700 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I seriously don't get the logic behind making SO.MUCH.FUSS about box covers. 

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

I mean, is there ANYTHING on that box covers or on the web icons that even remotely implies discrimination of women ? Is there any picture in the background with an abused or beaten women in it ? Is the any depiction of women being oppressed ?

Also if we really want to get politically correct and pedantic, those box covers only feature white men. Does that mean black men and asian men are discriminated and oppressed ? We also saw for ME3 that femshep on the box art was a white redhead. Does that mean black women and asian women are discriminated ? 

So I don't get it why having men on box covers = women discrimination or women oppression ?

Do people here actually know the meaning of oppression or discrimination ?!

How is changing the box art going to change the industry ? 

The issues I have here are these :-

Why is it considered discrimination to have men on the cover of video games disc covers?

Why do people think not having women on the cover of video games disk covers equals discrimination and oppression? 

What have these men on the cover of these disc covers done to oppress women ? What have Male Shepard, Male Hawke, Human Male Soldier done to opress women so much that it is wrong for them to be on the front cover of icons and game disc covers ? 

Modifié par The Sin, 03 juin 2013 - 12:18 .

[myrrhcat]

All these men coming in and proclaiming that It Just Wouldn't Be Profitable and It Wouldn't Make A Difference and It's Not A Political Statement are just proving the point.

Men, it doesn't affect you, so keep your opinion to yourself. Putting a woman on the cover WOULD NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST. You would still buy the game, you would still get to play as your generic white boy character, and you would still enjoy it just as much. Meanwhile, we female gamers would actually get to see ourselves on the cover for once, and get a nice acknowledgement that our gender doesn't exist just as oversexualized arm candy for the male hero.

I don't want a cover with both male and female protags (although it'd be a step up) and I don't want a cover with no protag at all. We NEED to see women on the box art. Kicking ass. All by themselves. Being the hero. If you're about to step in and calmly explain why "you don't have a problem with it, but it'd never happen because blah blah blah blah," don't. Instead, remember that YOU DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, so why not support it?

And if you do have a problem with it, walk off a nice cliff.

[HolyAvenger]

Put neither on the cover. Problem solved.

[Trikormadenadon]

The Sin wrote...

I seriously don't get the logic behind making SO.MUCH.FUSS about box covers. 

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

I mean, is there ANYTHING on that box covers or on the web icons that even remotely implies discrimination of women ? Is there any picture in the background with an abused or beaten women in it ? Is the any depiction of women being oppressed ?

Also if we really want to get politically correct and pedantic, those box covers only feature white men. Does that mean black men and asian men are discriminated and oppressed ? We also saw for ME3 that femshep on the box art was a white redhead. Does that mean black women and asian women are discriminated ? 

So I don't get it why having men on box covers = women discrimination or women oppression ?

Do people here actually know the meaning of oppression or discrimination ?!

How is changing the box art going to change the industry ? 

The issues I have here are these :-

Why is it considered discrimination to have men on the cover of video games disc covers?

Why do people think not having women on the cover of video games disk covers equals discrimination and oppression? 

What have these men on the cover of these disc covers done to oppress women ? What have Male Shepard, Male Hawke, Human Male Soldier done to opress women so much that it is wrong for them to be on the front cover of icons and game disc covers ? 

Yup. It's just extremist feminist sexism.

I have never heard a man look at a cover of a game and see a female protagonist and immediately cry oppression of men.

LOL

Stupidity at its finest.

[Asdrubael Vect]

put any non-human character on the box

maybe Fiona who fighting with Lambert-mages fight with Templars

or burning Chantry

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 03 juin 2013 - 12:27 .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

myrrhcat wrote...

All these men coming in and proclaiming that It Just Wouldn't Be Profitable and It Wouldn't Make A Difference and It's Not A Political Statement are just proving the point.

Men, it doesn't affect you, so keep your opinion to yourself. Putting a woman on the cover WOULD NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST. You would still buy the game, you would still get to play as your generic white boy character, and you would still enjoy it just as much. Meanwhile, we female gamers would actually get to see ourselves on the cover for once, and get a nice acknowledgement that our gender doesn't exist just as oversexualized arm candy for the male hero.

I don't want a cover with both male and female protags (although it'd be a step up) and I don't want a cover with no protag at all. We NEED to see women on the box art. Kicking ass. All by themselves. Being the hero. If you're about to step in and calmly explain why "you don't have a problem with it, but it'd never happen because blah blah blah blah," don't. Instead, remember that YOU DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, so why not support it?

And if you do have a problem with it, walk off a nice cliff.

If having women on box art would not and should not affect men then why women should be affected if men are in the box art ? You would still buy the game, you would still play it.

I don't know why the hate against white men / white boy. What wrong have they done to you as a women now ? Appearing on a box cover is a crime ? 

You are not seeing yourselves on the box cover, you are seeing your characters. 

Just because a female doesn't appear on the box art of a video game doesn't imply that females do not exist. It is like saying because perfume ads feature mostly women, men who use perfumes don't exist. Or that since posters of 100 athletes are feature black men, other groups of men who run 100 meters do not exist. 

Why should you dictate what men do and do not have problem with. Men have problem with women steering too much racket up about box covers. 

Wait, so if men don't agree with your viewpoints, we should go and commit suicide? How very tolerant of you. 

[Shevy]

For a game like DA with character creation involved I would want to see a cover without the protagonist, but box art doesn't influence my buy intention anyway.

But I agree that "bald, muscular, "cool as f*** looking" dudebro walking towards you while everything around him explodes" is really boring.

[myrrhcat]

It's not discrimination to put men on the box, it's discrimination to not put women on the box. Because if you can play as either a man or a woman, but you only ever see a man on the cover, it's like they're trying to pretend the female option isn't there. This is a really easy concept.

If you and another dude are in a band, and you collaborate equally but the record company always puts his face on your album covers and refuses your requests to be on them, you're gonna be pissed, right?

[KiwiQuiche]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

The Sin wrote...

I seriously don't get the logic behind making SO.MUCH.FUSS about box covers. 

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

I mean, is there ANYTHING on that box covers or on the web icons that even remotely implies discrimination of women ? Is there any picture in the background with an abused or beaten women in it ? Is the any depiction of women being oppressed ?

Also if we really want to get politically correct and pedantic, those box covers only feature white men. Does that mean black men and asian men are discriminated and oppressed ? We also saw for ME3 that femshep on the box art was a white redhead. Does that mean black women and asian women are discriminated ? 

So I don't get it why having men on box covers = women discrimination or women oppression ?

Do people here actually know the meaning of oppression or discrimination ?!

How is changing the box art going to change the industry ? 

The issues I have here are these :-

Why is it considered discrimination to have men on the cover of video games disc covers?

Why do people think not having women on the cover of video games disk covers equals discrimination and oppression? 

What have these men on the cover of these disc covers done to oppress women ? What have Male Shepard, Male Hawke, Human Male Soldier done to opress women so much that it is wrong for them to be on the front cover of icons and game disc covers ? 

Yup. It's just extremist feminist sexism.

I have never heard a man look at a cover of a game and see a female protagonist and immediately cry oppression of men.

LOL

Stupidity at its finest.

Point proven.

[MoosenLoosen]

chuckles471 wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I just want to take a second to add to this discussion. /snipped

By using "Dudebro", you are actually using a stereotype to discribe a large group of people, to anybody who doesn't think like you.  

Also you say their female friends don't exist but yours do. 

Yes, a lot can be done to improve box art.  But the overreaction on both sides is extreme.  Some people complained about the cover of batman arhkam city, for not have Catwomen (A DLC character even) on the front cover.

Maybe instead of the OP being Ignorant and slagging off Final Fantasy, she could look to them.  Outside of America(they really don't think highly of you guys,"pretty pictures") Final Fantasy games have white covers with just the title.  If I can remember right the character featured on the back of FFX was Yuna, and Tidus was only shown on a small gameplay screenshot.

I'm not american.

Though, since it appears you didn't quite grasp it the first time, my point there is that anyone can use an anecdote to sway or even derail a discussion. The facts are right there. Half of gamers are women. Why is asking for a simple change to accommodate us and make us feel more comfortable in a community that is so often hostile suddenly extreme? Is it harming you?
Saying that a lot can be done to improve something doesn't automatically improve it.

I'm not the OP and I've never even played Final Fantasy. I don't have an opinion on it because I know nothing about it apart from the infamous abundance of belts. Final Fantasy is not the point here, Dragon Age is. They appear to be games of a different kind altogether.
As for Arkham City, I've never played that either. Comic franchises don't interest me. Catwoman, though, as you say, is a DLC character. Assumably being a game about Batman there is no female protagonist to be put on the cover, which makes the two incomparable for the purpose of this discussion.

Well done on figuring out that dudebro is a stereotype, though. Really. Well done.

This thread is filled with people who don't think like me, or you, or anyone. I even disagree with others who have this same opinion sometimes, believe it or not. Simply stating that I am stereotyping a group for ease of speaking about them does not immediately void my point neither does it do anything to further the discussion.

Tharja wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Tharja wrote... /snipped

You're actually kidding, right? You're kidding. You have to be. Or do you live on another planet that isn't Earth?
Women have been gaming ever since men have been gaming. Gaming isn't a male-exclusive activity and it never has been.
For your trouble, here's a picture of an Atari advertisement from the late 1970s directed at girls. That was on the first page of google images. God forbid you actually claim something that actually has base in fact.
http://whosaidshecou...orlds.jpg?w=490

I did not say that, wemon have been shy in the past about computer games thats what I was trying to say, there is no need to bite off my head 

Then I'm sorry that I bit your head off about it. Some of us are shy, that's true, but I think that's rather for being told to shut up and let the boys talk than an inherent trait.

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

DAIII: Kitchen Chronicles

Fem protagonist definately belongs on the cover of that.

[Kidd]

The Sin wrote...

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

Obviously we don't, since men already occupy all the space of the acting role. And the moment somebody asks for just one game to break the status quo, we get walls of texts like what you and several others have given us here.

I'm not saying you're a bad person btw, please don't get defensive. I'd just like if you simply pondered what I said for a while.

[Trikormadenadon]

myrrhcat wrote...

Men, it doesn't affect you, so keep your opinion to yourself. Putting a woman on the cover WOULD NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST.

As soon as you tell someone they should keep their opinion to themselves, you are no longer allowed to voice your opinion either....

As for the second half of the quote...Putting a man on the cover SHOULD NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST EITHER.

[KiwiQuiche]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

DAIII: Kitchen Chronicles

"Women belong in the kitchen. Men belong in the kitchen. Everyone belongs in the kitchen. The kitchen has food."

But nice stereotype there. You think that witty line up on your own?

[Reznore57]

I don't think it's about opression , The Sin.
And it's not about hating man at all.
It's just male are heroes , there's countless stories about them , they're the poster boys of adventures etc..
And often females are just in stories to help the male hero achieve whatever...

It's a bit sad for women .
I was reading a book about mythology months ago , and well the big role for women was motherhood , or getting kidnapped , or waiting for husband hero to finish his super world shattering business.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

The Sin wrote...

I seriously don't get the logic behind making SO.MUCH.FUSS about box covers. 

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

I mean, is there ANYTHING on that box covers or on the web icons that even remotely implies discrimination of women ? Is there any picture in the background with an abused or beaten women in it ? Is the any depiction of women being oppressed ?

Also if we really want to get politically correct and pedantic, those box covers only feature white men. Does that mean black men and asian men are discriminated and oppressed ? We also saw for ME3 that femshep on the box art was a white redhead. Does that mean black women and asian women are discriminated ? 

So I don't get it why having men on box covers = women discrimination or women oppression ?

Do people here actually know the meaning of oppression or discrimination ?!

How is changing the box art going to change the industry ? 

The issues I have here are these :-

Why is it considered discrimination to have men on the cover of video games disc covers?

Why do people think not having women on the cover of video games disk covers equals discrimination and oppression? 

What have these men on the cover of these disc covers done to oppress women ? What have Male Shepard, Male Hawke, Human Male Soldier done to opress women so much that it is wrong for them to be on the front cover of icons and game disc covers ? 

Yup. It's just extremist feminist sexism.

I have never heard a man look at a cover of a game and see a female protagonist and immediately cry oppression of men.

LOL

Stupidity at its finest.

Precisely. What have men done to deserve such hatred ? What have men in the video game industry actually done to deserve this much hate ? By putting pictures of other men on box covers ? Is putting men on box covers politically incorrect and illegal ? Does putting men on box covers of video games somehow contribute to an increase in violence against women, somehow contribue to an increase in women rape, somehow contribue to an increase in women trafficking? Does it ACTUALLY oppress anyone ? 

[katiebour]

LarryDavid wrote...

katiebour wrote...

"guys been the majority of gamers relate better to males, and not what you just wrote."

Actually 47% of gamers are women.

So yeah, it's a majority, but it's a slim one.  Why is it then that 47% of video game covers don't feature women?

Also let me quote this:

Forty-seven percent of all players are women, and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.[/list]Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).[/list]Source:  http://www.theesa.co.../gameplayer.asp

Also female gamers make up two-thirds of the online gaming community, and play on average four hours more a week than men.  The average male player has been playing for 16 years- the average female player, for 12.

- 47% of all gamers being women means that there are still about 12% more male gamers.

- Why would anyone compare the amount of adult female gamers with the amount of non-adult male gamers, besides of being able to write something like : ... female gamers... more than .... male gamers. 

- For simplicity assuming that the online and offline gaming community contain the same number of gamers and that they are mutually exclusive, the observation that two-thirds of the online gaming communty is female means that there are >2.5 times more male than female players in the offline gaming community.

Anyways, these statistics (and the statistics from those websites) are completely irrelevant. Only statistics about the audience DA targets are relevant and the effect the frontcover has on their expected sales.

If a female protagonist on the box had no influence on the revenue, I have no problem with it. If it would increase sales, I support your claim. If not, I hope never to see a female protagonist on the box of a DA game.

Your math is off.  If 47% of gamers are women, then 53% are men.  That's a difference of 6%, not 12%.

The reason the number of female adult gamers is compared to teenaged male gamers is because teenaged male gamers are the stereotypical audience to which video games are "supposed to" appeal, since conventional wisdom holds that they are the people who play games the most.  This statistic disproves that, showing that there are more adult female gamers than the stereotypical "target audience" of teenaged boys.

Assuming that online and offline gamers are mutually exclusive is a big assumption to make.  Most people I know who have played MMOs or Facebook games play other offline games as well.

Overall statistics about the gaming market ARE relevant, because they show that the audience of people who play and buy video games is changing.  The 2012 ESA study said that 48% of frequent video game purchasers are women.  The market has changed, and to see more recognition of that in game advertising would  a) promote gender equality in media and probably sell more games to women.  Both of those things are good things.

I want Bioware to sell more games, because I think they're a great, awesome, inclusive company and they make really fun games.  I want to support both of those things.  Bioware has been awesome about bucking traditional gender stereotypes in their games, not only with fem!protagonists, but also with powerful, assertive, awesome female characters like Isabela and Aveline.

And I think if they put their fem!protag on the box next to man!protag, not as a sex symbol or a love interest but as a powerful female avatar in her own right, they're more likely to appeal to the ever-broadening market of women who game.

Go look at the DA website:
http://dragonage.bioware.com/

Go watch the trailers for DA:O and DA2.  Where are the f!Wardens?  Where is f!Hawke?

If you were a woman and you saw that, would you think that those were games that would allow you to play as a woman?  Would you feel welcome?  Would you think this is a story about a woman being the heroine, about a woman saving the world/universe?  Both games can be played that way (woman-as hero.)  But neither advertises that fact in their trailers or box art, and that kind of sucks.

Mass Effect is pretty much the same.  Sheploo everywhere and f!Shep shunted off into corners here and there as a palliative.  

I went to the bookstore a few weeks back, found the Mass Effect Universe artbook, and flipped through it.  And there was f!Shep, in all her glory-

In the very back.

I'm tired of it.  I want the iconic character that celebrates my identity to be celebrated as much as her male counterpart.  I don't want to see her in the back of the artbook, like a last-minute thought.  I want to see her in a trailer, kicking ass and taking names.

I know I probably won't get all that.  But for now, I'd be thrilled just to see fem!protag on the damned cover for a change.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think it's about opression , The Sin.
And it's not about hating man at all.
It's just male are heroes , there's countless stories about them , they're the poster boys of adventures etc..
And often females are just in stories to help the male hero achieve whatever...

It's a bit sad for women .
I was reading a book about mythology months ago , and well the big role for women was motherhood , or getting kidnapped , or waiting for husband hero to finish his super world shattering business.

Sure. So why aren't the majority of the women posters here advocating for swappable box art covers ? Why do we have posters calling for men to go and kill themselves if they have a differing opinion ? 

[KiwiQuiche]

The Sin wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

The Sin wrote...

I seriously don't get the logic behind making SO.MUCH.FUSS about box covers. 

What the hell is wrong with having men on the box art of a game ? The OP makes it sound as if having men on the cover is a bad thing. 

We really live in an enviroment where it is politically incorrect to be male or to be men for some reason. 

I mean, is there ANYTHING on that box covers or on the web icons that even remotely implies discrimination of women ? Is there any picture in the background with an abused or beaten women in it ? Is the any depiction of women being oppressed ?

Also if we really want to get politically correct and pedantic, those box covers only feature white men. Does that mean black men and asian men are discriminated and oppressed ? We also saw for ME3 that femshep on the box art was a white redhead. Does that mean black women and asian women are discriminated ? 

So I don't get it why having men on box covers = women discrimination or women oppression ?

Do people here actually know the meaning of oppression or discrimination ?!

How is changing the box art going to change the industry ? 

The issues I have here are these :-

Why is it considered discrimination to have men on the cover of video games disc covers?

Why do people think not having women on the cover of video games disk covers equals discrimination and oppression? 

What have these men on the cover of these disc covers done to oppress women ? What have Male Shepard, Male Hawke, Human Male Soldier done to opress women so much that it is wrong for them to be on the front cover of icons and game disc covers ? 

Yup. It's just extremist feminist sexism.

I have never heard a man look at a cover of a game and see a female protagonist and immediately cry oppression of men.

LOL

Stupidity at its finest.

Precisely. What have men done to deserve such hatred ? What have men in the video game industry actually done to deserve this much hate ? By putting pictures of other men on box covers ? Is putting men on box covers politically incorrect and illegal ? Does putting men on box covers of video games somehow contribute to an increase in violence against women, somehow contribue to an increase in women rape, somehow contribue to an increase in women trafficking? Does it ACTUALLY oppress anyone ? 

Reading comprehension, what is it.

[Dio Demon]

myrrhcat wrote...

All these men coming in and proclaiming that It Just Wouldn't Be Profitable and It Wouldn't Make A Difference and It's Not A Political Statement are just proving the point.

Men, it doesn't affect you, so keep your opinion to yourself. Putting a woman on the cover WOULD NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST. You would still buy the game, you would still get to play as your generic white boy character, and you would still enjoy it just as much. Meanwhile, we female gamers would actually get to see ourselves on the cover for once, and get a nice acknowledgement that our gender doesn't exist just as oversexualized arm candy for the male hero.

I don't want a cover with both male and female protags (although it'd be a step up) and I don't want a cover with no protag at all. We NEED to see women on the box art. Kicking ass. All by themselves. Being the hero. If you're about to step in and calmly explain why "you don't have a problem with it, but it'd never happen because blah blah blah blah," don't. Instead, remember that YOU DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, so why not support it?

And if you do have a problem with it, walk off a nice cliff.

It does not matter who's on the box it can be male, female or a potato. The main point of the box art is to attract people's eye and hold their attention long enough for the person to pick up the box and read whhat's on the back and decide from that blurb if they're interested enough to buy it or not. Not to pander to anyone male or female, pandering gets people nowhere fast.

Also since I've seemed to disagree with your opinion could you point me to a nice cliff, I have a hard time telling good cliffs from bad ones!.

Modifié par Crazy Eyed One, 03 juin 2013 - 12:32 .

[KiwiQuiche]

I wouldn't mind having a potato as the cover art. Or one of those giant spiders that show up all over the place in DA games, which everyone seems to love.

[myrrhcat]

The Sin wrote...

If having women on box art would not and should not affect men then why women should be affected if men are in the box art ? You would still buy the game, you would still play it.

I don't know why the hate against white men / white boy. What wrong have they done to you as a women now ? Appearing on a box cover is a crime ? 

You are not seeing yourselves on the box cover, you are seeing your characters. 

Just because a female doesn't appear on the box art of a video game doesn't imply that females do not exist. It is like saying because perfume ads feature mostly women, men who use perfumes don't exist. Or that since posters of 100 athletes are feature black men, other groups of men who run 100 meters do not exist. 

Why should you dictate what men do and do not have problem with. Men have problem with women steering too much racket up about box covers. 

Wait, so if men don't agree with your viewpoints, we should go and commit suicide? How very tolerant of you. 

What I said was, I think you should walk off a cliff if you have a problem with putting a female protagonist on the cover. Because that's sexist. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it. If you are faced with the idea of having a female protag on the box and say "No, that is Bad," you're sexist.

I do still buy and play games with only men on the cover. I PUT UP WITH IT. But it's boring and stale.

I wouldn't mind if perfume ads had more men in them, or if posters of athletes featured people of other races (although... they do already.) If you started a campaign to show more men using perfume, I'd support you. So support me in this.

[Trikormadenadon]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think it's about opression , The Sin.
And it's not about hating man at all.
It's just male are heroes , there's countless stories about them , they're the poster boys of adventures etc..
And often females are just in stories to help the male hero achieve whatever...

It's a bit sad for women .
I was reading a book about mythology months ago , and well the big role for women was motherhood , or getting kidnapped , or waiting for husband hero to finish his super world shattering business.

Except that in a later post the OP says when she looks at the cover of ME and ME2 etc all she sees is that BW is trying to tell her that only white men can save the universe...so yeah, it's about oppression/discrimination against women for the OP.

EDIT: For spelling.

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 03 juin 2013 - 12:34 .