700 réponses à ce sujet

[Trikormadenadon]

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I'm telling men to keep their opinions to themselves for a reason. Same reason straight people shouldn't get to vote on gay marriage, or rich people shouldn't get to vote on benefits for the poor. Their opinion is irrelevant, and when they come in and give it anyway, it's condescending.

We're not talking about isolated incidents here. MOST video games out there do not have the female hero on the cover. 47% of gamers are women (according to whatever statistic was quoted before, idk if it's accurate but the point is there's a lot of us) so AT LEAST 47% of games should have women on the cover. If you're disproportionately representing men as the heroes and shoving women to the side, that's obviously sexist. Look at the big manly male hero! No female heroes here! This is a manly game for men! Women need not apply.

And the number of people in here making kitchen jokes just proves the point once again. If we're just making up problems that don't exist, then explain the sexist jokes. (And no, just because it's a "joke" doesn't mean it's not sexist. I've heard it a million times, and every time it's a little more obnoxious.)

So the people who are straight are not allowed to vote on a change to a society in which they live? If a person does not wish to live in a society where they allow gay marriage then they should be allowed to voice that opinion. You don't have to agree with their opinion but they absolutely have the right to voice it. Same with rich people. They pay taxes too so they absolutely get to vote for where the government sends the tax dollars.

This kind of extremist thought process is the thing that is condescending, not the people trying to voice their opinion.

"If a person does not wish to live in a society where they allow gay marriage" they're a terrible person. There's no difference between a society that allows gay marriage and one that doesn't, except that gay people get equal rights. If you're opposed to equal rights, seriously, step on a lego.

Of course, the great thing about Bioware is that, despite the whole only men on the cover art thing, they still do a great job of representation compared to other companies. Lots of queer romance options, always the opportunity to play as a female hero, and few chainmail bikinis. And all the sexist dudebros have complained about those things, but Bioware kept doing their thing. So hopefully we'll get them to budge on this issue too.

It doesn't matter if they are a terrible operson or not, they still have the right to voice their opinion.

[MoosenLoosen]

[double post]

Modifié par MoosenLoosen, 03 juin 2013 - 01:02 .

[MoosenLoosen]

[quote]MoosenLoosen wrote...

[quote]
I'm telling men to keep their opinions to themselves for a reason.
Same reason straight people shouldn't get to vote on gay marriage, or
rich people shouldn't get to vote on benefits for the poor. Their
opinion is irrelevant, and when they come in and give it anyway, it's
condescending.[/quote]

[quote]Oh Rly?
Heres a novel new thought  - your oppinion is irrelevant.

You are basicly stating that even oppinion contrary to yours are base and insulting and "bad" and should never be spoken. So much for freedom of speech.

[/quote][/quote]

Apart from your idiotic misconception that every country in the world has the right to freedom of speech, you also misinterpret it. Freedom of speech means that the government aren't allowed to tell you to stop talking. That doesn't apply to citizens. Sorry to burst your bubble.
[/quote]

[Wulfram]

I'd rather have a character that was actually going to appear in my game. Like a companion or the villian - or Morrigan or Leliana if they're going to be a big part of the story.

Or they could use the stylized narration cutscene artstyle to do someone of indeterminate gender.

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 juin 2013 - 01:05 .

[katiebour]

The Sin wrote...

@katiebur.

So what if Femshep is in the back of the book cover ? Does the drawing of a fictitious person and their positions in a book have any relation to women discrimination ? Do you see men going around parroting the fact that because Male Shepard is on the front of the box cover and in front of the books, men are somehow superior than women  ? 

I can understand the notion of having both genders in box covers but the reasoning is just absurd. Femshep is at the back so women are oppressed. Femshep is not the default box cover so she is oppressed..

I will say it again:- We live in a society where it is politically incorrect to be men

I have never used the word oppressed in any of my posts.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Yes, fem!Shep only being in the back of a book matters, because she should be just as important as man!Shep.  If he's in the front of the book, she should be too.

They should be equal, right?  Because that's the idea, that you can play as either a man or a woman and have an equal experience, right?

Anyway, I didn't spend a ton of time poring over the book- I just took a peek, looked in vain for fem!Shep, and when I found her in the very back, it bothered me.  I would have liked to have seen more of her through the book, to illustrate that she, too, is a hero.

Imagine that you have a daughter, and you love her very much.  You play video games with her.  You look through an art book together, or you look at the rows and rows of games in stores with man!heroes on the cover.

Your daughter asks you, "Daddy, where are the girl heroes?"

Do you tell her a kitchen joke?  Do you tell her that only boys are heroes?  Do you flip through the art book, looking for pictures, coming up with nothing until you get to the very last page?  Do you buy her a Barbie game where everything is pink and where, instead of saving the world, her options are to play dress-up?

I want to see advertising that reinforces that BOTH men AND women can be the hero.  If we have flippable box art, I want to see half of the boxes flipped so that fem!protag is showing in stores.  I want to be able to go to the game's website and see fem!protag proudly displayed.  I want to see a game trailer where fem!protag is being awesome and kicking ass.  I want to see girl heroes too.

And right now I don't, as I've illustrated with all of my various links and screenshots.  I'd like that to change, and that is my purpose in creating this thread.

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 01:07 .

[WildOrchid]

Totally agree. Either no characters or put BOTH genders in the box. It's not that hard to do.
It's a game that you have gender options, for god's sake, i don't understand why put the male and not the female too.

Ugh.

[Kaari G]

I'm gettin' real tired of people thinking that women don't buy the games. I buy more games than my husband does because he's more likely to play an MMO and I'm more likely to play single player games. I want to see more women on the box art! And honestly, so would my husband because he likes to look at women and usually plays female characters because he finds them attractive. Is he a little bit sexist because of that? Maybe, but it's also proof that a man would buy a game with a woman on the box art. So this whole marketing thing is wrong for two reasons. 1) women play games. 2) men like gorgeous badass women.

[NorwegianPirate]

The Sin wrote...

Does it really matter if the Grey Warden, the Hero Of Ferelden, the Savior of Amaranthine is white or is black or asian ? Does it matter if the Grey Warden has a vagina and breasts as opposed to penis and scrotum? Does it really matter ?

It does matter in a world where the overwhelming majority of all heroes in every piece of social media ever is white, straight and male. It does matter when you belong to a group that isn't white, straight and male. The OP isn't asking for much - all she's asking for some fair treatment of female protagonists. ME3's box art was a brilliant idea, but it's not really good enough when official websites default to only the male image (also, and I don't know how things are in other parts of the world, but where I'm from they only sold ME3-games with Sheploo's version visible). It  does seem like she's the deemed less important option of the two.

What the OP isn't asking is that they remove all the men from all the covers, ever. If anyone's making a fuss or taking things too seriously here, it certainly isn't her.

Modifié par NorwegianPirate, 03 juin 2013 - 01:44 .

[Trikormadenadon]

katiebour wrote...

The Sin wrote...

@katiebur.

So what if Femshep is in the back of the book cover ? Does the drawing of a fictitious person and their positions in a book have any relation to women discrimination ? Do you see men going around parroting the fact that because Male Shepard is on the front of the box cover and in front of the books, men are somehow superior than women  ? 

I can understand the notion of having both genders in box covers but the reasoning is just absurd. Femshep is at the back so women are oppressed. Femshep is not the default box cover so she is oppressed..

I will say it again:- We live in a society where it is politically incorrect to be men

I have never used the word oppressed in any of my posts.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Yes, fem!Shep only being in the back of a book matters, because she should be just as important as man!Shep.  If he's in the front of the book, she should be too.

They should be equal, right?  Because that's the idea, that you can play as either a man or a woman and have an equal experience, right?

Anyway, I didn't spend a ton of time poring over the book- I just took a peek, looked in vain for fem!Shep, and when I found her in the very back, it bothered me.  I would have liked to have seen more of her through the book, to illustrate that she, too, is a hero.

Imagine that you have a daughter, and you love her very much.  You play video games with her.  You look through an art book together, or you look at the rows and rows of games in stores with man!heroes on the cover.

Your daughter asks you, "Daddy, where are the girl heroes?"

Do you tell her a kitchen joke?  Do you tell her that only boys are heroes?  Do you flip through the art book, looking for pictures, coming up with nothing until you get to the very last page?  Do you buy her a Barbie game where everything is pink and where, instead of saving the world, her options are to play dress-up?

I want to see advertising that reinforces that BOTH men AND women can be the hero.  If we have flippable box art, I want to see half of the boxes flipped so that fem!protag is showing in stores.  I want to be able to go to the game's website and see fem!protag proudly displayed.  I want to see a game trailer where fem!protag is being awesome and kicking ass.  I want to see girl heroes too.

And right now I don't, as I've illustrated with all of my various links and screenshots.  I'd like that to change, and that is my purpose in creating this thread.

I agreed with you whole heartedly until I read the part where you said you felt like BW was telling you only men can save the galaxy because it only shows male shep on me1 and me2 covers. That kind of BS exctreme feminist sexism is where I draw the line.

I absolutely agree that both male and female protagonists are equals and should be represented that way and have both or neither of them on the cover.

EDIT: And on the website.

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 03 juin 2013 - 01:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

myrrhcat wrote...
What I said was, I think you should walk off a cliff if you have a problem with putting a female protagonist on the cover. Because that's sexist. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it. If you are faced with the idea of having a female protag on the box and say "No, that is Bad," you're sexist.

I don't have a problem with a female protagonist on the box.
I have a problem with everything else.
How you said it. How you demand it. How you rationalize it. The whole overblown thetrical flair thrown about it.

I do still buy and play games with only men on the cover. I PUT UP WITH IT. But it's boring and stale.

You "put up" with men on the cover. Geez...it's almost like seeing a men irritates you.
And you wonder why some here labeled you as man-hating?
Don't want to sound harsh here, but you left yourself wide open there.
I guess if someone really wants to insult you, they will find a way to do it, regardless if you give them something to latch on or not, but it's not helping to give them ammo.

If you started a campaign to show more men using perfume, I'd support you. So support me in this.

I'd never do that because the premise of "equality" has been completely lost here. Evident in the statement that there MUST be 50/50 breakdown in male and female covers.
Equality in rights doesn't extend to that. Covers have absolutely NOTHING to do with it, because it's not a right.

When you want to force millions of individuals and artists to adhere to some mathematical devision under the false pretenses of equality, you are going way overboard.

Things should be encouraged, not demanded.
Supported by reason, not threats.

[Plaintiff]

Trikormadenadon wrote...
It doesn't matter if they are a terrible operson or not, they still have the right to voice their opinion.

When do gay people get to vote on straight marriage?

[Harle Cerulean]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

katiebour wrote...

The Sin wrote...

@katiebur.

So what if Femshep is in the back of the book cover ? Does the drawing of a fictitious person and their positions in a book have any relation to women discrimination ? Do you see men going around parroting the fact that because Male Shepard is on the front of the box cover and in front of the books, men are somehow superior than women  ? 

I can understand the notion of having both genders in box covers but the reasoning is just absurd. Femshep is at the back so women are oppressed. Femshep is not the default box cover so she is oppressed..

I will say it again:- We live in a society where it is politically incorrect to be men

I have never used the word oppressed in any of my posts.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Yes, fem!Shep only being in the back of a book matters, because she should be just as important as man!Shep.  If he's in the front of the book, she should be too.

They should be equal, right?  Because that's the idea, that you can play as either a man or a woman and have an equal experience, right?

Anyway, I didn't spend a ton of time poring over the book- I just took a peek, looked in vain for fem!Shep, and when I found her in the very back, it bothered me.  I would have liked to have seen more of her through the book, to illustrate that she, too, is a hero.

Imagine that you have a daughter, and you love her very much.  You play video games with her.  You look through an art book together, or you look at the rows and rows of games in stores with man!heroes on the cover.

Your daughter asks you, "Daddy, where are the girl heroes?"

Do you tell her a kitchen joke?  Do you tell her that only boys are heroes?  Do you flip through the art book, looking for pictures, coming up with nothing until you get to the very last page?  Do you buy her a Barbie game where everything is pink and where, instead of saving the world, her options are to play dress-up?

I want to see advertising that reinforces that BOTH men AND women can be the hero.  If we have flippable box art, I want to see half of the boxes flipped so that fem!protag is showing in stores.  I want to be able to go to the game's website and see fem!protag proudly displayed.  I want to see a game trailer where fem!protag is being awesome and kicking ass.  I want to see girl heroes too.

And right now I don't, as I've illustrated with all of my various links and screenshots.  I'd like that to change, and that is my purpose in creating this thread.

I agreed with you whole heartedly until I read the part where you said you felt like BW was telling you only men can save the galaxy because it only shows male shep on me1 and me2 covers. That kind of BS exctreme feminist sexism is where I draw the line.

I absolutely agree that both male and female protagonists are equals and should be represented that way and have both or neither of them on the cover.

EDIT: And on the website.

I'm sorry, but how the **** is it sexist to suggest that only showing male heroes implies that only men can be heroes? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

katiebour wrote...

The Sin wrote...

@katiebur.

So what if Femshep is in the back of the book cover ? Does the drawing of a fictitious person and their positions in a book have any relation to women discrimination ? Do you see men going around parroting the fact that because Male Shepard is on the front of the box cover and in front of the books, men are somehow superior than women  ? 

I can understand the notion of having both genders in box covers but the reasoning is just absurd. Femshep is at the back so women are oppressed. Femshep is not the default box cover so she is oppressed..

I will say it again:- We live in a society where it is politically incorrect to be men

I have never used the word oppressed in any of my posts.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Yes, fem!Shep only being in the back of a book matters, because she should be just as important as man!Shep.  If he's in the front of the book, she should be too.

They should be equal, right?  Because that's the idea, that you can play as either a man or a woman and have an equal experience, right?

Anyway, I didn't spend a ton of time poring over the book- I just took a peek, looked in vain for fem!Shep, and when I found her in the very back, it bothered me.  I would have liked to have seen more of her through the book, to illustrate that she, too, is a hero.

Imagine that you have a daughter, and you love her very much.  You play video games with her.  You look through an art book together, or you look at the rows and rows of games in stores with man!heroes on the cover.

Your daughter asks you, "Daddy, where are the girl heroes?"

Do you tell her a kitchen joke?  Do you tell her that only boys are heroes?  Do you flip through the art book, looking for pictures, coming up with nothing until you get to the very last page?  Do you buy her a Barbie game where everything is pink and where, instead of saving the world, her options are to play dress-up?

I want to see advertising that reinforces that BOTH men AND women can be the hero.  If we have flippable box art, I want to see half of the boxes flipped so that fem!protag is showing in stores.  I want to be able to go to the game's website and see fem!protag proudly displayed.  I want to see a game trailer where fem!protag is being awesome and kicking ass.  I want to see girl heroes too.

And right now I don't, as I've illustrated with all of my various links and screenshots.  I'd like that to change, and that is my purpose in creating this thread.

I have no intention of marrying or having children. That said if a women asks me about women heroes I would point them to Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Hawkgirl, Black Widow, Zatanna, Rogue, Elektra, Wasp...the list is endless.....

Modifié par The Sin, 03 juin 2013 - 01:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

MoosenLoosen wrote...
Apart from your idiotic misconception that every country in the world has the right to freedom of speech, you also misinterpret it. Freedom of speech means that the government aren't allowed to tell you to stop talking. That doesn't apply to citizens. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No misconceptions here - you'd be wise not to construct reasoning and things I enver said in your head.

Aslo, Freedom of Speech is a breader concept that extends beyond state regulations (and applies to everyone).

If a person wants to prevent another for speaking (regrdless if he is in government or not), he is in essence against the freedom of speech.

[Trikormadenadon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...
It doesn't matter if they are a terrible operson or not, they still have the right to voice their opinion.

When do gay people get to vote on straight marriage?

If there was ever a vote regarding straight marriage, gay people should be allowed to voice their opinion too, but this is not relevant to the topic I was discussing and this post seems to be made with the express purpose of starting a different debate so I am done with it.

[MoosenLoosen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...
What I said was, I think you should walk off a cliff if you have a problem with putting a female protagonist on the cover. Because that's sexist. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it. If you are faced with the idea of having a female protag on the box and say "No, that is Bad," you're sexist.

I don't have a problem with a female protagonist on the box.
I have a problem with everything else.
How you said it. How you demand it. How you rationalize it. The whole overblown thetrical flair thrown about it.

I do still buy and play games with only men on the cover. I PUT UP WITH IT. But it's boring and stale.

You "put up" with men on the cover. Geez...it's almost like seeing a men irritates you.
And you wonder why some here labeled you as man-hating?
Don't want to sound harsh here, but you left yourself wide open there.
I guess if someone really wants to insult you, they will find a way to do it, regardless if you give them something to latch on or not, but it's not helping to give them ammo.

If you started a campaign to show more men using perfume, I'd support you. So support me in this.

I'd never do that because the premise of "equality" has been completely lost here. Evident in the statement that there MUST be 50/50 breakdown in male and female covers.
Equality in rights doesn't extend to that. Covers have absolutely NOTHING to do with it, because it's not a right.

When you want to force millions of individuals and artists to adhere to some mathematical devision under the false pretenses of equality, you are going way overboard.

Things should be encouraged, not demanded.
Supported by reason, not threats.

We aren't asking about rights, we're asking that we be included.

Gaming communities are hostile environments for women. We are used to being told to shut up and make a sandwich. That might not seem significant to you, but it is to us. It may be very easy for you to tell someone to be reasonable when you aren't the one who is constantly being told that their entire gender hasn't done anything to deserve representation.

Modifié par MoosenLoosen, 03 juin 2013 - 01:21 .

[myrrhcat]

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

[MoosenLoosen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...
Apart from your idiotic misconception that every country in the world has the right to freedom of speech, you also misinterpret it. Freedom of speech means that the government aren't allowed to tell you to stop talking. That doesn't apply to citizens. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No misconceptions here - you'd be wise not to construct reasoning and things I enver said in your head.

Aslo, Freedom of Speech is a breader concept that extends beyond state regulations (and applies to everyone).

If a person wants to prevent another for speaking (regrdless if he is in government or not), he is in essence against the freedom of speech.

You sound like you're from America.
What you just said really, really isn't the case.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...
Apart from your idiotic misconception that every country in the world has the right to freedom of speech, you also misinterpret it. Freedom of speech means that the government aren't allowed to tell you to stop talking. That doesn't apply to citizens. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No misconceptions here - you'd be wise not to construct reasoning and things I enver said in your head.

Aslo, Freedom of Speech is a breader concept that extends beyond state regulations (and applies to everyone).

If a person wants to prevent another for speaking (regrdless if he is in government or not), he is in essence against the freedom of speech.

You do realize there are other countries besides America, right?

[myrrhcat]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...
It doesn't matter if they are a terrible operson or not, they still have the right to voice their opinion.

When do gay people get to vote on straight marriage?

If there was ever a vote regarding straight marriage, gay people should be allowed to voice their opinion too, but this is not relevant to the topic I was discussing and this post seems to be made with the express purpose of starting a different debate so I am done with it.

Actually, it is relevant. Why hasn't there been a vote on whether straight people should be allowed to get married?

Because in our society, it's seen as the default.

Just like how male characters are seen as the default, and so there's never been a vote on whether male characters should be represented on box art.

You've never had to fight for your gender to be represented before, so of course you don't understand. But it's not okay for maleness to be the default. There should be no default gender. There should be equal representation across the board.

[katiebour]

Trikormadenadon wrote...
Yes, you are equal, but when the OP says she thinks BW is trying to tell he rthat only males can save the galaxy just because its a male protagonist on the cover of Me1 and 2 it goes beyond equality into the realm of discrimination. 

I agree with equality, I disgaree with extreme feminist sexism.

EDIT: Spelling.

Hi, OP here.  Maybe you missed one of my posts, so let me reiterate.  When I first played Mass Effect, I played as Sheploo, the male default character.  Why?  Because I have been playing video games that only allow you to play as a man for so long that I didn't even realize you could play as a woman, and because it was a new game franchise, and because Sheploo was the guy on the cover.

He was the "hero."

So I played as him and romanced Liara, and had a pretty good time.

Then I played DA:O, and had no expectations from box cover art as to who the "hero" was.  I started up a game and the first thing that I saw was the gender selection option, and suddenly, I realized, "Oh, my god, I can play this game as a woman.  A woman can be the hero."  So I played as a woman, and it was AMAZING.  I've played both f! and m!Wardens, both f! and m!Hawkes, but my first playthough is always as a woman, because that is the experience that most closely mirrors my own identity.  And to play as a woman who can save the world is immensely empowering.

My gender can be heroes too.

So much of our art and media fails to recognize this fact.  Most heroes in games are male.  Most heroes in movies are male.  Most heroes in TV shows are male.

When I replayed Mass Effect just this year, I made my own f!Shep.  And my experience with the game was much, much better, because it felt like it more closely aligned with my own identity.  It not only aligned with my identity, it celebrated my identity.  I could play Commander Shepard, military hero, and my subordinates aboard the Normandy would salute and call me "ma'am."  And then there's this:



The fate of the galaxy depends on her.

You probably don't have any idea how hard that line hit me.  That last word.

Her.

We hear kitchen jokes every day.  We are told and told and told again what a woman's "place" is.  Women in the military are rare, and we hear about them facing discrimination and being brutalized all the time.  America has yet to have a woman as either president or vice president.

There gets to be a point where you start to shut down.  Women just can't have responsibility, or power.  It just isn't done.  We're not capable.

Get back in the kitchen.  Take care of the children.

And then Mass Effect gives us this:

The fate of the galaxy depends on her.

Women can be heroes too.

When I see Sheploo on the box, I see a man-hero.  And it reinforces the idea that this story is about a man-hero.

It is rare, and precious, to see a woman as a hero.  That is what I want.  Not the only hero.  She doesn't have to replace the man.

But she can stand beside him, proud, powerful, capable.  And her presence in the front of the art book, on the webpage, in the advertising, on the box cover sends the message:

Women can be heroes too.

[Plaintiff]

scyphozoa wrote...

Now we're doing the freedom of speech discussion? Quick, someone post a comparison between software piracy and a used car, so I can hit Forum Bull**** BINGO!

How about; "You're not 'stealing' anything when you pirate software, you're just making a copy". That's the argument I hear most often.

[Trikormadenadon]

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

[Plaintiff]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...
Apart from your idiotic misconception that every country in the world has the right to freedom of speech, you also misinterpret it. Freedom of speech means that the government aren't allowed to tell you to stop talking. That doesn't apply to citizens. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No misconceptions here - you'd be wise not to construct reasoning and things I enver said in your head.

Aslo, Freedom of Speech is a breader concept that extends beyond state regulations (and applies to everyone).

If a person wants to prevent another for speaking (regrdless if he is in government or not), he is in essence against the freedom of speech.

You do realize there are other countries besides America, right?

Good God, don't tell him that. He might decide to visit.