700 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

I'd like to add that I've stopped numerous times to read the backside of a game cover to look for more info when I've seen a badass woman on the cover. So it certainly happens. Sadly, such covers are more rare nowadays than they used to be.

[bleetman]

I'd absolutely go for that, for no other reason than to counteract the infuriating behaviour the games industry exercises regarding female characters.

[Ineffable Igor]

Omg, gasp, what if the reason the (slight) majority of gamers are men is because video games are ONLY marketed to men?

What a crazy thought.

No though, in all seriousness, the ONLY reason I am a gamer is because I discovered nwn when I was ten and was just floored and delighted that I could actually play as a girl.  I only found out because I saw my brother doing character creation in passing, the box art told me nothing. 

Making it apparent to women at a glance that they can play the game as a character they can see themselves in will probably draw in people who otherwise would never have considered buying the game, so...how is expanding their audience bad for business?  Is a woman on the cover of an already established game franchise going to be enough to scare off that many dudebros who aren't already fans?  If so, well, maybe it'll bring in enough new female players to make up for it.  Feeling like a product is actually being marketed to you is a big incentive to check it out.

Idealy, do both, like has previously been suggested, a 50/50 split on the front cover, everyone's happy and it's most accurately representative of the available options.

[Seboist]

They should feature an intersexed protagonist on the cover for equality and inclusiveness' sake.

[katiebour]

ClavicleGKS wrote...

I'm a guy. I play male and female protagonists. But this issue is much bigger than that preference. The fact that we live in a world where it's difficult for a big company to even launch and develop a concept because it has a female protagonist (Remember Me) is worrying. The fact that we live in a world that presumes only men can be real gamers, real consumers, and really appreciate the work and creativity that has gone into a game -- that's about as stupid, and as troubling, as the idea that only white guys can save the world. But that's what box-art seems to tell us.

Part of it might come down to the fact that game-devs seem less willing to take risks anymore. If something might lose them a tiny percentage of their market (while perhaps gaining them new customers, or increasing the loyalty of another section), then it just won't float. That's why we see the vast majority of resources in gaming going towards block-buster bi-annual games that never change for the better, and get worse with age.

And then there's stuff like the Bioware RPGs. I'd like to think they're different. I think they should look it.

Beyond my personal preference, I think it's important to break the mold, send a message. An abstract box-art would be all well and good, but it wouldn't say what box-art with a female protagonist, or a 50-50 split on the front cover would.

Far from alienating me, I think it'd say something that very few other game promo materials have ever said before, to a substantially large number of fans. (And, really, the biggest, most passionate lovers of games like these that I've ever had the pleasure of meeting have been women.)

Rather than alienating me, it would let me know that, wow, these developers have their **** together. They're willing to change things. They recognise that their fan-base isn't just its majority: it's diverse, and wonderful for it. And the same goes for their characters.

So yeah. I think it's a point that needs to be made.

/rant.

Beautifully said, and thank you.

[KiwiQuiche]

Seboist wrote...

They should feature an intersexed protagonist on the cover for equality and inclusiveness' sake.

Maybe they could stick Mae on the cover.

[LoonySpectre]

Speaking more on topic, I feel for some reason that the default Inquisitor will be female. Both Seekers (some kind of Chantry's Internal Affairs, as far as I understand) we met in the games were female and very badass (Cassandra Pentaghast and Leliana).

[Kidd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Seboist wrote...

They should feature an intersexed protagonist on the cover for equality and inclusiveness' sake.

Maybe they could stick Mae on the cover.

I'd buy an extra copy just to show support =)

[KiwiQuiche]

You have a point, Loony. Especially since the Chantry is mostly made up of women, with the Divine herself. And I have no doubt the Chantry will be in the thick of things in DAI.

(Off topic but Kidd, I love your siggie XD)

[PlasmaCheese]

Kingroxas wrote...

Chanda wrote...

Sure. Put a dragon on the box. That works.

Only if we get a reversible cover with a Drake on the other side.....

Lmao.

Well, I didn't read through every page, but here's my opinion.
I'm a woman gamer, and I couldn't care less about coverart.

[K_Tabris]

Since the percentage of female gamers are growing, it would make sense to market the game as being able to play as a woman. If not on the front cover (I also like the idea of putting a symbol or a dragon on the cover instead of the dudebro male inquisitor), at least make her significant in the marketing. Claiming that it won't sell is kinda bullsh*t if you ask me.
The franchise is established, more women are playing games, and if men are really turned off by the ability to play as a woman, then they need to figure out why they are so insecure in their own sexuality, imo.

[Little Princess Peach]

why can't they have both pc's on the front cover? and the npcs behind them?

[MoosenLoosen]

I just want to take a second to add to this discussion.

I actually have no woman friends who don't play video games. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are a real hit with all of them. Even my mother who's on the back end of middle age likes video games. The only people I know who play farmville are men in their twenties and my great-aunt. Anecdotes work both ways, you know.

The problem is that there are far too many men who are used to this industry catering to their every whim. Do we want a girl who lays down and takes it or a girl who resists? Those appear to be the defining two poles of female characterisation where casual games are concerned. As much as they can laugh it off and deny it, it truly does cause them discomfort when faced with the concept of not being the group being pandered to.
They're very much allowed to try, however, to insinuate that debating something like this, box art, is insignificant. However, if they find it such an insignificant thing and they're telling us they aren't affected by the box art, why are they so opposed to changing it to make others feel more welcome? As much as your average dudebro will complain that there aren't any manic pixie dreamgirls women open about their gaming, they're doing the absolute opposite of actually getting things to change.

Of course, if you ask them about this, you will inevitably be shot down. They will use every tactic under the sun to make you feel like your stance on things is futile. They'll say you're overreacting and that other women don't care, they'll express their boredom as if you actually care, or even stoop to comparing your opinion to invading Poland and exterminating Jewish people. They will tell you all about how their other woman friends think the box art is just fine! (Conveniently, these women friends don't even have to exist.) They'll say women aren't the majority and they'll even go as far as to try to convince you you that quintessential straight white guy with shaved head and stubble on the front of the box is the epitome of video game marketing and that's the way it's always going to be.

In fact, it's really interesting seeing this dynamic work from an outsider's perspective if you ever get the opportunity. Laughing women into silence, it seems, is brilliant tactic in other circles beyond the realms of more inclusionary games (which Bioware excels at) so much that in order to fit in you will somehow find yourself spewing kitchen jokes through the headset to appease your dudebro friends as your worth silently putrifies like a tuna sandwich in the front pocket of the schoolbag of your shame.
The thing is that this thread and the others like it, no matter how much you scoff about it, are needed. Sarah Kerrigan and her queen b**** of the universe speech is probably an appropriate thing to quote here, because I know I as a little kid in my room was squealing in delight every time I heard it.

It's not the most important thing in the world, we know that, but social issues don't happen somewhere else off in an alternate dimension. They show up in workplaces, at home, on the internet, when you're out somewhere, and protests waving banners and signs and petitions aren't the only way to fix them. They're everywhere. So why is it so hard to believe that it might just happen at Bioware?

Modifié par MoosenLoosen, 03 juin 2013 - 11:30 .

[9TailsFox]

KallianaTabris wrote...

Since the percentage of female gamers are growing, it would make sense to market the game as being able to play as a woman. If not on the front cover (I also like the idea of putting a symbol or a dragon on the cover instead of the dudebro male inquisitor), at least make her significant in the marketing. Claiming that it won't sell is kinda bullsh*t if you ask me.
The franchise is established, more women are playing games, and if men are really turned off by the ability to play as a woman, then they need to figure out why they are so insecure in their own sexuality, imo.

If women are really turned off by the ability to play as a man, then
they need to figure out why they are so insecure in their own sexuality,
imo. See I can do the same. Please can you stop this conspiracy that game creators hate women. Why they can't put on cover what they want not not be insulted. I don't care about cover I buy digital version. Just put black female gay transexual eskimo on cover for what I care. I am white male and if I can, I play blue male chiss ftw. If not I don't cry to developers they don't make all people blue. Best comet was person who play MShep only because he was on cover then can pick Shep the best how:blink:

[KiwiQuiche]

Hey 9Tails, I don't think you're trying hard enough.

[Little Princess Peach]

face it female gamers are still new to the world of gaming, before females would not dare to even say that they played video games, because of being mocked, video games in general have evolved in a way that supports both genders, you CAN play as a female,
In the old days on games, you never had the abilities to choose gender, customize players,nor choose weapons.

You can't expect the gaming industry to change over night, these sort of changes, happen slowly I bet by the time most of us a re in our 50's games would be more open to the female idea.

[metatheurgist]

Lenticular cover, 2 pics from different angles:

For the Ladies : Beefcake dude with shirt off.
For the Gents: Hot busty chick with bikini armor.

[LarryDavid]

katiebour wrote...

"guys been the majority of gamers relate better to males, and not what you just wrote."

Actually 47% of gamers are women.

So yeah, it's a majority, but it's a slim one.  Why is it then that 47% of video game covers don't feature women?

Also let me quote this:

Forty-seven percent of all players are women, and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.[/list]Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).[/list]Source:  http://www.theesa.co.../gameplayer.asp

Also female gamers make up two-thirds of the online gaming community, and play on average four hours more a week than men.  The average male player has been playing for 16 years- the average female player, for 12.

- 47% of all gamers being women means that there are still about 12% more male gamers.

- Why would anyone compare the amount of adult female gamers with the amount of non-adult male gamers, besides of being able to write something like : ... female gamers... more than .... male gamers. 

- For simplicity assuming that the online and offline gaming community contain the same number of gamers and that they are mutually exclusive, the observation that two-thirds of the online gaming communty is female means that there are >2.5 times more male than female players in the offline gaming community.

Anyways, these statistics (and the statistics from those websites) are completely irrelevant. Only statistics about the audience DA targets are relevant and the effect the frontcover has on their expected sales.

If a female protagonist on the box had no influence on the revenue, I have no problem with it. If it would increase sales, I support your claim. If not, I hope never to see a female protagonist on the box of a DA game.

[Trikormadenadon]

metatheurgist wrote...

Lenticular cover, 2 pics from different angles:

For the Ladies : Beefcake dude with shirt off.
For the Gents: Hot busty chick with bikini armor.

Or to be more in line with the OP:

For the ladies: Good looking but not flauntingly sexy female
For the males: Nomal Dudebro walking toward viewer

[MoosenLoosen]

Tharja wrote...

face it female gamers are still new to the world of gaming, before females would not dare to even say that they played video games, because of being mocked, video games in general have evolved in a way that supports both genders, you CAN play as a female,
In the old days on games, you never had the abilities to choose gender, customize players,nor choose weapons.

You can't expect the gaming industry to change over night, these sort of changes, happen slowly I bet by the time most of us a re in our 50's games would be more open to the female idea.

You're actually kidding, right? You're kidding. You have to be. Or do you live on another planet that isn't Earth?
Women have been gaming ever since men have been gaming. Gaming isn't a male-exclusive activity and it never has been.
For your trouble, here's a picture of an Atari advertisement from the late 1970s directed at girls. That was on the first page of google images. God forbid you actually claim something that actually has base in fact.
http://whosaidshecou...orlds.jpg?w=490

[Asdrubael Vect]

Renmiri1 wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

47 and most of them play facebook games lol.
There's a reason 82% played alphamaleshep while only a 18% played femshep.

Yup

1)~80% of ME 1-3 play maleshep so this bad reason but still a reason

2)and yet our maleshep with "many romances" have

Liara romance: she was the only normal female romance character in me 1...but in me 2 she was became a real **** who not really care about shepard death...so go and **** with Vorcha(i like Vorcha race) some  blue asari **** with eyebrows from ME 2-3, my shepard have a good memory and does not forgive any betrayals

Ashley romance: srly?  she is annoying and stupid "racist" soldier who violates the orders of the commander. she is good only for Vega or Anderson.  many people kill her in ME 1 or ME 3(i am not kill her in me 1 because she was a 2 romance option but i very regret about this in ME 2 and ME 3...sorry Kaidan you was a very boring but at least a not so bad man in ME 3 who more deserved to be Spectre)

"Female Michael Jackson" AKA Miranda romance: barren GMO who was born and raised to be smart sexdoll and who later worked for cerbeus and be a right hand of Illusive man(he save us from mindcontroller chip what Miranda wanted for us)...nuff said

Jack romance: cerberus experiment who later became a bald crazy pirate-terrorist ****.
this romance is for very extreme renegade Shep or Zaeed or Vega

Kelly romance: some of cerbeus agents, former stripper which feeds our fish and read our mail...in most cases die in the end of ME 2 if she survive in ME 3 she was  became a "poor beggar"

Diana romance: Shepard not like any reporters:D and you can have romance with her only if you get her on the ship and tell all military secrets, so she is just one of reporter **** what we can see in many movies...nuff said

so the only good  female romance what our male shepard have it is Liara in ME 1 and only Tali in ME 2-3

3)the only real good romance(according to my straight male eyes) characters what our Shepard have is
Femshep-Garrus
MaleShep-Tali

and not so good romances as Liara(fem/maleshep)...and MAYBE boring Kaidan for femshep(but i am not really know was he good for femshep or not)

maybe Samantha was a good for femshep, at least she is funny

others was a really bad for many reasons

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 03 juin 2013 - 12:13 .

[Little Princess Peach]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Tharja wrote...

face it female gamers are still new to the world of gaming, before females would not dare to even say that they played video games, because of being mocked, video games in general have evolved in a way that supports both genders, you CAN play as a female,
In the old days on games, you never had the abilities to choose gender, customize players,nor choose weapons.

You can't expect the gaming industry to change over night, these sort of changes, happen slowly I bet by the time most of us a re in our 50's games would be more open to the female idea.

You're actually kidding, right? You're kidding. You have to be. Or do you live on another planet that isn't Earth?
Women have been gaming ever since men have been gaming. Gaming isn't a male-exclusive activity and it never has been.
For your trouble, here's a picture of an Atari advertisement from the late 1970s directed at girls. That was on the first page of google images. God forbid you actually claim something that actually has base in fact.
http://whosaidshecou...orlds.jpg?w=490

I did not say that, wemon have been shy in the past about computer games thats what I was trying to say, there is no need to bite off my head

Modifié par Tharja, 03 juin 2013 - 12:01 .

[chuckles471]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I just want to take a second to add to this discussion.

I actually have no woman friends who don't play video games. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are a real hit with all of them. Even my mother who's on the back end of middle age likes video games. The only people I know who play farmville are men in their twenties and my great-aunt. Anecdotes work both ways, you know.

The problem is that there are far too many men who are used to this industry catering to their every whim. Do we want a girl who lays down and takes it or a girl who resists? Those appear to be the defining two poles of female characterisation where casual games are concerned. As much as they can laugh it off and deny it, it truly does cause them discomfort when faced with the concept of not being the group being pandered to.
They're very much allowed to try, however, to insinuate that debating something like this, box art, is insignificant. However, if they find it such an insignificant thing and they're telling us they aren't affected by the box art, why are they so opposed to changing it to make others feel more welcome? As much as your average dudebro will complain that there aren't any manic pixie dreamgirls women open about their gaming, they're doing the absolute opposite of actually getting things to change.

Of course, if you ask them about this, you will inevitably be shot down. They will use every tactic under the sun to make you feel like your stance on things is futile. They'll say you're overreacting and that other women don't care, they'll express their boredom as if you actually care, or even stoop to comparing your opinion to invading Poland and exterminating Jewish people. They will tell you all about how their other woman friends think the box art is just fine! (Conveniently, these women friends don't even have to exist.) They'll say women aren't the majority and they'll even go as far as to try to convince you you that quintessential straight white guy with shaved head and stubble on the front of the box is the epitome of video game marketing and that's the way it's always going to be.

In fact, it's really interesting seeing this dynamic work from an outsider's perspective if you ever get the opportunity. Laughing women into silence, it seems, is brilliant tactic in other circles beyond the realms of more inclusionary games (which Bioware excels at) so much that in order to fit in you will somehow find yourself spewing kitchen jokes through the headset to appease your dudebro friends as your worth silently putrifies like a tuna sandwich in the front pocket of the schoolbag of your shame.
The thing is that this thread and the others like it, no matter how much you scoff about it, are needed. Sarah Kerrigan and her queen b**** of the universe speech is probably an appropriate thing to quote here, because I know I as a little kid in my room was squealing in delight every time I heard it.

It's not the most important thing in the world, we know that, but social issues don't happen somewhere else off in an alternate dimension. They show up in workplaces, at home, on the internet, when you're out somewhere, and protests waving banners and signs and petitions aren't the only way to fix them. They're everywhere. So why is it so hard to believe that it might just happen at Bioware?

By using "Dudebro", you are actually using a stereotype to discribe a large group of people, to anybody who doesn't think like you.  

Also you say their female friends don't exist but yours do. 

Yes, a lot can be done to improve box art.  But the overreaction on both sides is extreme.  Some people complained about the cover of batman arhkam city, for not have Catwomen (A DLC character even) on the front cover.

Maybe instead of the OP being Ignorant and slagging off Final Fantasy, she could look to them.  Outside of America(they really don't think highly of you guys,"pretty pictures") Final Fantasy games have white covers with just the title.  If I can remember right the character featured on the back of FFX was Yuna, and Tidus was only shown on a small gameplay screenshot.

[Kidd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

(Off topic but Kidd, I love your siggie XD)

Glad you like it! I didn't write the lyrics or draw my beautiful avatar to go with it, though. I'm just somebody who absorbed all the awesomeness into my profile =)

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I just want to take a second to add to this discussion.

Thank you for that wonderful post!

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Sarah Kerrigan and her queen b**** of the universe speech is probably an appropriate thing to quote here, because I know I as a little kid in my room was squealing in delight every time I heard it.

Your wish is my command. (rewatching that makes me sad all over again about what happened to SC2's writing)

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh look....it's this thread again.
People overacting and finding significance in insignificant stuff again. I weep for humanity.

Yup, god forbid some people want equality with gender in media.

Your crusade is misguided.

Because box covers that no normal person cares about are not a tool of political propaganda nor the measure of euqality. It's nothing more than visual pandering - and this is coming from someone who likes peretty women on
covers. Any attempt to turn box covers into a political statement or measure of mysgony is seriously delluding themselves and fighting windmills.

Who in their right minds buys a game purely based on the cover?

Besides, equality is a illusion anyway.