700 réponses à ce sujet

[Lavaeolus]

Freckles04 wrote...

I'll also just point out that Tomb Raider, which features Lara Croft on the cover, sold 3.4 million copies in its first month. A bit lower than what Square Enix estimated, but their projections were off on all their titles, and it's still nothing to sneeze at.

The thing with Tomb Raider is, it's a well-known icon, as is Lara Croft, so it's a bit unfair to bring it into this context. Dragon Age, alas, is not really near its level.

Though I'd still prefer a female on the cover over another male, if only for variety. My prefered option, however, is to simply have a really fancy-looking cover, all artistique and ****, with no protagonist directly shown. You're supposed to be making your own character and all that, so while having a hero and all that is nice, it's just not realistic in this situation.

Mind you, I'd also want, rather than simply having a default male/female player, having various customisable different presets with all the work that went in default Hawke/Shepard's face, as well as at least one plain bald one that's basically "do it yourself".

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 03 juin 2013 - 05:32 .

[brushyourteeth]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Why would they NEED to put a protagonist on the cover? If that NEED is a marketing exec saying so, then I'd say they need to make a stand and say no.

After all, who here really loved DA2 because they thought Hawke just looked SO cool? How many, instead, loved that they could control the choices their character made, how they progressed and how they viewed the world?

Bioware needs to market the main reason people love their games - player choice and story-telling. None of that is brought front and center with a dude-bro/bra on the cover. If anything, it subverts these key gameplay elements. 

I agree with everything you're saying, Jimmy, but I think that this point it's become pretty clear to everyone that the DA franchise is moving away from choice and customization and into set protagonist/dudebro/dudebra. DAII's cover should have been our first warning.

And like you said, in the event that there is a featured protagonist on the cover, it makes little sense to create two protagonists and only use one for marketing. The only logical explanation is sexism-fueled fan-pandering. DA fans should be offended that EA assumes they're sexist.

[Battlebloodmage]

If they must show characters on the box. I would prefer for them to have a bunch of companions on the box with the protagonist being black out indicated that it's customization.

The box option would still be to not show any protagonist but the main focus of the content, either the war on the mage and templar or a dragon like Origins.

[katiebour]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ramen Cerberus wrote...

Those who want no gender are just avoiding the obvious issue, don't be a coward.

No, those who are pushing a political agenda are avoiding the obvious issue. That goes for BOTH sides of the fence. 

The issue is player control and agency. Bioware would be much better served by focusing their marketing on the fact that you can choose who your character is and how you can shape them, both appearance and personality wise, much more than they would be putting a dude-bro/bra on the front, back, side or interior of the cover. 

I can see your point, Jimmy.  Bioware doesn't have to stand on a soapbox and promote social justice with every screamed breath- their main goal is to make money.  That being said, they have a history of being inclusive, intelligent, awesome people who try really hard to do the right thing, and if anyone was going to tackle equality of gender representation in video game media, I'd expect it to be them.

They set the bar pretty high.

But I can see where a stylized cover with no protag would emphasize that there isn't a "default," especially when you can customize your character as much as we're allowed to do with ours.

If they're going to put either a man!protag or a fem!protag, I'd rather they put both, and seeing how the trend has been towards always having an iconic protag in ME and DA (especially DA2), I'd like to see fem!protag on an equal footing.  Being able to flip the art is nice, except when the vendors leave all the games flipped to man!protag, and all of the web art, merch, etc, is slanted towards man!protag.

And to revisit my ME1 experience, I didn't know from any of the art or the in-game CC that I could play as a woman.  They've done better with making it obvious in the CC, especially with DA, but it'd be nice to have a stylized cover with a blurb on the back to the effect of "Customize your hero!  Choose from a male or female Inquisitor, and select their background, looks, and personality to fit your adventure!"  Making it obvious that there is a choice matters to the gamer who's never played the franchise, sees the box in-store, and turns it around in her hands to read the back.

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 05:35 .

[MissOuJ]

I actually would prefer that the protag of DA:I wasn't on the cover because I prefer to customise my own characters in RPG's, and having a random fe/male character in the cover when my Hawke / Warden / Shepard looks nothing like them is just weird.

But female followers / female NPC's who are important to the plot? Yes please!

Seriously though, we need more female characters featured on the box art / ads / posters (and not the T&A kind of featuring, either), so I (mostly) agree!

Modifié par MissOuJ, 03 juin 2013 - 05:38 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Mass effect 3 has both male and female shepards. It works on a reversable art cover inside the sleeve.



Not to mention the collectors edition has both of them on the same cover.




And than there's the fact that bioware made female trailers for mass effect 3 as well, taking more expense than was neccisary to do so.

So why are you listing it on your little rant?

[Nole]

katiebour wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ramen Cerberus wrote...

Those who want no gender are just avoiding the obvious issue, don't be a coward.

No, those who are pushing a political agenda are avoiding the obvious issue. That goes for BOTH sides of the fence. 

The issue is player control and agency. Bioware would be much better served by focusing their marketing on the fact that you can choose who your character is and how you can shape them, both appearance and personality wise, much more than they would be putting a dude-bro/bra on the front, back, side or interior of the cover. 

I can see your point, Jimmy.  Bioware doesn't have to stand on a soapbox and promote social justice with every screamed breath- their main goal is to make money.  That being said, they have a history of being inclusive, intelligent, awesome people who try really hard to do the right thing, and if anyone was going to tackle equality of gender representation in video game media, I'd expect it to be them.

They set the bar pretty high.

But I can see where a stylized cover with no protag would emphasize that there isn't a "default," especially when you can customize your character as much as we're allowed to do with ours.

If they're going to put either a man!protag or a fem!protag, I'd rather they put both, and seeing how the trend has been towards always having an iconic protag in ME and DA (especially DA2), I'd like to see fem!protag on an equal footing.  Being able to flip the art is nice, except when the vendors leave all the games flipped to man!protag, and all of the web art, merch, etc, is slanted towards man!protag.

And to revisit my ME1 experience, I didn't know from any of the art or the in-game CC that I could play as a woman.  They've done better with making it obvious in the CC, especially with DA, but it'd be nice to have a stylized cover with a blurb on the back to the effect of "Customize your hero!  Choose from a male or female Inquisitor, and select their background, looks, and personality to fit your adventure!"  Making it obvious that there is a choice matters to the gamer who's never played the franchise, sees the box in-store, and turns it around in her hands to read the back.

Uh...In ME1, if you read the 3rd page of the manual you can see that you can play as a woman.

[Fiery Phoenix]

As much as I would like to see this happen, I'm realistic enough to know it won't. At best, we will get the ME3 treatment with a "one side male, one side female" thing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

As much as I would like to see this happen, I'm realistic enough to know it won't. At best, we will get the ME3 treatment with a "one side male, one side female" thing.

And what's wrong with that? I find games that don't showcase the characters at all on their gamecovers to have borning, bland, generic designs.

There's something in actually seeing a player character on the cover that is just a little more attnetion grabbing to me.

This is subjective of course, so if you don't feel the same way, that's fine.

[NoForgiveness]

I think if they have to put the protagonist on the cover they should do a reversible like me3, and the female should be the one it starts on.

[Truffle]

I hated DAO's cover but loved DA2's. My gaming friends make impulse purchases all the time, so unless the cover is pretty they'll spend their money on something else.

The point is to generate sales, not cater to a vocal minority. Having macho men on covers gets old, yeah, but they're there for a reason.

[katiebour]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Uh...In ME1, if you read the 3rd page of the manual you can see that you can play as a woman.

READ THE MANUAL?!   THAT'S WHAT THE TUTORIAL STAGE IS FOR!



I don't think I did ever read the manual.  How funny.

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 05:43 .

[Knight of Dane]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mass effect 3 has both male and female shepards. It works on a reversable art cover inside the sleeve.



Not to mention the collectors edition has both of them on the same cover.




And than there's the fact that bioware made female trailers for mass effect 3 as well, taking more expense than was neccisary to do so.

So why are you listing it on your little rant?

A step in the right direction, no doubt. But a small one - a right one.

Note that you had to pay extra for it, this didn't come with the normal copy. And you had to flip it, there was no displaying the woman in the stores.

It would be the ideal solution if it were just done for regular copies. It could be fun if they had flipped the cover in 50% of the copies on display actually.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

As much as I would like to see this happen, I'm realistic enough to know it won't. At best, we will get the ME3 treatment with a "one side male, one side female" thing.

And what's wrong with that? I find games that don't showcase the characters at all on their gamecovers to have borning, bland, generic designs.

There's something in actually seeing a player character on the cover that is just a little more attnetion grabbing to me.

This is subjective of course, so if you don't feel the same way, that's fine.

Nothing wrong with it at all. Sorry if it seemed like I was implying as much. Just saying it's what we will get if at all.

[Nole]

katiebour wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

Uh...In ME1, if you read the 3rd page of the manual you can see that you can play as a woman.

READ THE MANUAL?!   THAT'S WHAT THE TUTORIAL STAGE IS FOR!



I don't think I did ever read the manual.  How funny.

That's not Bioware's fault .
Also, in ME2-3, if you put New Game, the first it ask is if you will play as a Male or Woman.

Modifié par WittingEight65, 03 juin 2013 - 05:49 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

As much as I would like to see this happen, I'm realistic enough to know it won't. At best, we will get the ME3 treatment with a "one side male, one side female" thing.

At best? What's wrong with equal treatment on this? 

[Exile Isan]

Honestly, I don't know why Bioware started putting a default male protagonist on the cover. Prior to Mass Effect they never did with one small exception: Jade Empire. And I'm not even sure I would count that since Wu the Lotus Blossom, who is one of the three female protagonist options is much more prominent than Furious Ming (who is one of three male protagonist options).

Here's the cover:


And here's other Bioware titles cover art:

Baldur's Gate?


Nope, nothing on the cover but a skull.

Neverwinter Nights?


Nope. Just the Neverwinter Eye. Which is a symbol (IIRC) of the Neverwinter Nine, and also on the hilt of Aribeth's sword.

Knight of the Old Republic?


Nope. Nothing there either. I see Malak who is the main antagonist and Bastila who is one of the protagonist's allies. Also two driods (HK-47 and T3-M4). This is probably Bioware's best selling title, but that may have something to do with it being Star Wars, but mostly because it's a damn good game.

This isn't a Bioware title, but it is a sequel to a Bioware title- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.


This cover has all the villains on it and HK-47 and T3-M4 again.

None of these titles featured a default protagonist so why start now Bioware? I'd blame EA, but Bioware started doing this before they were bought by EA. Why jump on the band wagon Bioware? Bioware go back to the old style covers with just relevant symbols, non player characters, villains or one like the cover of Jade Empire with both male and female protagonist on it. Or do what others have suggested and market it half and half. Equally, half and half. Not what they did with FemShep. She's still on the back cover of my Collector's Edition. I will say though that the Collector's edition of the game guide for ME2 is entirely FemShep in the screenshots.

Also, to the OP. I don't know if you know, but you can change your background on this site to have FemShep on it.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 03 juin 2013 - 05:51 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

As much as I would like to see this happen, I'm realistic enough to know it won't. At best, we will get the ME3 treatment with a "one side male, one side female" thing.

At best? What's wrong with equal treatment on this?

Well, I doubt it's gonna happen, that's what.

[katiebour]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mass effect 3 has both male and female shepards. It works on a reversable art cover inside the sleeve.



Not to mention the collectors edition has both of them on the same cover.




And than there's the fact that bioware made female trailers for mass effect 3 as well, taking more expense than was neccisary to do so.

So why are you listing it on your little rant?

A step in the right direction, no doubt. But a small one - a right one.

Note that you had to pay extra for it, this didn't come with the normal copy. And you had to flip it, there was no displaying the woman in the stores.

It would be the ideal solution if it were just done for regular copies. It could be fun if they had flipped the cover in 50% of the copies on display actually.

Added to that is the fact that the website and electronic copies of the game in Origin only have Sheploo art.  And while ME did a pretty good job on their merch with having both m! and f!shep, a glance in the DA webstore reveals Garrett on pretty much everything DA2.  Marian is AWOL.

http://biowarestore....dragon-age.html

[Cainhurst Crow]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mass effect 3 has both male and female shepards. It works on a reversable art cover inside the sleeve.

-snip-

Not to mention the collectors edition has both of them on the same cover.

-snip-


And than there's the fact that bioware made female trailers for mass effect 3 as well, taking more expense than was neccisary to do so.

So why are you listing it on your little rant?

A step in the right direction, no doubt. But a small one - a right one.

Note that you had to pay extra for it, this didn't come with the normal copy. And you had to flip it, there was no displaying the woman in the stores.

It would be the ideal solution if it were just done for regular copies. It could be fun if they had flipped the cover in 50% of the copies on display actually.

I do believe the normal copies of the game did in fact have the reversible cover art. I don't understnad what it is your advocating for though?

Female exclusive cover art with no male protaganist? No characters on the covers? I don't get it.

I am at least glad you consider it in your rational, most people who debate on the internet would simply ignore it if it didn't help their point much.

[p1013]

The Sin wrote...

katiebour wrote...

The Sin wrote...

@katiebur.

So what if Femshep is in the back of the book cover ? Does the drawing of a fictitious person and their positions in a book have any relation to women discrimination ? Do you see men going around parroting the fact that because Male Shepard is on the front of the box cover and in front of the books, men are somehow superior than women  ? 

I can understand the notion of having both genders in box covers but the reasoning is just absurd. Femshep is at the back so women are oppressed. Femshep is not the default box cover so she is oppressed..

I will say it again:- We live in a society where it is politically incorrect to be men

I have never used the word oppressed in any of my posts.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Yes, fem!Shep only being in the back of a book matters, because she should be just as important as man!Shep.  If he's in the front of the book, she should be too.

They should be equal, right?  Because that's the idea, that you can play as either a man or a woman and have an equal experience, right?

Anyway, I didn't spend a ton of time poring over the book- I just took a peek, looked in vain for fem!Shep, and when I found her in the very back, it bothered me.  I would have liked to have seen more of her through the book, to illustrate that she, too, is a hero.

Imagine that you have a daughter, and you love her very much.  You play video games with her.  You look through an art book together, or you look at the rows and rows of games in stores with man!heroes on the cover.

Your daughter asks you, "Daddy, where are the girl heroes?"

Do you tell her a kitchen joke?  Do you tell her that only boys are heroes?  Do you flip through the art book, looking for pictures, coming up with nothing until you get to the very last page?  Do you buy her a Barbie game where everything is pink and where, instead of saving the world, her options are to play dress-up?

I want to see advertising that reinforces that BOTH men AND women can be the hero.  If we have flippable box art, I want to see half of the boxes flipped so that fem!protag is showing in stores.  I want to be able to go to the game's website and see fem!protag proudly displayed.  I want to see a game trailer where fem!protag is being awesome and kicking ass.  I want to see girl heroes too.

And right now I don't, as I've illustrated with all of my various links and screenshots.  I'd like that to change, and that is my purpose in creating this thread.

I have no intention of marrying or having children. That said if a women asks me about women heroes I would point them to Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Hawkgirl, Black Widow, Zatanna, Rogue, Elektra, Wasp...the list is endless.....

And all of those women are highly sexualized and seen a subordinate to the male characters in their comics. Check out the Hawkeye Project, which confronts the way women are protrayed on comic book covers. It's enlightening.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rabillion wrote...

I hated DAO's cover but loved DA2's. My gaming friends make impulse purchases all the time, so unless the cover is pretty they'll spend their money on something else.

The point is to generate sales, not cater to a vocal minority. Having macho men on covers gets old, yeah, but they're there for a reason.

?

The only difference between the DA2 cover and the DA:O one was having a MaleHawke underneath a blood soaked 2, rather than having a blood soaked dragon. Thats not a world of difference (unless you are talking about non-North American box art, in which case I don't know what they did for either game). 

[katiebour]

Exile Isan wrote...

None of these titles featured a default protagonist so why start now Bioware? I'd blame EA, but Bioware started doing this before they were bought by EA. Why jump on the band wagon Bioware? Bioware go back to the old style covers with just relevant symbols, non player characters, villains or one like the cover of Jade Empire with both male and female protagonist on it. Or do what others have suggested and market it half and half. Equally, half and half. Not what they did with FemShep. She's still on the back cover of my Collector's Edition. I will say though that the Collector's edition of the game guide for ME2 is entirely FemShep in the screenshots.

Also, to the OP. I don't know if you know, but you can change your background on this site to have FemShep on it.

O.O you can?  /goes hunting for button to switch it

[Knight of Dane]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Mass effect 3 has both male and female shepards. It works on a reversable art cover inside the sleeve.

-snip-

Not to mention the collectors edition has both of them on the same cover.

-snip-


And than there's the fact that bioware made female trailers for mass effect 3 as well, taking more expense than was neccisary to do so.

So why are you listing it on your little rant?

A step in the right direction, no doubt. But a small one - a right one.

Note that you had to pay extra for it, this didn't come with the normal copy. And you had to flip it, there was no displaying the woman in the stores.

It would be the ideal solution if it were just done for regular copies. It could be fun if they had flipped the cover in 50% of the copies on display actually.

I do believe the normal copies of the game did in fact have the reversible cover art. I don't understnad what it is your advocating for though?

Female exclusive cover art with no male protaganist? No characters on the covers? I don't get it.

I am at least glad you consider it in your rational, most people who debate on the internet would simply ignore it if it didn't help their point much.

Double cover = good compromise.
Let the consumer do whatever they want with it when they made their purchase.

I might even have made a paper plane with the male and female Shepard on each wing and call it Normandy SR3!