416 réponses à ce sujet

[Only-Twin]

I don't see how not knowing the outcome of something is a chore.

[Khelish]

David7204 wrote...

What was supposed to be a game is now a chore. What was supposed to be entertainment is now a headache.

Thinking is now a chore?

[David7204]

Only-Twin wrote...

I don't see how not knowing the outcome of something is a chore.

I'm arguing on several different fronts at once.

if a choice doesn't have foreshadowing, how is it even a choice? How it is anymore more than just a dice roll? Morals don't matter. Heroism doesn't matter. Intentions don't matter. Good choices lead to bad outcomes more often than not. What does matter? Nothing. Why shouldn't I just close my eyes and pick a random option? It's as good of a tactic as any to get the best outcome.

No, foreshadowing is a good and necessary element of meaningful choices, and the game needs to follow through with such foreshadowing.

Modifié par David7204, 03 juin 2013 - 05:37 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

What's going on here is a fallacy that the player can somehow 'earn' heroism. 'Earn' good outcomes. Discard that mindset, because it's nonsense. All the player can possibly do is sit on the couch and press buttons. The player can never 'earn' heroism.

LMAO you couldn't be more wrong.


Heroism is not worth jack sh*t if it's not earned. If it's a simple matter of pressing a big blue text-box it's not heroism at all and the reward that comes with pressing that big blue text-box is most certainly not deserved or well-earned.


Heroism onlyt truly means anything if it's EARNED, if it's ACHIEVED through clever, intelligent or skilled actions by the player. There is nothing clever, intelligent or skillful about pressing a big giant blue text-box that is being presented to me on a silver platter.


When I play a Paragon Shepard in Mass Effect, I don't feel like a hero and I don't feel like I've earned any of my in-game achievements.

When I play Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher, I totally feel like a hero when I managed to defeat the Kayrant on Dark Mode difficulty or when I manage to broker an alliance between Temeria and Redania through clever negotiations by intelligently choosing the right dialogue options.

[David7204]

You sat on the couch. And you pressed buttons on a plastic controller.

That's what you did.

That's 'earning' heroism to you?

Modifié par David7204, 03 juin 2013 - 05:44 .

[Seboist]

When I played Paragon I felt like I was playing with cheat codes on. It was so damn boring.

Like it was said one of my fave Twilight Zone ep, "you see fats, being a big guy with a chick, it just don't mean anything if it's all set up in advance". The same principle applies here.

Modifié par Seboist, 03 juin 2013 - 05:44 .

[AresKeith]

In ME1, if you helped Wrex get his family armor back you didn't need paragon/renegade to.convince him on Virmire

I liked how Bioware did that

[Khelish]

David7204 wrote...

You sat on the couch. And you pressed buttons.

That's what you did.

You think that makes you a hero?

You think that it is a chore? 

[Modius Prime]

Keep in mind that most people playing Mass Effect are CASUALS. They don't need to have some complicated system with meaningful choice - they want streamlining so everything is easier; however, I don't think one should take Mass Effect lightly; it is a game that is about choices and they should just do that thing again with either the Roleplaying (traditional) option/action option. I do miss it, though, when ME had at least 3 different options, along with investigate, which gave ME immense replay ability. I think the less traditional option should have clear colors (red for bad, blue for good) in order for casuals to understand moral consequences easier; however, I don't know how BioWare could pull in the resources to script so many different sequences, just for the sake of player convenience. In my opinion, Mass Effect isn't a game that should be dumbed down - it is a game that is designed for a far more mature crowd, but sadly EA wants to widen the market to make it for everyone. Mass Effect is NOT for everyone; when you focus on the big picture too much, you tend to forget about the smaller parts that make it, like your hardcore fans, and the dialogue tends to detract. I don't really think ME should have even been catered to casuals. Common sense - even in regular shmucks - would tell you that it is the third game, which should focus on the loose ends of the previous installments. The first game is the game that should be catered to a wide audience, then it should invest in that audience in the next installments. The people that actually care a lot and spread all the hype are mostly the hardcore, loyal fans.

Modifié par Modius Prime, 03 juin 2013 - 05:46 .

[David7204]

Khelish wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You sat on the couch. And you pressed buttons.

That's what you did.

You think that makes you a hero?

You think that it is a chore? 

When did I say anything like that? No. Quite the opposite.

[ShepnTali]

I'd like to see it as a dice roll, so to speak, with certain factors giving a + or - to the roll. What those factors are, I don't necessarily know at the moment. That would be more interesting for me personally.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

You sat on the couch. And you pressed buttons.

That's what you did.

That's 'earning' heroism to you?

I sat on a chair and made intelligent decisions, which the game rewarded me for by giving me the best outcome. Yes, that indeed made me feel like a hero, at least until the moment I turn off the game and get back to my everyday life.

Mass Effect does not and can not give me the same experience as long as it has those blue auto-win buttons.


And you David? Do you feel like a hero when you press that blue auto-win button in Mass Effect?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 juin 2013 - 05:50 .

[David7204]

Of course it didn't. I'm not the hero. Shepard is. I'm just a player.

Tell me, where do you think heroism in non-interactive mediums is derived from? Television, books, film, theater, all of that? Since all the audience has to do is sit and watch or sit and read?

Modifié par David7204, 03 juin 2013 - 05:52 .

[Khelish]

David7204 wrote...

When did I say anything like that? No. Quite the opposite.

Last post on 3rd page.

What was the point of saying any of that?

And you still never answered... "Why do you need the dialogue wheel to tell you right from wrong?"

Is thinking about a choice in an "RPG" a chore to you?

[Only-Twin]

I'd rather use my intuition to make a decision than have the game tell me what is paragon or renegade.

And what's wrong with feeling a sense of accomplishment by playing something challenging? If that's the way you feel, maybe you should watch a movie instead.

[David7204]

What's wrong is arguing heroism is meaningless because it's the result of a 'button press.' That choosing to take such options is nothing but an 'easy win button.' that renders the conflict moot. That heroism needs to be 'earned' by the player or else it doesn't mean anything.

We're the players. All we can ever do is press buttons. That’s the only contribution we can possibility make to the story. Any action, any input is going to be the 'result' of a button press. Saying that heroism is invalid because it’s the 'result' of button press cannot be true because it would mean that every element of every story in every game must be invalid as well.

Modifié par David7204, 03 juin 2013 - 05:55 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Of course it didn't. I'm not the hero. Shepard is. I'm just a player.

Tell me, where do you think heroism in non-interactive mediums is derived from? Television, books, film, theater, all of that? Since all the audience has to do is sit and watch or sit and read?

That is the difference between games and movies/books/comics. Games are interactive and have the possibility to engaging the player and to make the player feel like he is (part of) the hero. Because yes, when you win a difficult battle or made the right choice in a video-game, YOU achieved that, not just the character in-game, but YOU, THE PLAYER too. This experience is unique to video-games and only video-games are capable of bringing us this experience because of their interactive nature.

But according to you, that unique capablity of games should not be explored, am I right?

[AresKeith]

David your the only one arguing heroism when heroism =/= paragon/renegade

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Oh David I just love everything about you.

Please keep presenting your opinion as fact and then insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

I need it.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 03 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David you're talking BS. Games are more than just mindlessly pushing buttons. Games require thought, intelligence and skills. Maybe you too would realize that if you tried some proper games that aren't ******-easy with blue auto-win buttons (e.g. BioWare's recent games).


Sometimes I really wonder if you ever played any other games at all aside from BioWare's games...

[Only-Twin]

I play a game for the same reason I would read a book or watch a movie - to experience something different. I don't think of it as pushing buttons, it's imagining something.

[Khelish]

"Not gonna lie I ship Wulfie, David, and Seival."

That is a cute coupl- I mean...

[David7204]

What you're playing is a prepared experience explicitly constructed and refined to be beatable with minimal frustration by a player with average or even below average intelligence.

[LandoCalrisian]

I think instead of "nice guy" response and "i'm a 12 year old douche" responses to choose between, they should just make the dialogue options more nuanced. Also, no more top choice is always nice guy and bottom choice always 12 year old douche.

Subtly difference/nuanced dialoge options mixed up in a way that you can't just autopilot one or the other to get points would be a welcome change, but if they want to keep the game relatively dumb, its probably too much to ask for.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

What you're playing is a prepared experience explicitly constructed and refined to be beatable with minimal frustration by a player with average or even below average intelligence.

And being both a game developer and a hardcore gamer myself I can tell you that you're factually wrong.


Again, I truly wonder if you ever played any other games outside of BioWare's library of (recent) games.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 juin 2013 - 06:06 .