Hello,
I would like to analyse a few things that I think must be adressed, all related to the incredible value of ME3 as a game. Relax, it doesn't have spoilers nor it's off-topic.
Why is ME3 so valuable? Is it graphics, soundrack, gameplay, story, characters? That is important, but you also have to think about the underlying value of this game:
1. Reaction. Whether you like it or not (ending), ME3 has managed to gather a big reaction among gamers (both positive and negative), because you can only get that if the product is controversial. In this case, the ending is controversial part of the product. The final outcome is that ME3 has turned itself into a "cult game" among fans and earned a spot in videogaming history. People still talk about that (for the good or for the bad), and will still do, because that is the nature of the game. Its historic value lies in its controversial ending. Would MEHEM or a conventional victory have been the ending, then probably nobody would be talking about ME3 right now, because reactions would have been homogeneous.
2. The integrated solo+multiplayer experience. At first nobody thought this was going to work (myself included). Proving us wrong has probably been one of the biggest successes of Bioware in its history. This is because the idea of these integrated experience lies in that Shepard is not the center of the Universe (yet he carries the most important decisions). The fact that most races join together to fight the threat of the galaxy is the reason of the multiplayer experience. You may like or not, but it has been a great success nonetheless, considering the low experience of bioware in multiplayer.
3. Support. Behind ME3 there has been a team constantly working on providing content for both SP and MP. It saddens me that there is no more content for the game, but it has been a year in which the team has worked very hard for the fans, and that has merit. I am not saying they are being altruistic, of course, they do it for money, but their efforts have to be acknowledged.
4. A complete saga within a generation. For many people this is not important, but for me it is. Having start and closure within a generation of consoles is of great value for the saga. With these, we can say that ME3 timing was correct, because if it had been released later, it could have been put on hold and been released for the next generation. We don't know for sure. But continuity is very important, and at least for me, it is painful to see the first game released on ps1, the second on ps2, the third on ps3/360, etc. Because people lose interest (and hope). Or taking the example to an extreme, seeing things like Starcraft I and having to wait 20 years to know the conclusion of the story. Sure it will sell well, but 20 years is too much to wait for a game. So, having managed to close the trilogy within only 6 years has been a success, in my opinion.
5. "A field experiment". In many regards you can see ME3 as an experiment. Now, experiments can be good or bad, but they always have an outcome, from which you can learn a lot. Not experimenting means you cannot advance because it is assumed that your current formula works. In this regard, Bioware deviated from its formula and brought a product which was controversial, was different from ME and ME2 and had multiplayer. From the outcome, Bioware has probably learned A LOT more than if they would have brought a game with ME2 gameplay, no MP and a happy conventional ending. This is good, because it is games like these that a company really learns with. It also shows that Bioware has "balls".
So, in conclusion, you may agree with me or not, but in my opinion the success of the game lies within those points, that people normally are not concerned with, but are really important.
On a personal note, I would like to show my bias and say that ME3 is one of the best games I have ever played. I want to thank Bioware for its amazing work and I hope they bring a great game for the next generation!
The great underlying value of ME3
Débuté par
billywaffles
, juin 02 2013 04:23
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#2
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 04:57
Ajensis
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There was an artist some years ago who displayed a horse that had been sliced up. It had quite a reaction from the public, sparking a debate on art itself.
Now, as I remember it, most people (of the general public) found it distasteful, while others defended the artist's freedom to express himself as he wished. I don't think a lot of people actually liked the art piece itself.
Experimenting and causing big reactions is not inherently a bad thing, but couldn't they have done it with a new game - and not least done it properly instead of squeezing it in the end of ME3? If they really wished to do something experimental with this game, it might've been better had they introduced it earlier in the game, and more smoothly. Not the brick-in-the-face method. Being provocative and surprising for the sake of a reaction doesn't sound like a good thing to me.
I agree (or mostly agree) with points 2-4
edit: oh, and your last paragraph too, of course!
Now, as I remember it, most people (of the general public) found it distasteful, while others defended the artist's freedom to express himself as he wished. I don't think a lot of people actually liked the art piece itself.
Experimenting and causing big reactions is not inherently a bad thing, but couldn't they have done it with a new game - and not least done it properly instead of squeezing it in the end of ME3? If they really wished to do something experimental with this game, it might've been better had they introduced it earlier in the game, and more smoothly. Not the brick-in-the-face method. Being provocative and surprising for the sake of a reaction doesn't sound like a good thing to me.
I agree (or mostly agree) with points 2-4
edit: oh, and your last paragraph too, of course!
Modifié par Ajensis, 02 juin 2013 - 04:58 .
#4
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 09:21
Mr. MannlyMan
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The underlying value of ME3 is that it's a fine example of what NOT to do in your third act. Ending things with an out-of-nowhere superweapon, leaving out vital plot info and packaging it as paid DLC, the lack of continuity and character closure, devs' blatant lies about content and subsequent fan disapproval, the plot holes, the theme swapping, etc....
Everything you listed isn't really of much value except for #4. Even the integrated multiplayer/solo isn't really noteworthy, since it's highly formulaic and a standard of modern shooters. Hell, it's not like Bioware didn't have the full backing of EA and access to a massive catalogue of programming talent already.
Everything you listed isn't really of much value except for #4. Even the integrated multiplayer/solo isn't really noteworthy, since it's highly formulaic and a standard of modern shooters. Hell, it's not like Bioware didn't have the full backing of EA and access to a massive catalogue of programming talent already.
#5
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 09:31
Fixers0
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It's not just ME3 but the entire series that can be seen as an expirment.
#6
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 09:39
Faust1979
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Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
The underlying value of ME3 is that it's a fine example of what NOT to do in your third act. Ending things with an out-of-nowhere superweapon, leaving out vital plot info and packaging it as paid DLC, the lack of continuity and character closure, devs' blatant lies about content and subsequent fan disapproval, the plot holes, the theme swapping, etc....
Everything you listed isn't really of much value except for #4. Even the integrated multiplayer/solo isn't really noteworthy, since it's highly formulaic and a standard of modern shooters. Hell, it's not like Bioware didn't have the full backing of EA and access to a massive catalogue of programming talent already.
boy you haters are a bunch of whiners the game provided lots of closure to plot points and characters. It's like some people didn't even pay attention to the games.
#7
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 09:41
Iakus
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Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
The underlying value of ME3 is that it's a fine example of what NOT to do in your third act. Ending things with an out-of-nowhere superweapon, leaving out vital plot info and packaging it as paid DLC, the lack of continuity and character closure, devs' blatant lies about content and subsequent fan disapproval, the plot holes, the theme swapping, etc....
Couldn't have said it better
#8
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 10:02
Redbelle
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BW didn't need to make a bittersweet ending. When a truely great game comes to the end of it's play. And that game is also the end of the trilogy......... and you want more game but know it's not going to happen, that's a bittersweet feeling that only the best games can illicit. Going all bittersweet in the narrative is like dangling a picture of a sad kitten in front of a depressed person. It just magnifies the feeling.
The other sad thing is that with all the changes going on in BW, I wonder if we will ever see this type of commitment to producing a multi arc series again. You cannot mistake the way ME 1 2 and 3 play in comparison to DMC 1 2 and 3......... ME integrates YOUR past game experiences into future ones. Now the project is effectively done I worry that ME4 will break away from this model of game development completely and offer a standard cover shooter with a dialogue wheel that sometimes shows up, sometimes doesn't.
Do agree that whatever the reaction, It did generate a large one. That shows alot of fan love and commitment did exist.
The other sad thing is that with all the changes going on in BW, I wonder if we will ever see this type of commitment to producing a multi arc series again. You cannot mistake the way ME 1 2 and 3 play in comparison to DMC 1 2 and 3......... ME integrates YOUR past game experiences into future ones. Now the project is effectively done I worry that ME4 will break away from this model of game development completely and offer a standard cover shooter with a dialogue wheel that sometimes shows up, sometimes doesn't.
Do agree that whatever the reaction, It did generate a large one. That shows alot of fan love and commitment did exist.
#9
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 10:08
Faust1979
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Redbelle wrote...
BW didn't need to make a bittersweet ending. When a truely great game comes to the end of it's play. And that game is also the end of the trilogy......... and you want more game but know it's not going to happen, that's a bittersweet feeling that only the best games can illicit. Going all bittersweet in the narrative is like dangling a picture of a sad kitten in front of a depressed person. It just magnifies the feeling.
The other sad thing is that with all the changes going on in BW, I wonder if we will ever see this type of commitment to producing a multi arc series again. You cannot mistake the way ME 1 2 and 3 play in comparison to DMC 1 2 and 3......... ME integrates YOUR past game experiences into future ones. Now the project is effectively done I worry that ME4 will break away from this model of game development completely and offer a standard cover shooter with a dialogue wheel that sometimes shows up, sometimes doesn't.
Do agree that whatever the reaction, It did generate a large one. That shows alot of fan love and commitment did exist.
I believe that after all the stuff that happens in the game and billions of lives lost and the things characters do to get to the ending going bittersweet is the only way it could have logcially concluded. The final hours of ME3 are an emotional ride I feel it ended exactly as it should have
#10
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 10:34
GreyLycanTrope
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Well you clearly didn't as the lack of closure was the issue the original cut(even Bioware stated as much), and far from the only issue the poster you quoted mentioned.Faust1979 wrote...
Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
The underlying value of ME3 is that it's a fine example of what NOT to do in your third act. Ending things with an out-of-nowhere superweapon, leaving out vital plot info and packaging it as paid DLC, the lack of continuity and character closure, devs' blatant lies about content and subsequent fan disapproval, the plot holes, the theme swapping, etc....
Everything you listed isn't really of much value except for #4. Even the integrated multiplayer/solo isn't really noteworthy, since it's highly formulaic and a standard of modern shooters. Hell, it's not like Bioware didn't have the full backing of EA and access to a massive catalogue of programming talent already.
boy you haters are a bunch of whiners the game provided lots of closure to plot points and characters. It's like some people didn't even pay attention to the games.
Modifié par Greylycantrope, 02 juin 2013 - 10:39 .
#11
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 11:02
sharkboy421
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I agree with your first four points OP but I'm not sure I understand the fifth. While I agree making ME a trilogy was something that hadn't really been tried on this scale before (and that could be seen as an experiment), I don't really see anything in ME3 as experimental.
If you are referring to the ending then I would still disagree with you. From my perspective, the endings were a cool idea and presented some very interesting thoughts and questions that certainly deserve taking a closer look at, but not in the context of ME. The endings felt very out of place for me and talked about things just simply did not fit.
This is where ME3 really fell down for me. There is nothing wrong with the ending but it is inappropriate and an example of poor story telling. Bioware obviously had an idea of what they wanted to do but failed to properly integrate it into the story they already had. Instead they kind of just bolted it onto the end and waved away any questions about it.
I still hold the ME trilogy in high regard but the ending of ME3 is, for me at least, the single largest factor that holds it back from being truly great.
If you are referring to the ending then I would still disagree with you. From my perspective, the endings were a cool idea and presented some very interesting thoughts and questions that certainly deserve taking a closer look at, but not in the context of ME. The endings felt very out of place for me and talked about things just simply did not fit.
This is where ME3 really fell down for me. There is nothing wrong with the ending but it is inappropriate and an example of poor story telling. Bioware obviously had an idea of what they wanted to do but failed to properly integrate it into the story they already had. Instead they kind of just bolted it onto the end and waved away any questions about it.
I still hold the ME trilogy in high regard but the ending of ME3 is, for me at least, the single largest factor that holds it back from being truly great.
#12
Posté 02 juin 2013 - 11:05
voteDC
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For me they remembered the bitter for the ending but forgot to add the sweet to the mix. All varies to personal opinion however, I can't stand the new Star Trek films but my friends love them.Faust1979 wrote...
I believe that after all the stuff that happens in the game and billions of lives lost and the things characters do to get to the ending going bittersweet is the only way it could have logcially concluded. The final hours of ME3 are an emotional ride I feel it ended exactly as it should have
The underlying value of Mass Effect 3, and the series as a whole to be honest, is making people realise that a story with player involvement in a video game doesn't have to end when it does. In fact you can bring that story on to the next in the franchise and keep things going.
Perhaps not the first game to do it but the one that got it right.
#13
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 01:10
FlamingBoy
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Mass Effect 3 was a fascinating opportunity that took a serious look at the game industry as we understand it. Issues such as deceptive marketing, conflict of interests, and most importantly the integrity of video games as an art form. These were all tackled in the months following me3, did it change anything, I am not sure. But my god it was an interesting experience.
#15
Guest_Super Saiyajin_*
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 07:28
Guest_Super Saiyajin_*
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Well BioWares "experiments" made me decide not to buy any games from them anymore.
They will see if it was "worth" it.
Good read btw.
They will see if it was "worth" it.
Good read btw.
Modifié par Super Saiyajin, 03 juin 2013 - 07:38 .
#16
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 10:07
MrFob
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ME3 is without a doubt a great game. It had superb gameplay, many memorable emotional moments, great character depiction and development and interesting side stories. The only point where ME3 was seriously lacking IMO was the main plot. However, this was a problem of the whole series, not just the third part.
All three ME games are in themselves brilliant, true master pieces, however, I think that as a trilogy they failed. The plot line throughout the trilogy is not consistent, despite the savegame import and part of the gameplay focus changes too drastically between the single iterations, not just combat but also things like the quest mechanics and the handling of dialogue for example (auto dialogue in ME3 was only a problem because it deviated so much from its predecessors in that area).
I am not saying that games shouldn't evolve throughout a series but in the case of ME, the sense of consistency got lost. Whether that was deliberate or by accident, I can't say (a bit of both I suspect) but I hope that BW (or anyone else who may want to create a trilogy) keeps that in mind for future products.
All three ME games are in themselves brilliant, true master pieces, however, I think that as a trilogy they failed. The plot line throughout the trilogy is not consistent, despite the savegame import and part of the gameplay focus changes too drastically between the single iterations, not just combat but also things like the quest mechanics and the handling of dialogue for example (auto dialogue in ME3 was only a problem because it deviated so much from its predecessors in that area).
I am not saying that games shouldn't evolve throughout a series but in the case of ME, the sense of consistency got lost. Whether that was deliberate or by accident, I can't say (a bit of both I suspect) but I hope that BW (or anyone else who may want to create a trilogy) keeps that in mind for future products.
#17
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 12:11
unnamedplayer
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Faust1979 wrote...
I believe that after all the stuff that happens in the game and billions of lives lost and the things characters do to get to the ending going bittersweet is the only way it could have logcially concluded. The final hours of ME3 are an emotional ride I feel it ended exactly as it should have
100% Agreed.
#18
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 06:17
billywaffles
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Thanks for the comments.
What I actually wanted to point out here was the underlying value of the game, not its story nor gameplay. There are thousands of threads already about that.
Moreover, I am refering specifically to the value of ME3, not the trilogy. I don't want to repeat myself, and discussing the ending is pointless here.
Some people say they won't buy any more games from bioware, yet they keep discussing them, so I assume there is still a hidden interest in future games? Care to explain a little? It´s like Nietzsche declaring himself atheist but always talking about god
.
What I actually wanted to point out here was the underlying value of the game, not its story nor gameplay. There are thousands of threads already about that.
Moreover, I am refering specifically to the value of ME3, not the trilogy. I don't want to repeat myself, and discussing the ending is pointless here.
Some people say they won't buy any more games from bioware, yet they keep discussing them, so I assume there is still a hidden interest in future games? Care to explain a little? It´s like Nietzsche declaring himself atheist but always talking about god
.
#19
Posté 03 juin 2013 - 10:57
voteDC
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I'll never say I wont buy a Bioware game again. What I can say though is that they've lost the 'buy without question' mentality I had about their games in the past.
Also for me you can't really separate the value of one of the trilogy from the rest of the franchise, so the 'value' of one does affect the value of the others.
Hopefully you'll forgive me for saying so but I find the support for the single player side to be a little woeful. Releasing more content is always nice but when they ignore glitches, such as Ashley/Marksman, you have to wonder just how much they care about supporting the game.
Also for me you can't really separate the value of one of the trilogy from the rest of the franchise, so the 'value' of one does affect the value of the others.
Hopefully you'll forgive me for saying so but I find the support for the single player side to be a little woeful. Releasing more content is always nice but when they ignore glitches, such as Ashley/Marksman, you have to wonder just how much they care about supporting the game.
