266 réponses à ce sujet

[chemiclord]

TheProtheans wrote...

That ignores the question raised as to if SP would be any different if there was no MP.
There is two previous installments that prove you can make a Mass effect game with a SP budget and with the natural improvement of the Bioware teams skills, can you really say something happened because of a bigger budget or simply because they improved.

Either way we already have the groundwork for general layout of the game because ME3 was already made.
Now we just need to rearranage everything to make it look nicer and it would cheap enough to make it.
And we can't say for sure if Multiplayer is some big money maker as there aren't that many misguided individuals in the world to play the game and stupidly make pointless micro-transactions.
But what I would really want to know is if MP was covered in the amount it supposedly added to the overall budget.

Would it be different?  Yes.  I suspect you'd have LESS content, not MORE.

I mean, sure, Allen could completely be lying when he says adding multiplayer granted them a larger budget to do things.  But I don't think he is.  Multiplayer (and the microtransactions that tend to come with them), have almost always been a gold mine for games.  The indications we have is that ME3's multiplayer had the same effect.

COULD Bioware have made a single-player only ME3 that was satisfying?  I honestly don't think so.  In fact, I think the wall would have been hit harder.  Not to mention that the major bone of contention and the single largest point of rage and poor execution really didn't have ANYTHING to do with Multiplayer, and the fact that someone or someones completely bungled the ending to the trilogy.

[Fixers0]

tickle267 wrote...

I'm sorry, what are you you arguing about again?

The amount of fetch quest present in each game, this graph under here will clarify.

[KaiserShep]

I usually ignored as many fetch quests as I could. Too bad I couldn't just run past the random characters quickly enough to avoid having their quest pop up on the journal.

[chemiclord]

Fixers0 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...
So... once again you dodge the essence of the argument to repeat your semantic nonsense.

And once agan you fail to present any relevant, logical arguments.

Okay.  Another deep breath.

Let's try this again.

I'll even extend this olive branch.  Yes, by the terms each game uses, there are 5 fetch quests to ME1 as compared to 31 in ME3.  You are on this simple numbers fact, correct.  I make this concession in the hope that it allows us to move on to the next part:

However, when you consider that each single quest in ME1 is actually 10 or more singular segments to a greater whole, and that each such single quest in ME3 is one segment in and of itself, the amount of "fetch and grab" elements to each game actually aren't all that different.  The sheer amount of filler in each game isn't particularly more or less in ME1, ME2 (with its planet scanning), and ME3.

Each of the three games does this sort of thing because A) it is cheap, and it's an easy way to pad the length of the game without much resources devoted to the project.

So saying, "drop fetch quests and add more real content" is a difficult thing to say because it wouldn't free up all that many resources for more "real" content.

[Reiisha]

Just the endings need to be rewritten.

A powerful being gives you 3 options, 2 of which end with your own destruction.

That powerful being presents these options as the only solutions.

That powerful being claims that it's logical that in order to protect organic life from synthetic life, it has to be turned into synthetic life. Circular logic much? Not to mention that this completely ignores the fact that EDI and the Geth are now friendly, it's entire line of reasoning is based on an assumption. The catalyst assumes that synthetic life will take over organic life, and that this is inevitable. Even though it is disproven at several turns and in fact is actively helping it's own prophecy along it still won't see actual reason and clings to an eons-old assumption that turns out to be untrue, or at least unproven, and is willing to sacrifice billions of years of organic life for it.

And as anyone knows, assumptions are the mother of all ****ups. Excuse the profanity.


Honestly, before you want to fix the endings you'd have to fix a lot more. The current endings are simply not good enough - 1 ending is advocated by one of the major bad guys, another ending is advocated by the being who created the Reapers in the first place. The 'bad' ending is the ending that actually removes the Reapers and the Catalyst from the equation entirely and lets the universe sort itself out. How can this not be the best ending?

Why would you trust a being to give you control or synthesis as good endings when its own basic thought processes can be disseminated by a very young, single organic creature? Makes no sense. Destroy is the only option.

Control and synthesis are already 'magic' options. There's no real way to make them happen (though control can be reasoned). I don't see how Destroy would affect anything other than the Reapers either - How do you define synthetic life? Machines? Electronic brains? What about genetically engineerd creatures? How does the catalyst make that differentiation so it won't kill organic life with it? It would have made much more sense that the Destroy ending only kills the Reapers since they are the only lifeform which is thoroughly defined and identifiable by the Catalyst - The Geth have been through an organic development since their creation and it can hardly be argued that they're 'machines' anymore in the classic definition of synthetic life. Same with EDI. What is consciousness? What is awareness? Does it claim to have answers to that question?

The entire ending of ME3 is compromised by the catalyst. It simply makes no sense.



The ending should have been different. Bioware should not have caved in to the urge to explain EVERYTHING. The Leviathan DLC should not have retconned the lore. Hear me out:

Sovereign states that the goals of the Reapers are unknowable. While it may be arrogant, it may also be right. An alien consciousness does not have to think like we do. We may not be able to understand it's reasoning because our minds are too different. The Reapers may actually BE unknowable. Why try to explain it? Our goal is to survive!

The crucible is a MAJOR missed opportunity. Instead of it being a pre-ordained plan by the Catalyst, why not make it a triumph of cooperation amongst the races of the galaxy? A billion years in development, cycle after cycle managing to keep it hidden from destruction. Millions of races have sacrificed their lives to finally succeed at completing a device which may stop the cycle forever, culminating in this one.

The catalyst may not recognize what it represents. Resistance against the Reapers. The end of the cycle which it deemed inevitable. The Geth, and possibly hundreds, thousands or more synthetic races having worked on it aswell to stop the cycle, in cooperation with organic life (as you might find out at some point). It tries to argue it's point to whatever degree it thinks organic life can understand - It doesn't have to make sense to use since we cannot understand it. Maybe the catalyst doesn't exist in this version at all, which would be the better idea.

You activate the crucible and all the Reapers simply vanish. Maybe it was a device which used the Citadel to amplify a wave that pushed the very, VERY specific makeup, energy and consistency of the Reapers into another dimension, banishing them from this universe forever.

Wouldn't this make a lot more sense? Wouldn't this make the achievement of whatever you accomplished in the previous games much more palpable?


So, in short: Just remove the final sequence in the Citadel from the game. Place the final confrontation with TIM somewhere else.

Don't explain the Reapers. The leviathans were simply the first victim - Maybe their ancestors made the first one, maybe it was something cross dimensional to begin with. Even they don't know what the Reapers actually want.

The crucible is the culmination of thousands of cycles, an effort to stop the Reapers once and for all. No one was able to finish it before, either the plans were discovered too late, the Reapers stopped it's construction or whatever - But now it's finally finished and the cycle will be ended on the Galaxy's own terms, not the Reapers'.

The dark matter plot could be something that the races have to face - Maybe the Reapers were involved in some way. Maybe they did have VAGUELY benevolent intentions, something along the lines of recruiting the minds of the galaxy to find a solution, though we cannot be sure. It would serve as an excellent segue into ME4.

ME4 could still carry some decisions from ME1-3. Who is your Shepard (you don't actually have to see her, like Shepard's mother, or keep it vague), which races survived in which condition (Krogan, Quarians, Geth, also background stuff really). ME4 could properly start up the dark matter plot without trying to tie it in with the Reapers or any other main enemy, don't know.



/rant over. Maybe someone can make sense of what i said ;p

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wait... so you always knew this was a meaningless number?

No, I do more or less knew you have a habbit at generating meaningless arguments, When the ground is getting too hot under your feet.

You still haven't said why the number you keep talking about is worth talking about. Do you actually have a reason, or was chemiclord right about you the whole time?

[ToaOrka]

If I could re-write the game, it would literally be ten-
hours'-worth of graphic sex between Garrus, Wrex,
Grunt, and Dudeshep.

[AlanC9]

TheProtheans wrote...
That ignores the question raised as to if SP would be any different if there was no MP.
There is two previous installments that prove you can make a Mass effect game with a SP budget and with the natural improvement of the Bioware teams skills, can you really say something happened because of a bigger budget or simply because they improved.

Either way we already have the groundwork for general layout of the game because ME3 was already made.
Now we just need to rearranage everything to make it look nicer and it would cheap enough to make it.
And we can't say for sure if Multiplayer is some big money maker as there aren't that many misguided individuals in the world to play the game and stupidly make pointless micro-transactions.
But what I would really want to know is if MP was covered in the amount it supposedly added to the overall budget.

What's the argument here?

You want MP gone because if it was gone.... what would happen? It can't be because because that would leave more money for SP, since you say that we can't tell if the budget matters in the first place. 

Whether MP really was profitable isn't relevant, since EA being wrong about that would hurt them but wouldn't change any ME3 production decisions.

[SweetDaddySiki]

 
The biggest change I would have made was in the motivations of the reapers. In my rewrite:

The problem the reapers were trying to solve was the problem preserving sentience in the face of increasing entropy

Advanced races spread throughout the galaxy consume ever largeramounts of resources. This accelerates entropy, destroys biospheresand reduces the possibility of new sentient races evolving.

The acceleration of entropy causes an increase in dark energy buildup.These two factors will create a feedback loop that threatens to render the galaxy uninhabitable far more quickly than naturalentropic forces would.

To solve this, the first apex species `reaperfied themselves`, converting thier minds and achievements into efficient digital forms. As virtual entities they consumed far fewer resources and no longerneeded to live in biospheres. they created the precursors of the mass relay network to distribute dark energy evenly around the galaxy and then went into low powered hibernation. This reduced the acceleration of entropy and the buildup of dark energy.

Upon awakening, they discovered new species spreading rapidlythroughout the galaxy, creating a new buildup of entropic forces and dark energy. The Reapers approached these young species, explaining the problem and offering to help them ascend into virtual form. These species refused. The Reaper computed that the activities of these species would quickly render the galaxy uninhabitable. To save these species and galaxy, the reapers decided to harvest them and digitise them by force. Thus began the First Harvest.

The First Harvest was long and difficult. Upon its completion, the Reapers realised that sentient life would rise again, spread again and the cycle would be repeated. To make the next harvest easier and more predictable,
they created the Citadel and altered the relays into a transportation network. They then went back into low powered hibernation, awakening only when the mass relays registered a large increase in the rate of dark energy growth, signifying that new civilisations have grown.

The goal of the reapers is harvest and preserve advanced civilisations in virtual form, slowing down the growth of entropy and ensuring the continuing diversity of life. They intend to keep doing this until the galaxy becomes uninhabitable, then escape with all the preserved civilisations into a different galaxy or alternate reality, ensuring thier survival.

One of the choices presented upon completing the game would be for shepard to see that the cycles were needed and to allow the harvest to continue.

Modifié par SweetDaddySiki, 08 juin 2013 - 04:29 .

[BronzTrooper]

No more Starbrat. Option to kill TIM well before Priority: Earth. More Harby.

[JonathonPR]

Push back the arrival of the reapers to the end of the third act. Have the super weapon/devices function change based on the major factions you ally with. In stead of the reapers being a direct threat have them use agent races like the Collectors that they wanted to save for the invasion because they are not as well suited for direct warfare and better at removing the last traces of civilizations. The Agents of the Reapers are acting to destabilize the races through assassination and promoting internal conflict. puppet corporations and research groups are used to introduce new technology that increases the influence of the reapers within the civilizations and implement military assets that are ultimately loyal to the Reapers. Have those minions also be in the process of building a citadel like structure that they have hidden but the process of creating it causes the "dark energy" effect seen at Haestrom to occur at increasing frequency the closer it comes to activation. The end of the game occurs at the gate structure where the devices/super weapons meant to fight the Reapers are used. The Reapers try to establish a beachhead. Something the devices could do is make large Ezo cores unstable the more they are used. The end of the battle is abrupt with the Reaper forces just shutting down and an no more Reapers coming through. When questioned The top Reaper agent simply states that to reach an objective does not always require one side not to reach theirs. Sometimes methods may conflict but the goals do not. The last line is delivered in Sovereign's voice. No anger. No contempt. Just a statement from a being with a different paradigm of thought. Then an epilogue with the characters and factions.


And during the credits the player acan controle a Reaper in a Galaga style game against the forces of the cycles. Each level take the a cycle back in time.

Modifié par JonathonPR, 08 juin 2013 - 03:42 .

[fainmaca]

chemiclord wrote...

I like the actual story concept here, it actually connects ME2 to the primary storyline this way.

The only thing I would suggest is that the Suicide Mission is at the heart of the logistic problems of ME3.  A lot of the walls Bioware hit had to do with the number of permutations the "anyone can die" mechanic the Suicide Mission created, especially since two of them were potential members of your ME3 squad, and two others potentially played significant story roles in ME3 (Mordin and Legion).  

Every scene had to be written assuming the possibility one of those characters weren't present, and dialogue had to be recorded the same way multiple times for multiple characters, decimating the word budget and logistics of the game itself.

I personally would have saved that mechanic for ME3, and had a much more structured Suicide Mission of ME2.

Yeah, Bioware really set themselves up with a challenge doing that at the halfway point. I guess i just had faith that they'd actually thought it out properly and were prepared to handle the permutations in a well-structured and fair way.

I personally would leave the SM well alone where it is because I feel its a rare moment in gaming where everything comes together almost perfectly. On a first playthrough (future ones are always going to be tarnished by meta knowledge), the narrative theme of choices and consequences is present in spadefuls, the action is tense, the dialogue is brilliant, and the only real sticking point is the lame boss fight, and that's more because of its design rather than the fact that there's a boss fight there. like I said, perhaps change Termi-Reaper for the Collector General, but that'd be the biggest change. Its the kind of mission that I think would be very difficult to recapture the atmosphere of if you reworked it too much. I still get an immense feeling of satisfaction off completing it even now, and I still occasionally screw up and take too many heavy hitters away from Holding the Line and get people killed.

Frankly, had I been put in charge of ME3 after the success of ME2, I would have honestly pushed to split the final game into two parts. there's too much game to be made and story to be told to justify a lowly $60/£40 pricetag without bodging it somewhere. JK Rowling did it. Christopher Paolini of Eragon fame did it. Peter jackson is currently doing it (although i admit those movies are shaping up to be bloated beyond what they should be). I would prefer (and I doubt many of the fanbase would disagree) to have four installments that tell the story properly and fairly than three that cram it in as haphazardly as last year's product. Moments like Mordin's (TBH the only bit I thought was nearly perfect in the game, though I've already explained my admittedly minor complaints with it before) should have been the standard for every important plotline, both in scope and emotional impact, rather than a shining instant lost in the confusing noise of the rest of the package.

I mean, would Bioware have come under so much criticism if they'd come out after ME2's launch (maybe as late as LotSB, though perhaps not) and said 'We've got too much game to release all at once here, we've gotta make two games if the saga is to be done justice.'?

[Only-Twin]

Wow, I left for a few days and this thread is still going.

Keep it civil, people

[chemiclord]

fainmaca wrote...
I mean, would Bioware have come under so much criticism if they'd come out after ME2's launch (maybe as late as LotSB, though perhaps not) and said 'We've got too much game to release all at once here, we've gotta make two games if the saga is to be done justice.'?

Actually.  Yes.  They would have.

Trying to sell what amounts to two 10-15 hour games for $60 each?  Holy hell would there have been outrage.

[AlanC9]

I don't see what splitting up the game into two parts would improve. It makes the ME2 companion problems worse, not better.

[chemiclord]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see what splitting up the game into two parts would improve. It makes the ME2 companion problems worse, not better.

I'm assuming the theory is that splitting the game into two parts would allow Bioware to expand on those ME2 squadmates, rather than shove them off stage or kinda write them out entirely.

[AlanC9]

OK... so that's how they end up being two 15 hour games.

I suppose you could keep the games at (potentially) 30 hours if the ME2 companion content was purely optional plot-wise; if Miranda's alive you get three hours of Miranda-related content, if she's dead you get nothing. This would mean bringing back the BG2/ME2 plot structure, where most of the game is sidequests that have nothing to do with the main plot. Some folks might consider that OK, I guess.

But how much would, for example, a Miranda fan like ME3 if her content was mostly in ME4?