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Should Paragon/Renegade be dropped from the next Mass Effect title?


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#326
David7204

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actions can be subjective. You're going to try and twist this and say that by punishing an action, I'm breaking the subjectiveness of the action as another person might see it. I can already see where you're going to go with this.

It's a moral grey area. 

But the action you've dictated is pretty straightforward. You're killing a person and taking their money. Why? Because you want their money? 

That really wasn't necessary, now was it? 

Why'd you do it David? You're a murderer. Why'd you murder that person David?


Let's say I'm a ultilitarian. I believe the world would be a net happier place with you gone. I believe that money will make me happier than it made you. Thus, killing you and stealing your money is justified.

It's a moral grey idea. Actions are subjective. What right do you have to punish me for that?

Modifié par David7204, 05 juin 2013 - 02:25 .


#327
David7204

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Dextro Milk wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So, if I want to drink a glass of milk, but you want to dump it in the sink, are you wrong to want to rob me of drinking my milk? Or do you think that my right to drink milk trumps your right to dump it?


What do you think?

That's not a sarcastic question. I geniuinely want to know what you believe.

#328
Dextro Milk

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David7204 wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So, if I want to drink a glass of milk, but you want to dump it in the sink, are you wrong to want to rob me of drinking my milk? Or do you think that my right to drink milk trumps your right to dump it?


What do you think?

That's not a sarcastic question. I geniuinely want to know what you believe.

I asked ye first.

#329
dreamgazer

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You drink your dextro milk. You drink it up.

#330
David7204

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Yes, it would be wrong to rob you of the milk.

#331
HiddenInWar

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One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?

#332
dreamgazer

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HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


And milk.  Don't forget the milk. 

#333
Dextro Milk

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dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


And milk.  Don't forget the milk. 

The sweet milk... Mmm...

#334
DeinonSlayer

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David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yes. Exhibit A: thread title.


Okay. Just to be absolutely clear. You're admitting that a choice being 'colored by somebody else's judgement' is not a problem at all?

I'm acknowledging that I am not writing the game - the game is written to give players options based on how the writers suspect (with limitations) players would react to a situation. There isn't necessarily one "right" thing to do in a given situation, one "right" stance to hold.

I'm simply suggesting that the next time around, the devs could step back and let the players judge what is right or wrong for themselves, removing the immediate carrot/stick dynamic of the morality meter. This, mind you, is a far cry from removing consequences for decisions altogether.

Frame these questions - Genophage, Cerberus, Quarian/Geth, Collector Base - with the exact same dialogue options we have now, only without the morality meter staring over the player's shoulder, and with dialogue on the wheel scrambled so you have to find the response you want to give each time. How differently would players behave?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 juin 2013 - 02:34 .


#335
AresKeith

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HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


Isn't it obvious?

#336
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


One also wonders where this conversation can go. :wizard:

#337
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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This thread made me thirsty, so I went and drank some milk myself.

#338
HiddenInWar

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dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


And milk.  Don't forget the milk. 


Dextro Milk is easily my favorite new member

@keith yeah, I get where it originated from now :P

#339
MassivelyEffective0730

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David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actions can be subjective. You're going to try and twist this and say that by punishing an action, I'm breaking the subjectiveness of the action as another person might see it. I can already see where you're going to go with this.

It's a moral grey area. 

But the action you've dictated is pretty straightforward. You're killing a person and taking their money. Why? Because you want their money? 

That really wasn't necessary, now was it? 

Why'd you do it David? You're a murderer. Why'd you murder that person David?


Let's say I'm a ultilitarian. I believe the world would be a net happier place with you gone. I believe that money will make me happier than it made you. Thus, killing you and stealing your money is justified.

It's a moral grey idea. Actions are subjective. What right do you have to punish me for that?


Reported for telling me that the world is a better place without me. That's harassment.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 05 juin 2013 - 02:38 .


#340
Dextro Milk

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HiddenInWar wrote...

Dextro Milk is easily my favorite new member

Who doesn't love a glass of warm dextro milk? :innocent:

#341
David7204

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm simply suggesting that the next time around, the devs could step back and let the players judge what is right or wrong for themselves, removing the immediate carrot/stick dynamic of the morality meter. This, mind you, is a far cry from removing consequences for decisions altogether.

Frame these questions - Genophage, Cerberus, Quarian/Geth, Collector Base - with the exact same dialogue options we have now, only without the morality meter staring over the player's shoulder, and with dialogue on the wheel scrambled so you have to find the response you want to give each time. How differently would players behave?


I'm still seeing a contradiction here.

You're simultaneously saying that the developers can and can't 'color' their decisions.

Is the developers 'coloring' the choices of the game with elements besides the morality meter a problem, or is it not?

#342
Ravensword

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Dextro Milk wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

One wonders how this conversation went from paragon/renegade to moral ethics and murder?


And milk.  Don't forget the milk. 

The sweet milk... Mmm...


Milk is good for you.

#343
Dextro Milk

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Ravensword wrote...

Milk is good for you.

Of course! Seriously, I need to get a glass of milk right now. :wub:

#344
Ravensword

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Dextro Milk wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Milk is good for you.

Of course! Seriously, I need to get a glass of milk right now. :wub:


I knew a guy on here who really liked milk.

Modifié par Ravensword, 05 juin 2013 - 02:43 .


#345
Jarl Johnnie Walker

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

BSN Drinking Game: everyone take a drink whenever David uses the word "heroism".

If anyone lasts an hour I'll be impressed.


Well shiit. You know me, The Call of Sexy Cthulhu.

Image IPB

Modifié par Johnnie Walker, 05 juin 2013 - 02:46 .


#346
DeinonSlayer

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David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm simply suggesting that the next time around, the devs could step back and let the players judge what is right or wrong for themselves, removing the immediate carrot/stick dynamic of the morality meter. This, mind you, is a far cry from removing consequences for decisions altogether.

Frame these questions - Genophage, Cerberus, Quarian/Geth, Collector Base - with the exact same dialogue options we have now, only without the morality meter staring over the player's shoulder, and with dialogue on the wheel scrambled so you have to find the response you want to give each time. How differently would players behave?

I'm still seeing a contradiction here.

You're simultaneously saying that the developers can and can't 'color' their decisions.

Is the developers 'coloring' the choices of the game with elements besides the morality meter a problem, or is it not?

What, you think I'm suggesting they make a game that avoids any moral suggestion or any themes of any kind? Of course not. We aren't playing Tetris here.

I'm saying, put the choices in front of players without immediately stamping their actions with morality points either way. Put the choice in front of players without bias and let them face the consequences down the road for whatever they chose to do. Let them find the messages on their own. Let them hash it out here. Make them think.

An approval system like DA:O is better, because it's more diffuse - individual people realistically react negatively or positively to others based on personal codes of morality. A consistent character can be roleplayed who, at times, is in line with a certain person's morality, and at other times is not.

If Wrex shows up and tries to kill Shepard, I don't need renegade points to know I'm facing the consequences for a **** move made earlier in the game. If I feel like a heel for doing something without a morality point modifier popping up in the corner, the writing has done its job.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 juin 2013 - 03:08 .


#347
Ravensword

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Johnnie Walker wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

BSN Drinking Game: everyone take a drink whenever David uses the word "heroism".

If anyone lasts an hour I'll be impressed.


Well shiit. You know me, The Call of Sexy Cthulhu.

-challenge accepted snip-




Day-umn! Dat Nic Cage.

#348
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Oh David you're so cute.

I'm totally setting you up with Wulfie and Seival. Your combined arrogance will be wondrous to behold.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 05 juin 2013 - 03:31 .


#349
DeinonSlayer

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"...the hell is that?"

:P

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 juin 2013 - 03:28 .


#350
NeroonWilliams

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm simply suggesting that the next time around, the devs could step back and let the players judge what is right or wrong for themselves, removing the immediate carrot/stick dynamic of the morality meter. This, mind you, is a far cry from removing consequences for decisions altogether.

Frame these questions - Genophage, Cerberus, Quarian/Geth, Collector Base - with the exact same dialogue options we have now, only without the morality meter staring over the player's shoulder, and with dialogue on the wheel scrambled so you have to find the response you want to give each time. How differently would players behave?

I'm still seeing a contradiction here.

You're simultaneously saying that the developers can and can't 'color' their decisions.

Is the developers 'coloring' the choices of the game with elements besides the morality meter a problem, or is it not?

What, you think I'm suggesting they make a game that avoids any moral suggestion or any themes of any kind? Of course not. We aren't playing Tetris here.

I'm saying, put the choices in front of players without immediately stamping their actions with morality points either way. Put the choice in front of players without bias and let them face the consequences down the road for whatever they chose to do. Let them find the messages on their own. Let them hash it out here. Make them think.

An approval system like DA:O is better, because it's more diffuse - individual people realistically react negatively or positively to others based on personal codes of morality. A consistent character can be roleplayed who, at times, is in line with a certain person's morality, and at other times is not.

If Wrex shows up and tries to kill Shepard, I don't need renegade points to know I'm facing the consequences for a **** move made earlier in the game. If I feel like a heel for doing something without a morality point modifier popping up in the corner, the writing has done its job.


You don't even have to go so far as to remove the Paragon/Renegade meter from the game.  Just remove it from SIGHT.

There were all sorts of things being tracked with a numerical meter in ME3, and I'm not referring to the WA/GR numbers.

Take for example, who walks off of the Normandy on the crashland planet, and who complains about not getting to go with Shep to retake the Normandy from the Clone.  Those were determined by a meter that was hidden from the player.  Same with the VS reaction to Shepard at the climax of the coup attempt.  For that matter, there is the now well publicized meter for being able to broker peace between the Quarians and the Geth.

All of these things (and probably others that I'm either forgetting or still don't know about) are governed by a meter that is hidden from the player completely.  Why not keep that Para/Rene/Reputation meter hidden as well?  DAO seemed to have a decent handle on this.

In keeping with that, for the love of god, please DO mix up the placement of the choices on the dialog wheel.  Make us think about what those choices look like instead of mindlessly clicking top=good boy, bottom=bad boy.  It will make for a better experience.  Except, I suppose for the people who are incapable of doing so because "I must has best kewlest ending".

Modifié par NeroonWilliams, 05 juin 2013 - 03:23 .