700 réponses à ce sujet

[cmessaz]

WildOrchid wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Many males don't like to play as a female and if they see a game they have never played before have a female on it, a lot of them may not pick it up.

So does the women who don't like to play males.
That's why in a game where you have gender options, the cover should have male/female protag.

This, I think both genders of the protag should be equally represented.

Just....so what about us woman that only play as woman who pick up a game even though John Shepard/Garret Hawke is on the cover? I actually read about a game before I buy it I don't pick it up because it has a perty picture on the front. If you do...ok then your loss?

I don't get how having a female on the cover would like ruin the gaming experience for men.

[Freckles04]

Forgive me, but I didn't read all of the posts in this thread after the first half-dozen or so "fem!protag on the cover won't sell" comments.

Let me instead just say I support the idea of having a fem!protag on the cover, either sharing the cover with the male!protag or as a flip option (though I'd prefer the former). 

And rather than list out all my arguments why this is a good idea, I'm going to point to this article about David Gaider's talk at GDC, where he says "How about we just decide not to repel women?"

The problem, says Gaider, comes from falsely held industry standards and the phenomenon of privilege. Regarding the former, Gaider made no concessions for “conventional industry wisdom.” It’s “bull****,” he said, after ridiculing the idea that games with female protagonists aren’t marketable.

“Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game which has a male protagonist and sells well, sells well because it has a male protagonist?” asked Gaider. “What about the ones with male protagonists that don’t sell well? Are those for other reasons? What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about female protagonists? Would we need a title to sell 10 million copies? Is that the bar?”

I'll also just point out that Tomb Raider, which features Lara Croft on the cover, sold 3.4 million copies in its first month. A bit lower than what Square Enix estimated, but their projections were off on all their titles, and it's still nothing to sneeze at.

If the game is good enough—story, gameplay, etc.—and that's communicated through various media, such as reviews in magazines, then it doesn't matter who's on the cover. And if it doesn't matter, be inclusive. 

Oh, and a final comment.

If hardcore male gamers are put off by a cover that doesn't feature a white dudebro, then they are acting just like a lot of previous posters have stated—being too sensitive to things that don't matter. Funny how those guys aren't being crticized for that, though, only the women who are requesting changes.

Modifié par Freckles04, 03 juin 2013 - 04:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Kingroxas wrote...
But you said that just a glimpse of a cover would tell you if they are "likely to contain elements that interest me" without looking at the Picture/art.

That is not what I said at all. Go back and read my post again. Of course I look at the art. What do you think "glimpsing" is?

I said the quality of the art is irrelevent, because quality is a subjective and personal judgement.

And i continue to ask, how?

I judge a cover based on the content of the art. Are there people on the cover? What do they look like? What are they doing? What are their surroundings?

Also, what are you doing at a DVD stall in Thailand buying bootlegs. Do you regularly visit these?...(to come up with this argument)

I was being facetious because your question was stupid. 

[katiebour]

LarryDavid wrote...

53/47= 1.1277 and hence there are 12.77 % more male gamers than female gamers. My math was off because I wrote 12% and not 13%, which was my way of being nice ;o. 

I don't care what is on the box of a game, but because it apparently means alot to you I'll change my default to "I am all for a kicking ass female in the trailer and on the box" if it makes you happy. Of course, unless it negatively influences the sales.

As a math aside, if you have 100 people in a room, 47 of whom are women and 53 of whom are men, then you have six more men than women, yes?  And 6/100 is 6% of the total, so men would make up 6% more of the total gaming population than women?  Not that quibbling numbers is the point of the thread, but you've got my curiosity up now as far as logic and calculating percentages goes. XD

And it does mean a lot to me.  Thank you for agreeing to change your default.  As for your caveat, take it a step deeper and ask "why would having a kickass female in the trailer and on the box negatively influence sales?"

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 04:39 .

[Cirram55]

I don't understand why we can't have both on the front. Like Dudebrov and Dudettesistah holding hands (to show the buyer that they are related somehow, or does holding hands alienate customers too?) and walking towards the player with the overused menacing glance that looks so kewl.

Everybody's happy, and the cover looks different than the usual!

[acidqueen5426]

BackdoorPaco wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

As a dudebro, I am offended.

I hope they put a male protagonist on the cover just to spite you, wench.

Ha. I like you.

Good for you--I reported him.

[psychopath-jack]

It's be wonderful if say Bioware could pull off having both genders on the cover art like they did with Jade Empire, despite the possible argument Jade Empire was a flop. But otherwise yes, the duel cover ME3 had was fabulous, come now. As for the cover art being without the protagonist seems feasible but isn't usually Bioware's style. Not to mention it would feel more like a scapegoat than anything. We need to see our female heros promoted I say!

[Dabrikishaw]

scyphozoa wrote...

Poor Ken Levine

Seriously though, as long as Bioware has male and female protags, there will be people asking for boxart with both. I agree that having neither on the box is a better and more cost effective solution than having both. I don't have a problem with both, but I don't think every future Bioware game should have to do this. So removing the protagonist from the cover is probably a better design choice.

[LadyMalstroem]

katiebour wrote...

LarryDavid wrote...

53/47= 1.1277 and hence there are 12.77 % more male gamers than female gamers. My math was off because I wrote 12% and not 13%, which was my way of being nice ;o. 

I don't care what is on the box of a game, but because it apparently means alot to you I'll change my default to "I am all for a kicking ass female in the trailer and on the box" if it makes you happy. Of course, unless it negatively influences the sales.

As a math aside, if you have 100 people in a room, 47 of whom are women and 53 of whom are men, then you have six more men than women, yes?  And 6/100 is 6% of the total, so men would make up 6% more of the total gaming population than women?  Not that quibbling numbers is the point of the thread, but you've got my curiosity up now as far as logic and calculating percentages goes. XD

And it does mean a lot to me.  Thank you for agreeing to change your default.  As for your caveat, take it a step deeper and ask "why would having a kickass female in the trailer and on the box negatively influence sales?"

Well, technically, there's a difference between percentage and percentage points. 53 is 12% more than 47, but the difference between 53% and 47% is 6 percentage points (pp) - either way, the difference is very small, but you're both talking about the same amount, just with different words. Just thought I'd add that

[Battlebloodmage]

WildOrchid wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Many males don't like to play as a female and if they see a game they have never played before have a female on it, a lot of them may not pick it up.

So does the women who don't like to play males.
That's why in a game where you have gender options, the cover should have male/female protag.

I think the problem is that marketing perceive females as a minority, and they want to cater to the broadest audience possible, so they would rather go after the males who don't want to play as females rather than females who don't want to play as males. The recent ratio released by Bioware for ME3 players indicated that only about 18% people play as female Shepard. It's understandable for marketing to go after the male players if they see them as the majority consumers. Also, this is a broad generalization from my part, but I feel like there are more males who have an aversion to playing as females than the other way around. It could have something to do with the norms. Some see playing females as gay. I saw 2 kids playing Marvel vs Capcom, and this kid used a team of all females, and the other kid annoyed at him and told him to stop using female characters. A lot of my characters are female, so I'm not trying to discredit female protagonist. I'm just saying that it wouldn't sell because of the mindset of a lot of consumers nowsaday. Also, those who like to see females on the cover often want them to be in sexy poses, not commanding pose. 

[Gileadan]

I'm sure it would look awesome if you put both a male and female protagonist on the box cover, fighting side by side or back to back and both of them badass as all hell.

Of course, sooner or later someone would complain that the box art made them expect a co-op game...

[WildOrchid]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
I think the problem is that marketing perceive females as a minority, and they want to cater to the broadest audience possible, so they would rather go after the males who don't want to play as females rather than females who don't want to play as males. The recent ratio released by Bioware for ME3 players indicated that only about 18% people play as female Shepard. It's understandable for marketing to go after the male players if they see them as the majority consumers. Also, this is a broad generalization from my part, but I feel like there are more males who have an aversion to playing as females than the other way around. It could have something to do with the norms. Some see playing females as gay. I saw 2 kids playing Marvel vs Capcom, and this kid used a team of all females, and the other kid annoyed at him and told him to stop using female characters. A lot of my characters are female, so I'm not trying to discredit female protagonist. I'm just saying that it wouldn't sell because of the mindset of a lot of consumers nowsaday. Also, those who like to see females on the cover often want them to be in sexy poses, not commanding pose. 

Actually if you go to few pages ago, people have explained why a majority of people played dudeshep.
And I personally don't believe the % bioware released.

[Ramen Cerberus]

It is going to happen if you all stop downing it. And yes, it will sale.
To all the people against it: don't be afraid to see a woman on a cover. Just because she's female doesn't make her less important than a male on the cover art. Or less enpowering, that just a form of sexism and brainwashed gender stereotype you're going through. Stop that.

Those who want no gender are just avoiding the obvious issue, don't be a coward.

I think its time to place a female on the DA3 cover, times are changing, it WILL sale (and if you're going to be a big baby and cry about no male on the cover then go back to your crib this is the 21st centenary, more women are playing games).

No only will it make a huge statement on the changing times, it will be a gateway to more similar covers.

Don't be narrowminded people. Stop that.

[Fast Jimmy]

WildOrchid wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Many males don't like to play as a female and if they see a game they have never played before have a female on it, a lot of them may not pick it up.

So does the women who don't like to play males.
That's why in a game where you have gender options, the cover should have male/female protag.

NO. That's why such a game should have NO ONE ON THE COVER AT ALL. 

If one of your biggest features, one of your BIGGEST SELLING POINTS, is creating a character that you can make look how you want, say what you want, fight how you want and do what you want, why on God's blue Earth would you create a character that would appear in all of your marketing materials, trumping one of your game's main features?

DA:O had a stylized cover with no protagonist on the cover. Let's go back to that. 

[Welsh Inferno]

I'd rather the game not have the protagonist of the cover at all. Any game where you get to choose your gender & customize your appearance shouldn't imo.

+1 Jimmy.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 03 juin 2013 - 05:01 .

[doublecake]

Ramen Cerberus wrote...

It is going to happen if you all stop downing it. And yes, it will sale.
To all the people against it: don't be afraid to see a woman on a cover. Just because she's female doesn't make her less important than a male on the cover art. Or less enpowering, that just a form of sexism and brainwashed gender stereotype you're going through. Stop that.

Those who want no gender are just avoiding the obvious issue, don't be a coward.

I think its time to place a female on the DA3 cover, times are changing, it WILL sale (and if you're going to be a big baby and cry about no male on the cover then go back to your crib this is the 21st centenary, more women are playing games).

No only will it make a huge statement on the changing times, it will be a gateway to more similar covers.

Don't be narrowminded people. Stop that.

This. I half wonder if some (read: some, I think a lot of the time it's a valid viewpoint) of the people advocating no gender on the box art are only saying that when the idea of a woman on the box art is presented.

[WildOrchid]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

NO. That's why such a game should have NO ONE ON THE COVER AT ALL. 

If one of your biggest features, one of your BIGGEST SELLING POINTS, is creating a character that you can make look how you want, say what you want, fight how you want and do what you want, why on God's blue Earth would you create a character that would appear in all of your marketing materials, trumping one of your game's main features?

DA:O had a stylized cover with no protagonist on the cover. Let's go back to that. 

I totally agree with you (I would much prefer a neutral cover) but if they need to put the protagonist in the cover, then it should be fair and right to put the female/male protag.

[brushyourteeth]

Freckles04 wrote...

Forgive me, but I didn't read all of the posts in this thread after the first half-dozen or so "fem!protag on the cover won't sell" comments.

Let me instead just say I support the idea of having a fem!protag on the cover, either sharing the cover with the male!protag or as a flip option (though I'd prefer the former). 

And rather than list out all my arguments why this is a good idea, I'm going to point to this article about David Gaider's talk at GDC, where he says "How about we just decide not to repel women?"

The problem, says Gaider, comes from falsely held industry standards and the phenomenon of privilege. Regarding the former, Gaider made no concessions for “conventional industry wisdom.” It’s “bull****,” he said, after ridiculing the idea that games with female protagonists aren’t marketable.

“Are we supposed to accept the opposite, that a game which has a male protagonist and sells well, sells well because it has a male protagonist?” asked Gaider. “What about the ones with male protagonists that don’t sell well? Are those for other reasons? What would be the bar at which the industry would change its mind about female protagonists? Would we need a title to sell 10 million copies? Is that the bar?”

I'll also just point out that Tomb Raider, which features Lara Croft on the cover, sold 3.4 million copies in its first month. A bit lower than what Square Enix estimated, but their projections were off on all their titles, and it's still nothing to sneeze at.

If the game is good enough—story, gameplay, etc.—and that's communicated through various media, such as reviews in magazines, then it doesn't matter who's on the cover. And if it doesn't matter, be inclusive. 

Oh, and a final comment.

If hardcore male gamers are put off by a cover that doesn't feature a white dudebro, then they are acting just like a lot of previous posters have stated—being too sensitive to things that don't matter. Funny how those guys aren't being crticized for that, though, only the women who are requesting changes.

Bravo. Seriously.

[KingRoxas]

Plaintiff wrote...

1= The Sin 
2=Plaintiff
3=Kingroxas

1:Don't judge a game by its box art cover. (Correct)  

2: Most proverbs are nonsense, and this one is no exception. (Wrong imo) 

2: Covers are deliberately designed to convey the information that will attract the desired audience. (Correct)  

2: Looking at a cover tells you plenty about what's inside. (Depends if the cover is not misleading/****ty)  

3: So a game can't have a ****ty cover and still be a good game?  

(****ty cover = ****ty game?)

2:Artistic quality is not what I was talking about.(What?)   

(Wtf does that even mean, the artistic quality of the cover = The game cover/art/picture, it should "attract the desired audience" as you said.)  

2: It's a purely subjective issue. (Correct) (you agreed with me) 

3:And how does it do that without you looking at the cover?
It seems you mean that Artistic quality of the cover and the cover are different things  

2: if there is no cover im likely at some bootleg store.   

(I didn't ask if there was no cover. What i should have asked is the difference of Artistic quality of the cover vs The actual cover, you speak like they are separate things.) 

I then continue to ask wtf you mean with "Artistic quality of the cover" and then joked about wtf you were doing in Thailand buying bootlegs.

Plaintiff wrote...

I was being facetious because your question was stupid. 

I was not serious about the Thailand joke...,
and maybe you think so because you have no idea what is going on.

Edit: Im not trying to troll or upset anyone lol

Plaintiff wrote...

I judge a cover based on the content of the art. 

So the quality of the content is not part of the content you are judging? 

Modifié par Kingroxas, 03 juin 2013 - 06:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ramen Cerberus wrote...

Those who want no gender are just avoiding the obvious issue, don't be a coward.

No, those who are pushing a political agenda are avoiding the obvious issue. That goes for BOTH sides of the fence. 

The issue is player control and agency. Bioware would be much better served by focusing their marketing on the fact that you can choose who your character is and how you can shape them, both appearance and personality wise, much more than they would be putting a dude-bro/bra on the front, back, side or interior of the cover. 

[WildOrchid]

I wonder if the devs, or one of them read this thread at all.

[Zazzerka]

WildOrchid wrote...

I totally agree with you (I would much prefer a neutral cover) but if they need to put the protagonist in the cover, then it should be fair and right to put the female/male protag.

FemShep and BlokeShep holding hands and skipping through a field of dead Reapers.

I'm down with that.

[Catroi]

or just dont put the protagonist on the cover?

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DA:O had a stylized cover with no protagonist on the cover. Let's go back to that.

I agree about the cover. I thought that the DAO and DAA covers set a tone for the series and was sorry to see the male Hawke on DA2.

However, DAO may have had a stylized cover, but their CGI trailers and TV spots had a default, male human warrior Warden. Warden's Calling / Sacred Ashes

I vividly remember seeing numerous TV spots (I think most of these were edited down versions of Sacred Ashes) featuring a male Warden, and to be honest I didn't care because the game looked so awesome I wanted to get it anyway. Actually, now that I think on it further, I'm not sure with those TV spots if the Warden was really presented as the main character, since Leliana and Morrigan feature prominently in the action scenes.

[Fast Jimmy]

WildOrchid wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

NO. That's why such a game should have NO ONE ON THE COVER AT ALL. 

If one of your biggest features, one of your BIGGEST SELLING POINTS, is creating a character that you can make look how you want, say what you want, fight how you want and do what you want, why on God's blue Earth would you create a character that would appear in all of your marketing materials, trumping one of your game's main features?

DA:O had a stylized cover with no protagonist on the cover. Let's go back to that. 

I totally agree with you (I would much prefer a neutral cover) but if they need [/b]to put the protagonist in the cover, then it should be fair and right to put the female/male protag.

Why would they NEED to put a protagonist on the cover? If that NEED is a marketing exec saying so, then I'd say they need to make a stand and say no.

After all, who here really loved DA2 because they thought Hawke just looked SO cool? How many, instead, loved that they could control the choices their character made, how they progressed and how they viewed the world?

Bioware needs to market the main reason people love their games - player choice and story-telling. None of that is brought front and center with a dude-bro/bra on the cover. If anything, it subverts these key gameplay elements. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 juin 2013 - 05:30 .