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#51
Titius.Vibius

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MOTpoetryION wrote...

OK whats has been nagging at me is . Are they really selling us DLC .Or are  they like .,
selling us 1\\\\\\\\2 or 3\\\\\\\\4  of the game and then selling the rest as DLC. Just to milk more
money out of us.
 
Personally i like to get a hard copy (as in CD) for my money . I don't like
this whole DLC  way of doing it . And i fear thats where the industry is headed  . Like they 
are trying  to eliminate the CD all together. i just get that feeling that ,that is where its leading to.

I know when DLC comes out months later its probably real NEW DLC but when they have  DLC
available the day of release. makes me think of my first comment.   What do you guys think on
these issues. If you have even thought about it , I'm just interested.   I just don't trust EA and
 wouldn't put it past them to do it .

thanks for sharing


Yes sir, your statement is true. Look at ME2, there's a free DLC and more DLCs coming on day one. Those separate DLCs they are selling now are part of the original game. It doesn't take a nuclear scientist to figure that out.

Modifié par Titius.Vibius, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:03 .


#52
CptPatch

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MOTpoetryION wrote...
We all have opinions on things but it doesn't mean mine is any better then yours or vise versa.

It seems (to me) that forums are populated by people evoking one of two different philosophies:
A) "Different" means "different".  There is no obligation to classify the differences as being "better" or "worse".  Viva la difference!
B) There's a Wrong way of doing something, and then there's my way

Unfortunately, it seems that the A people are a distinct minority.

***********
In regards to DLC and where it's coming from and where it's going:

TRUE anecdote
In the very early days of TSR (creators of D&D and AD&D), they started with a newsletter, The Strategic Review.  (T-S-R, it was no coincidence.)  After only 7 quarterly issues, the newsletter was replaced by The Dragon monthly magazine.  Because of the immense and growing popularity of D&D and AD&D, it was THE place for people to catch up on what was new and to submit their game ideas. 

Anyone that has played the paper-and-pencil version of D&D and/or AD&D know that a HUGE amount of what was available were umpteen gazillion modules.  The source material for many/most of those modules goes back to The Dragon: Every year the magazine had its annual "Design Your Own Module" contest.  The winner had the great satisfaction of having his module published and he became an honest-to-goodness published game designer.  And he got a whomping 1% royalty on the sales.  [At a time when E. Gary Gygax was pulling down a industry-leading 14% royalty I might add.  Ahh, the stories I could tell.....] 

Now, I laid all this out so you can properly appreciate these next points:

There were thousands of entries each time the contest ran.

In the rules for entry there was the statement, "All submissions become the exclusive property of TSR, Inc."

And all that material cost TSR nothing.  Sure the very large majority of submissions were c***, but there were always a couple hundred decent submissions.  MANY of those were reworked, details changed, and then supposedly "written" by whichever design staffer EGG liked currently.  But the bottomline was that there was always a LOT of game material ready for final layout; the presses were seldom idle at TSR.  (The actual constraint was cashflow -- which eventually killed TSR.  Too many parasites and not enough worker bees to keep the hive humming.)

******
Now the reason I mention all of that anecdote is because of how it bears on DLC.  And toolsets.  And player-made mods.

Ahh.  More than likely, you're "already there".

BioWare -- and most every other popular game company -- has no lack of material to work with to keep the DLC pipeline flowing.  The main design team works on the basic framework, while keeping control of the game universe.  Sort of like, they set the "policy" that everyone must follow.  And, believe me, that is, in and of itself, a HUMONGOUS job.  What they produce is an iceberg: we only see about 10% of all they do.  But that other 90% MUST be there to keep the thing afloat.

But DLCs are like those AD&D modules: ideas that are mapped out to be implemented into the larger game world.  Creating one from scratch is almost exactly like writing a book from scratch.  It's doable, but seriously time consuming.  UNLESS someone hands the writer a VERY detailed outline at the beginning of the process.  Then it's just a matter of fleshing out the synopsis.  And that makes it like 75% of the project is already done.

Instead of scrambling around trying to figure out, "What would make a good story, something that our fans want to see?", _WE_ have already told them.  (That there is literally the #2 reason why so many games are now backed by discussion forums.)  Our topics of discussion inevitably touch on, "Wouldn't it be great if,,,"  The mods that are created and become popular show the company what to put into the next edition of the game.  And the player creations with the toolset fill in an immense amount of game "canvas".

LAST MAJOR POINT  [All together now!  "Thank God!"]
The main design team WILL be responsible for actual expansions.  But more than likely, little DLCs will be thrown together by "new recruits" and interns that have maybe one staffer checking up on them periodically to make sure they stay on track.  Then whatever the DLC teams produce will get polished by the pros before being released.  Be assured that on any popular game, there will be no lack of "volunteers" to be bottom-of-the-food-chain apprentice game designers.  (Almost like working at McDonalds, in a way.  Plus I'm sure you've heard about how, as an industry standard, game designers have to put in a HUGE number of hours each week.)  The actual bottleneck in releasing DLC content is freeing up enough of the main team to do that polishing on what the DLC produces.

[Hmm.  Now I'm wondering how much of the RtO snafu stems from....^^^^]

#53
Wournos

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I pretty much agree with what I read on the first page. I am new to this type of game releases and I have to say I do not like to spend 700 Swedish Kronor on an unfinished game (Assassin's Creed 2) and have to possibly pay for the missing fillings. I don't mind DLCs as long as I don't have to pay too much for it. I did however buy the DA:O's Warden's Keep (63 Skr is really pushing it!) because, if I'm not mistaken, it was supposed to give me access to storage for items that I have collected and want to keep but not carry in my backpack. I have yet to see this though.

For the conspiracy fanatics out there. How about this. The release of games with bugs still in them offers free QA for the developer. Not only do we pay a lot for the game, we, if we choose to report bugs to have a better gaming experience, are used as free labour to fix what wasn't fixed. This applies to all developers and not just BioWare. I find that highly annoying, especially since I am trying to get into the games business and QA.

#54
zalderach

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Yeah, they are robbing us! Look at great games like mw2 that's like 7 hours of gameplay, and they had no DLC! Clearly Bioware is kicking us in the balls and demanding that we thank them afterward with this measly 50hour game.

#55
Bonkz

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Titius.Vibius wrote...

MOTpoetryION wrote...

OK whats has been nagging at me is . Are they really selling us DLC .Or are  they like .,
selling us 1\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\2 or 3\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\4  of the game and then selling the rest as DLC. Just to milk more
money out of us.
 
Personally i like to get a hard copy (as in CD) for my money . I don't like
this whole DLC  way of doing it . And i fear thats where the industry is headed  . Like they 
are trying  to eliminate the CD all together. i just get that feeling that ,that is where its leading to.

I know when DLC comes out months later its probably real NEW DLC but when they have  DLC
available the day of release. makes me think of my first comment.   What do you guys think on
these issues. If you have even thought about it , I'm just interested.   I just don't trust EA and
 wouldn't put it past them to do it .

thanks for sharing


Yes sir, your statement is true. Look at ME2, there's a free DLC and more DLCs coming on day one. Those separate DLCs they are selling now are part of the original game. It doesn't take a nuclear scientist to figure that out.


The fact that you can IGNORE Wardens keep DLC (AND Stone prisoner, but i don't mention it cause it's free) and play the game fully without even having to know about that place proves quite the opposite. And i'm not even a nuclear scientist, imagine that.

Modifié par Bonkz, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:22 .


#56
Mordaedil

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After all, 50 hours is just 7 hours seven times over. It's like they gave us one seventh of a REAL game!

#57
Daigowedd

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The Dead Sea Scrolls actually say this:



"And there will come a time of blood and dragons, a time when the new **** is upon us. And once were they warned that additional content may require an online connection and a credit card, yet still the consumers did not listen and all who were not written into the book of fanboys were cast into the lake of eternal fire which much wailing and gnashing of teeth."



It loses something in translation, I think.

#58
WarlordThor

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Also, was Bioware behind 9/11? Was Georg Zoeller the shooter on the grassy knoll? Did David Gaider write the dead sea scrolls?


Nothing like being offensive, as usual.

I wonder just how ignorant the people treating the OP like a conspiracy theorist are. The OP's main concern, that dlc is the way the industry is going, is pretty much supported by most companies statements. Many retailers are moving towards digital distribution. Many game companies are embracing it and the era of the hard copy disk is slowly leaving.

As for the fact they only sold us 2/3 of the game or so, of course this is true. I find it hillarious that anyone would posit otherwise. DLC adds to the game, and had been planned from the start. Thus BW went into it knowing they were only selling us a portion of the full game. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarilly. The original game would have been the full game had they not decided prior to its release to continue with dlc. But is this a fact supported by logic, that the people brown nosing BW need to accept? Yes. To recap: They sold us only part of the game, this was intentional as they always planned to release dlc, and one should be able to accept this fact without thinking it means there is a conspiracy or it is a rip off.

#59
grallonsphere

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Where can I download the DLCs I already bought? The game isn't downloading them even when left logged in all night...









G.

#60
Bonkz

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WarlordThor wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Also, was Bioware behind 9/11? Was Georg Zoeller the shooter on the grassy knoll? Did David Gaider write the dead sea scrolls?


Nothing like being offensive, as usual.

I wonder just how ignorant the people treating the OP like a conspiracy theorist are. The OP's main concern, that dlc is the way the industry is going, is pretty much supported by most companies statements. Many retailers are moving towards digital distribution. Many game companies are embracing it and the era of the hard copy disk is slowly leaving.

As for the fact they only sold us 2/3 of the game or so, of course this is true. I find it hillarious that anyone would posit otherwise. DLC adds to the game, and had been planned from the start. Thus BW went into it knowing they were only selling us a portion of the full game. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarilly. The original game would have been the full game had they not decided prior to its release to continue with dlc. But is this a fact supported by logic, that the people brown nosing BW need to accept? Yes. To recap: They sold us only part of the game, this was intentional as they always planned to release dlc, and one should be able to accept this fact without thinking it means there is a conspiracy or it is a rip off.




I can't say i agree with you. DLC is an extra adventure that adds to the FULL game you already have. If Bioware decides today to cancel RtO and even remove Warden's keep, the game still remains complete. Adding future content doesn't make a game incomplete. It is there to add extra adventures for the players and of course a way for a company to get payed, i won't say no to that. DLC is indeed the future as you say but in DA:O's case the DLC provided was totally seperate from the full game we already got. I have played DA without stone prisoner or warden's keep enabled and the game is perfectly fine. 
I have many complains about the game myself. There are things i did not like and would like to see them changed. Have also noted some on past threads. But concerning the game as a whole it sure is complete if you ask me.

You can't stop a developer from thinking about future content. Bioware might have been working on DA 2 before DA:O was already out. I guess we are getting half a game since DA 2 was in their minds at that time.

I find it hilarious that anyone would posit otherwise


Some might consider that offensive as well.

Modifié par Bonkz, 20 janvier 2010 - 01:25 .


#61
Bonkz

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grallonsphere wrote...

Where can I download the DLCs I already bought? The game isn't downloading them even when left logged in all night...




G.


I'm not sure what the problem might be. You should try at the technical support forum. You might get some answers there. Hope you can solve your problem.

#62
SheffSteel

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Just posting on the "Dragon Age = complete game" subject:-

Dragon Age is a complete game! Yes, Shale was cut, and then made available separately. But... I've been in the games industry since 1992 and I can tell you that content and features get cut from games all the time. The difference is, you almost never hear about it. In a sense we got lucky in the case of DAO - seeing Shale ingame is a bit like getting to see the director's cut of a film, and see all those scenes that otherwise would've ended up on the cutting room floor. The best part is, most of us didn't even have to pay to do so!

The worst part is, people don't respond with gratitude, goodwill, or even good faith towards Bioware. Instead we see suspicion and conspiracy theories.

#63
YohkoOhno

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TRUE anecdote
In the very early days of TSR (creators of D&D and AD&D), they started with a newsletter, The Strategic Review.  (T-S-R, it was no coincidence.)  After only 7 quarterly issues, the newsletter was replaced by The Dragon monthly magazine.  Because of the immense and growing popularity of D&D and AD&D, it was THE place for people to catch up on what was new and to submit their game ideas. 

Anyone that has played the paper-and-pencil version of D&D and/or AD&D know that a HUGE amount of what was available were umpteen gazillion modules.  The source material for many/most of those modules goes back to The Dragon: Every year the magazine had its annual "Design Your Own Module" contest.  The winner had the great satisfaction of having his module published and he became an honest-to-goodness published game designer.  And he got a whomping 1% royalty on the sales.  [At a time when E. Gary Gygax was pulling down a industry-leading 14% royalty I might add.  Ahh, the stories I could tell.....] 

Now, I laid all this out so you can properly appreciate these next points:

There were thousands of entries each time the contest ran.

In the rules for entry there was the statement, "All submissions become the exclusive property of TSR, Inc."

And all that material cost TSR nothing.  Sure the very large majority of submissions were c***, but there were always a couple hundred decent submissions.  MANY of those were reworked, details changed, and then supposedly "written" by whichever design staffer EGG liked currently.  But the bottomline was that there was always a LOT of game material ready for final layout; the presses were seldom idle at TSR.  (The actual constraint was cashflow -- which eventually killed TSR.  Too many parasites and not enough worker bees to keep the hive humming.)


I must say I have some skepticism about this.  While I only knew EGG later in life after he left TSR, he told me several things about the company which conflict with this.

But even if Gary's own memories are biased, you miss a few other key points from the historical perspective.

1)  TSR was named Tactical Studies Rules before they even printed the Strategic Review.  They did not get the name from the magazine, they already have the name.

2)  Regarding the design a dungeon contest--well, I started reading Dragon in 1980 and don't have memories of that.  But assuming they did have those contests (I do have the 250 issue archive on CD-ROM, so I can check later)...I'm not sure many people got published.  TSR did not publish many modules until after 1980, and most modules were the G-D series and S series.  Only a handful of people got published, and many of them weren't freelancers but TSR staff.  So, if you are going from the early days of (A)D&D, this seems mostly inaccurate, as the amateur submissions were not really exploited as much as you say.

#64
Sylixe

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Also, was Bioware behind 9/11? Was Georg Zoeller the shooter on the grassy knoll? Did David Gaider write the dead sea scrolls?


Lemme help you out with that stuff Sloth :)

No..it was cheney, Oswald did it all by himself Posted Image and more than likely a Maybe.

Hope that clears it up for you . Posted Image

#65
AlmondBrown

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Yes, you bought 1/2 a game and now you will buy the other 1/2 via DLC. Makes ya feel pretty f'ing silly doesn't it?



Don't worry though. Your Tin Foil hat is in the mail...

#66
wonko33

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As of yet I have played about 3 games that had DLC (Oblivion, Fallout 3, DAO) and none of them felt incomplete or lacking without the downloadable content.

I bought a few for Oblivion, some were cool, some were just an extra dungeon but all were expandable.

As for Fallout 3 I did not buy any and do not feel cheated, the story felt complete and without plot holes.

The only thing I would have missed with DAO is Shale, but since it was free....



Now I am worried that some shady companies might do as the OP stated, I have not seen that as of yet except in "free" games that use DLC as a business model (D&D online, and BF Heroes)

#67
CptPatch

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YohkoOhno wrote...
I must say I have some skepticism about this.  While I only knew EGG later in life after he left TSR, he told me several things about the company which conflict with this.


Reminiscing moved to PM.

#68
hazelrock

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What does concern me is the file size of the DLC, if it is small does'nt that mean it is on the disc and the "DLC Purchase" is really just unlocking it and allowing the extra code to run? Seen something about this in a gaming magazine for another game for XBox recently.

#69
zalderach

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All DLC for DA is downloads, even the single items type of DLC.
The thing here is EA is not doing to great right now, and they are trying to make money on games, but with the sense of entitlement you kids have I'm surprised anyone makes any money on games, especially on the PC. How long and how good must a game be before any more content is considered worth paying for?
EA and Bioware are just trying to make a buck here, No one is forcing anyone to buy this DLC. If you don't want it don't ****ing buy it.

Modifié par zalderach, 22 janvier 2010 - 05:15 .


#70
BeljoraDien

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MOTpoetryION wrote...
Are they really selling us DLC...

To answer your original question, no, they currently are not.
There's some free DLC... there's the promise of future DLC... otherwise, no.

#71
DJ_Zombot

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I don't mind the DLC concept, but I REALLY don't like advertisements for it in the game itself. The guy in your camp (I think for warden's keep?), and the icon on your map (Sulcher's Pass?),–both are immersion breakers. "Ooo....what's that, the dark keep of such and such...will you please help us....please...oh, also, dig out your credit card, log in, etc...." That really grinds my gears...

#72
Peeker2009

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Gorgeous woman/man runs up to you out of breath:



"My grandmother is being roughed-up by bandits. Please, handsome knight, go to her assistance!"

(Download DLC?)

"I can't stop right now, I'm sorry"

"You, sir, are a coward. I have lost all faith in humankind" *falls to the ground weeping



(just kidding....but one day?)




#73
Sidney

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wonko33 wrote...

As of yet I have played about 3 games that had DLC (Oblivion, Fallout 3, DAO) and none of them felt incomplete or lacking without the downloadable content.


This to me is the main issue. I felt like, sans any DLC, I got great value of the the DAO game. I felt the same way about FO3 and Oblivion to a lesser degree although that was  game problem and not related to the DLC.

I felt like Point Lookout was a fantastic bit of DLC for FO3 but Operation Anchorage was awful. PL did a great job of feeling like it extended the game world while still being a part of the world. I don't think that any of the DAO DLC's is as good at doing that as Point Lookout was.

#74
WarlordThor

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Bonkz wrote...

I can't say i agree with you. DLC is an extra adventure that adds to the FULL game you already have. If Bioware decides today to cancel RtO and even remove Warden's keep, the game still remains complete. Adding future content doesn't make a game incomplete. It is there to add extra adventures for the players and of course a way for a company to get payed, i won't say no to that. DLC is indeed the future as you say but in DA:O's case the DLC provided was totally seperate from the full game we already got. I have played DA without stone prisoner or warden's keep enabled and the game is perfectly fine. 
I have many complains about the game myself. There are things i did not like and would like to see them changed. Have also noted some on past threads. But concerning the game as a whole it sure is complete if you ask me.

You can't stop a developer from thinking about future content. Bioware might have been working on DA 2 before DA:O was already out. I guess we are getting half a game since DA 2 was in their minds at that time.

I find it hilarious that anyone would posit otherwise


Some might consider that offensive as well.


Your argument is logically flawed. The point I was making is simple, and thus. When you add something to a package, there is now a new definition of the "full" package. Let's try an analogy. You start life with no kids. Then you have a kid. Your full family is not just yourself. If you remove your kid from the picture, your family is no longer full. Your full family is you and your kid.

Thus logically, if dlc is planned at all, or even given, the initial game is NOT the full game. Again, this does not meat BW is cheating anyone. They are still giving a ton of content in the initial release. But it is not the FULL game when dlc is planned and distributed.

And yes, people who cannot grasp concepts will find that offensive if I laugh at them. But it is a different kind of offensive than using national trajedies in which many innocents died as sarcasm, at least in my opinion.

#75
CptPatch

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WarlordThor wrote...
Thus logically, if dlc is planned at all, or even given, the initial game is NOT the full game. Again, this does not meat BW is cheating anyone. They are still giving a ton of content in the initial release. But it is not the FULL game when dlc is planned and distributed.

I'm not comfortable with your analogy either.  Try this one:

You have a tree.  It is, at this moment, a complete tree.  It has branches and roots and leaves and whatever else is necessary to make it a tree.  BUT....

....The tree can grow, adding more branches, more leaves, more roots.  Does that fact that it _can_ grow make the younger version of itself less of a tree?

We buy a game.  It has a beginning (roots), a middle (branches) and an end (leaves).  IF WE CHOOSE TO NOT FEED THE TREE (no watering or fertilizer) the tree will NOT become that larger future version.  Does that diminish what we have already?  As long as you have that beginning, middle, and end, it is as complete as it needs to be.  The only real argument, in my opinion, is whether or not we have been overcharged for what we got.