416 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Going back to Bioware's data release, we see that 92% cure the Genophage, 64% with Wreav in charge.

Think about that for a minute. Non-import playthroughs start with Wrex dead and Maelon's data having never been recovered, meaning the Genophage arc will invariably end with Wreav as the sole leader of the Krogan. Wreav vows bloody revenge on the rest of the galaxy prior to the dispersal of the cure. And 92% cure it anyway.

What this tells me is that a lot of people out there thoughtlessly click the top of the wheel without thinking for themselves about what they're actually doing; about what is actually right or wrong. Every "Let's Play" I've ever seen on YouTube features the user doing just this, even, comically, as the voice-over questions why Paragon is compelling them to do certain things. Bioware takes the time to come up with moral quagmires for players to navigate, and players in turn defer moral judgement to whoever positioned the dialogue options on the wheel. The Reputation system introduced in ME3 rendered Paragon/Renegade essentially meaningless, but many still conform to it at every turn.

Going back to Dragon Age: Origins, there was no karma meter. No Paragon/Renegade. Players had to inspect their options and decide for themselves what was right or wrong in accordance with their own conscience. A Persuasion check could in one circumstance save a life; and in another, convince a dwarven mother to abandon her baby in the Deep Roads, so players couldn't reflexively click those, either.

Should the next Mass Effect title, if any, do away with the Paragon/Renegade system and go back to a system like in Origins?

Poll here.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 juin 2013 - 11:47 .

[dreamgazer]

Yeah, I think we need to drop that arbitrary morality system.

I do like the approval rating in Origins, though.

[Reborn Raven]

I think it should be. I felt like some Renegade options were really not "bad" or "evil" in my opinion. Just a tough choice.

[Khelish]

Yes. Kotor had it right, Dragon Age had it right, Mass Effect has too many people mindlessly adhering to one side or the other.

[TheBlackBaron]

Total and unequivocal yes. Removing the morality system from Dragon Age was one of Bioware's best decisions, as it led to a lot of real debate about many decisions instead of what often occurred in Mass Effect, where people naturally assumed X had to be the good decision because it was the Paragon one.

Like dreamgazer I'm also somewhat fond of the approval system, and have been since Obsidian implemented Influence in Kotor II. I do think the naming could be somewhat better - I like what Rival is meant to imply, but for too many people the name and the color means they simply mentally replace it with Renegade or Evil or any of the other "bad" ends of the scales Bioware has used.

Simply using positive and negative, without any other symbolism to them, would probably create the most "neutral" measure of such a scale.

[AresKeith]

After ME3, I would want them to.try something else

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I personally like the idea of a morality system, though granted, I would like it to be a bit more ambiguous.

I do paragon options a lot because they really are strong, innovative means to solve a problem.

I'm an end-justifies-the-means, machiavellian true neutral guy, but win-win scenario's are still very acceptable.

I would like them to take a more 'Witcher 2' style though.

I will admit, there was a lot of pure-paragon's out there who pretty much blindly picked the upper left-hand option without thinking throughout the entire trilogy.

The game didn't really punish that.

I think gamers should be punished for certain actions, regardless of whether they think it's a good thing or not.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 juin 2013 - 12:01 .

[andy6915]

I think it should be thrown out. I remember I did a post once about this very subject.

http://social.biowar...ndex/14910580/2

andy69156915 wrote...

I agree with the thread's point. Look at Dragon Age, lots of choices and things you can say, and nothing it called a good or evil choice. Sure, some party members might get angry and sometimes try to kill you for doing something they can't tolerate. But even so, that was just party members sticking to their characters, and the game itself did not judge you. There was no "good or evil" or "paragon or renegade" black and white choice, there was just... Choice. It was the most freedom I've ever had in a Bioware game, I could do or say whatever I wanted without having to worry about getting "morality points", and being a neutral character didn't make me fail persuasion options merely because I did one too many nice or mean things up to that point. I could say what I wanted and when I wanted, and not have some stupid alignment bar move and make me fail a conversation later. I didn't have to worry about sticking to being ultra nice or ultra mean just so I wouldn't be screwed later on, I could just roleplay as I saw fit.

I truly do think Mass Effect as a whole would have been objectively better without a morality system. Just throw the whole "paragon and renegade" thing out, keep the reputation system, and we're good.

andy69156915 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

They shouldn't get rid of Paragon and Renegade completely...
It's useful for role-playing a hero or anti-hero, and makes finding the right option for the moment quicker and easier...

No it's not. I role-play far easier as whatever I want to in Dragon Age then I ever could in Mass Effect. If I want to roleplay as a jerk with a heart of gold, acting like a dick while still doing the right thing even if I act annoyed about it (one of my favorite archetypes to play as in DA:O), I'm screwed. I end up too neutral, with not enough points into either morality side to do any persuasion options. Again, I either have to play goody two shoes or I have to play as jerkass. No in betweens, no role-playing, just sticking to either the bottom or top options to make sure I don't nerf my persuasion abilities. That isn't role playing in any sense of the word.

ME3 at least did things right in making my morality not effect persuasion and making it based on rep. But at that point, the paragon and renegade bars are, at best, just there for show. It's purely there just to pretend they didn't throw the old crappy system from ME2 out.

Besides, even in ME1 where persuasion skills didn't depend on me sticking to only one dialog direction the whole game, it's still annoying. I just want to choose and have the effects be on the world itself, not have some running tally marking whether I've been a good boy or a bad boy. I don't need a bar and the game keeping track to know if my character's on the nice side or not. I didn't an alignment bar in Dragon Age to know the kind of character I'm role-playing, and I wouldn't need one in ME if it lacked one. Alignment makes role-playing worse, not better. Heck, the alignment system is ultimately the reason no one ever picked neutral options, causing Bioware to completely remove them in ME3.

That post and my reply to someone in that thread sums up my thoughts for this thread.

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 juin 2013 - 12:16 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Kind of funny... so far, almost everyone who has taken the time to comment has spoken against the inclusion of Paragon/Renegade in future titles. Some say they're on the fence. In the poll, however, it's almost one-for-one for or against so far, with those voting for its inclusion not giving voice to their reasoning.

Seems like the same kind of rote paragon behavior this thread was created to address...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 03 juin 2013 - 12:19 .

[andy6915]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Kind of funny... so far, almost everyone who has taken the time to comment has spoken against the inclusion of Paragon/Renegade in future titles. Some say they're on the fence. In the poll, however, it's almost one-for-one for or against so far, with those voting for its inclusion not giving voice to their reasoning.

Seems like the same kind of rote paragon behavior this thread was created to address...

...I didn't even see the poll. I kinda skipped your post to throw my own opinion out there. I didn't need convincing of your stance because I share it too, so why bother reading the post meant to convince people? Most of the people who agree probably skipped too, and only the people who needed convincing read the post and saw the poll.

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[Jafroboy]

Yes, I made a thread about it ages ago, Paragon/Renegade makes people pick something just because its paragon or renegade, not because they think its the best thing to do. Theres even a tect on the loading screen in ME2 encouraging people to only pick one side, just to get the most points, and be the "ultimate badass" or !ultimate hero"! Its like a hand holder for people who dont know how to make decisions, it removes the actual CHOICE from choices. Thats why I always ignored it and played paragade.

It also makes no sense that wether you have to be nice or nasty enough to be able to persuade people, how does the fact I robbed a guy once, mean I can persuade a crowd that Tali is innocent?

The best reputation system I've seen is Oblivions, it has a little thing called fame and notoriety, this works cos it aknowledges that its based off what people THINK rather than some arbitrary code of what is good and bad that the players may not agree with. Bioware could get away with that with the light and dark side in KOTOR, because the force was an actual existing entity, implied to be semi-sentient. But it doesnt make sense to have a meta alignment meter in a game without a sentient backing it up.

[KENNY4753]

I like the Paragon/Renegade feature but it could be vastly improved. Going to a DAO style list dialogue would do that. That way people wont just pick the upper right option because they know it is paragon.

I would also like an approval system in the next ME game similiar to DAO. It bugged me that you could be a complete ass in the ME games and for the most part no matter what you squad loved you and would not leave you/betray you.

[DeinonSlayer]

andy69156915 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Kind of funny... so far, almost everyone who has taken the time to comment has spoken against the inclusion of Paragon/Renegade in future titles. Some say they're on the fence. In the poll, however, it's almost one-for-one for or against so far, with those voting for its inclusion not giving voice to their reasoning.

Seems like the same kind of rote paragon behavior this thread was created to address...

...I didn't even see the poll. I kinda skipped your post to throw my own opinion out there. I didn't need convincing of your stance because I share it too, so why bother reading the post meant to convince people? Most of the people who agree probably skipped too, and only the people who needed convincing read the post and saw the poll.

What I'm saying is that I see people voting to continue including Paragon/Renegade, but nobody is actually explaining why they're voting that way. I'd like to see their opinions.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 03 juin 2013 - 12:26 .

[Phatose]

There's nothing innately wrong with Paragon/Renegade. They just need to actually use it properly.

Remove the reputation checks from dialogue options - or leave them in as a fallback only, and have dialogue option availability based on previous actions in quests.

More then anything though - make Paragon actions occasionally come back and bite you in the ass. The fact that they never do is one of the huge flaws with Paragon/Renegade and undermines the entire system. The entire concept of Renegade is "Anything to get the job done" - but the game is set up in such a way that doing things the nice, noble way always gets results just as well. It totally screws up the morality system when you never, ever, ever have to worry about your good actions causing bad results.


Edit:  Additionally, it can add a bunch to the game if they make more use of it.  As it stands, high paragon/renegade gets you dialogue options and scars...and that's it.  The world should actually notice.  If you're a shining beacon of humanity, people should be far more willing to ask for your help without a reward to offer.  If you're a badass who will do anything to get the job done - and who's famous for that - have the occassional baddy just walk away. 

It can add a lot to the game, I think.  It just didn't because of the details.

Modifié par Phatose, 03 juin 2013 - 12:30 .

[SlottsMachine]

I for one am against people making baseless generalizations about other forum users.

[Steelcan]

It definitely needs to be refined, if not scrapped completely.

Perhaps randomizing the options on the wheel would help this situation. Not having the options in the same place time after time would be a good starting point.

But on the whole, I'd prefer if the system was scrapped.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

More then anything though - make Paragon actions occasionally come back and bite you in the ass. The fact that they never do is one of the huge flaws with Paragon/Renegade and undermines the entire system. The entire concept of Renegade is "Anything to get the job done" - but the game is set up in such a way that doing things the nice, noble way always gets results just as well. It totally screws up the morality system when you never, ever, ever have to worry about your good actions causing bad results.

I strongly agree with this, and that extends beyond Mass Effect. For instance, in DA:O, I think it should have bitten the player in the ass if they rode off to the Circle of Magi instead of taking one of the two options presented to them for dealing with Connor. Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as Paragon. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 03 juin 2013 - 12:51 .

[Karlone123]

Yes, looking like a terminator reject was cool but taking away optional scars was not cool.

[Jorji Costava]

As far as the genophage, I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that it's simply a matter of people clicking the top of the wheel every time. Maybe some people are just deontologists, objecting to the genophage on the grounds that it unjustly punishes current generations for the mistakes of past ones, or on the grounds that it's wrong to restrict the rights of a group on the basis of what they might do in the future. Finally, lots of people just have a strong aversion to the idea of an invasive biological agent being used by one party to achieve a desired result on a second party without that second party's consent. The incredibly strong resistance to synthesis on these boards should have taught us that much.

Concerning the P/R system, I've said before that it's mostly an excrescence of the light side/dark side system of KOTOR rather than the idealism vs. pragmatism mechanic it purports to be. Besides the consequence-free nature of paragon decisions, there's also the fact that many renegade decisions are sociopathic rather than pragmatic (witness the full renegade resolution to the Anoleis situation on Noveria). I wouldn't say that the system is imbalanced in favor of paragons (or at least, not to the degree that many would argue), but it's artificial and ought to be done away with.

[Steelcan]

@above, anyone who cures the genophage with only Wreav in charge needs immediate help.

Modifié par Steelcan, 03 juin 2013 - 01:08 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

More then anything though - make Paragon actions occasionally come back and bite you in the ass. The fact that they never do is one of the huge flaws with Paragon/Renegade and undermines the entire system. The entire concept of Renegade is "Anything to get the job done" - but the game is set up in such a way that doing things the nice, noble way always gets results just as well. It totally screws up the morality system when you never, ever, ever have to worry about your good actions causing bad results.

I strongly agree with this, and that extends beyond Mass Effect. For instance, in DA:O, I think it should have bitten the player in the ass if they rode off to the Circle of Magi instead of taking one of the two options presented to them for dealing with Connor. Right now, it's the "no-cost" option, the "safe" option - what, in Mass Effect, would more likely than not be treated as Paragon. However, we're told the round-trip from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower takes over a week. By the time the Warden got back, I wouldn't think it inappropriate to find Redcliffe Village once again came under attack from the demon's waves of undead, thanks to the Warden's compulsive need to save everyone overriding expediency in a time-sensitive situation.

Careful.

You might ****** off David.

Lack of 'meaningful choice' and 'players shouldn't be punished for doing what they think is right' (he makes that a double standard. If I get punished for doing what I think is right, it's because I and my Shepard are stupid).

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 juin 2013 - 01:29 .

[DeinonSlayer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Careful.

You might ****** off David.

Lack of 'meaningful choice' and 'players shouldn't be punished for doing what they think is right' (he makes that a double standard. If I get punished for doing what I think is right, it's because I and my Shepard are stupid).

Ah, yes, "heroism"...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 03 juin 2013 - 01:35 .

[Only-Twin]

It should be thrown out. We don't need a meter to keep track of our choices. Instead of good or bad, the choices in the game should be deeper and the player should have to really think about it.

[David7204]

For choices to be meaningful, 'good' choices overwhelmingly need to lead to 'good' outcomes and vice-versa.

That is really just the end of it.

Having 'good' choices lead to crappy outcomes is the exact same kind of thematic betrayal that's behind the hatred of the endings.

Modifié par David7204, 03 juin 2013 - 04:23 .