700 réponses à ce sujet

[WildOrchid]

Also i'd like to say that trailers should have BOTH protags too. Having the dudeshep in all trailers and the female nowhere to be seen was frustrating as hell.
Bioware, please STOP IT.

When I saw ME for the first time I said: "Oh, it's a game that has the dudebro again. Not gonna get it". And then I learned from friends that you have gender options.
Would've been MUCH better if the cover and the trailers had both of them so people would know that it has options, especially those who are new to bioware games.
Or not show the protags and show the characters that exist in the game.

[KiwiQuiche]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

This coming from someone who basically said that wanting a woman on a cover was oppressive and was stupidity at its finest. Forgive me if I take your words with a grain of salt.

And yeah, only threads go mad if Godwin's Law is invoked. Hoorah.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 03 juin 2013 - 01:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Trikormadenadon wrote...
As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Replacing some male protagonists is the only way to get equal representation. Developers can only produce so many games in a year, you know. Every game with a female protagonist means one less game with a male protagonist.

Not that that would be such a big deal. 

[myrrhcat]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

[Trikormadenadon]

katiebour wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...
Yes, you are equal, but when the OP says she thinks BW is trying to tell he rthat only males can save the galaxy just because its a male protagonist on the cover of Me1 and 2 it goes beyond equality into the realm of discrimination. 

I agree with equality, I disgaree with extreme feminist sexism.

EDIT: Spelling.

Hi, OP here.  Maybe you missed one of my posts, so let me reiterate.  When I first played Mass Effect, I played as Sheploo, the male default character.  Why?  Because I have been playing video games that only allow you to play as a man for so long that I didn't even realize you could play as a woman, and because it was a new game franchise, and because Sheploo was the guy on the cover.

He was the "hero."

So I played as him and romanced Liara, and had a pretty good time.

Then I played DA:O, and had no expectations from box cover art as to who the "hero" was.  I started up a game and the first thing that I saw was the gender selection option, and suddenly, I realized, "Oh, my god, I can play this game as a woman.  A woman can be the hero."  So I played as a woman, and it was AMAZING.  I've played both f! and m!Wardens, both f! and m!Hawkes, but my first playthough is always as a woman, because that is the experience that most closely mirrors my own identity.  And to play as a woman who can save the world is immensely empowering.

My gender can be heroes too.

So much of our art and media fails to recognize this fact.  Most heroes in games are male.  Most heroes in movies are male.  Most heroes in TV shows are male.

When I replayed Mass Effect just this year, I made my own f!Shep.  And my experience with the game was much, much better, because it felt like it more closely aligned with my own identity.  It not only aligned with my identity, it celebrated my identity.  I could play Commander Shepard, military hero, and my subordinates aboard the Normandy would salute and call me "ma'am."  And then there's this:



The fate of the galaxy depends on her.

You probably don't have any idea how hard that line hit me.  That last word.

Her.

We hear kitchen jokes every day.  We are told and told and told again what a woman's "place" is.  Women in the military are rare, and we hear about them facing discrimination and being brutalized all the time.  America has yet to have a woman as either president or vice president.

There gets to be a point where you start to shut down.  Women just can't have responsibility, or power.  It just isn't done.  We're not capable.

Get back in the kitchen.  Take care of the children.

And then Mass Effect gives us this:

The fate of the galaxy depends on her.

Women can be heroes too.

When I see Sheploo on the box, I see a man-hero.  And it reinforces the idea that this story is about a man-hero.

It is rare, and precious, to see a woman as a hero.  That is what I want.  Not the only hero.  She doesn't have to replace the man.

But she can stand beside him, proud, powerful, capable.  And her presence in the front of the art book, on the webpage, in the advertising, on the box cover sends the message:

Women can be heroes too.

I agree. 100%

I would like to point out however that the missing that you could not alter your character to make it female seems to me like you just werent paying attention during character creation, or you just assumed you would not be able to be female due to your past experience...and you know what they say about assume....

[Knight of Dane]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

 Maybe it's just me but I actually prefer cover art that doesn't have anybody on it at all.

Thank you Snookie! I absolutely agree. 

No more large hairy chins or round boobies on my cover!

[Trikormadenadon]

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

As I have already stated, I agree with you about WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it that irks me.
If you are not willing to hear other people's opinions, then you should not be voicing your either...

EDIT: Spelling

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 03 juin 2013 - 01:40 .

[Trikormadenadon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...
As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Replacing some male protagonists is the only way to get equal representation. Developers can only produce so many games in a year, you know. Every game with a female protagonist means one less game with a male protagonist.

Not that that would be such a big deal. 

Yeah that's not really what I meant. I meant in the context of Bioware games where you can play either sex.
And we are talking about cover art, not game content.

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 03 juin 2013 - 01:43 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Plaintiff wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

Now we're doing the freedom of speech discussion? Quick, someone post a comparison between software piracy and a used car, so I can hit Forum Bull**** BINGO!

How about; "You're not 'stealing' anything when you pirate software, you're just making a copy". That's the argument I hear most often.

Ooh, ooh, or there's the "It's just like getting a book from the library!" one.

[Kalas Magnus]

Sure, why not?

I only buy a game after I see both positive critic and player reviews. The box art doesn't influence my decision in any way.
I'd care even less with this game. Seeing as how it is the third game and I'm going to buy it no matter what.

[MoosenLoosen]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

As I have already stated, I agree with you about WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it that irks me.
If you are not willing to hear other people's opinions, then you should not be voicing your either...

EDIT: Spelling

So... what? You're refusing to listen to what they have to say because they're angry, because they actually happen to be affected by it?
Jesus wept.

[Trikormadenadon]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

As I have already stated, I agree with you about WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it that irks me.
If you are not willing to hear other people's opinions, then you should not be voicing your either...

EDIT: Spelling

So... what? You're refusing to listen to what they have to say because they're angry, because they actually happen to be affected by it?
Jesus wept.

If you have been reading along the whole thread you would know that is not true in my case.

[MoosenLoosen]

The Wolf Man wrote...

They should go one step further and put a black  woman on the box.

I agree.

[Ianamus]

I have high hopes for Dragon Age inquisition in this regard (gender equal marketing). While I feel Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were very good when it came to gender I did notice that the marketing still focused on 1. The male hero and 2. The main female LI- who also happened to be the least dressed. Obviously Morrigan and Isabela were far from being one dimensional T&A in the games, but from a marketing stand point that was what it appeared. 

With Dragon Age Inquisition we have every reason to believe that the leading female companion will be Cassandra, a powerful warrior dressed in full armour. LI or not I sincerely hope that the marketing does indeed focus on her over the presumed more stereotypically feminime and less armoured LI. 

I would love to see the female protagonist on the cover, but I don't think it would happen. I think the best compromise is to simply not have the protagonist on the cover at all. I personally don't like the "one side male- one side female" cover idea because it would always default to male, which is doing absolutely nothing to fix the blantantly sexist issue here. 

Modifié par EJ107, 03 juin 2013 - 01:52 .

[katiebour]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

I agree. 100%

I would like to point out however that the missing that you could not alter your character to make it female seems to me like you just werent paying attention during character creation, or you just assumed you would not be able to be female due to your past experience...and you know what they say about assume....

Yep, I chose to play as Sheploo, because he was the character on the box.  He was the hero according to the marketing.  Why should I play as a woman when a woman wasn't the hero?

I hadn't played Dragon Age; I hadn't realized that playing a female character would be just as awesome as playing a male character.  I hadn't realized that the story could be about John Shepard, or Jane Shepard, or my unique Shepard.

My first playthrough I stuck with the default experience.  I went back and took a screenshot of ME1's character creation screen to illustrate:



So you can be John Shepard, or you can make your own character.  But this was the guy I'd seen on the box.  He was the hero.  Why wouldn't I play him?  There's no indication on the box or here, on the character creation entry screen, that I could actually play as a woman.  I never did the "Enter New ID" option, I just picked the male default.

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 02:01 .

[Fetunche]

I prefer not to see any kind of default hero/ heroine on the box, the hero of the game is the one I create.

[NorwegianPirate]

The Wolf Man wrote...

They should go one step further and put a black  woman on the box.

Yep. It's a shame Shepard nr. 4 didn't win out it in the whole fem!Shep beauty contest deal, or we could have had at least one.

Modifié par NorwegianPirate, 03 juin 2013 - 01:56 .

[MoosenLoosen]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

As I have already stated, I agree with you about WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it that irks me.
If you are not willing to hear other people's opinions, then you should not be voicing your either...

EDIT: Spelling

So... what? You're refusing to listen to what they have to say because they're angry, because they actually happen to be affected by it?
Jesus wept.

If you have been reading along the whole thread you would know that is not true in my case.

Sorry for not being clear. Should have said "you were" rather than "you're". I was referring to people asking us to be calm and nice as a group, not you personally. I'm happy that we're actually getting somewhere now but there's been a few people in the thread demanding we be very pleasant and impersonal when we talk about how we feel when that consistently has not worked for us.

[Harle Cerulean]

The Wolf Man wrote...

They should go one step further and put a black  woman on the box.

I'd be all for that!

[Ianamus]

The Wolf Man wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

The Wolf Man wrote...

They should go one step further and put a black  woman on the box.

I agree.

 

The black female population is completely excluded from video games. Absolutely NOTHING is marketed toward them, not even a little.

How many non-white men do we get on the covers of games, let alone women? 

[Trikormadenadon]

EJ107 wrote...

I have high hopes for Dragon Age inquisition in this regard (gender equal marketing). While I feel Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were very good when it came to gender I did notice that the marketing still focused on 1. The male hero and 2. The main female LI- who also happened to be the least dressed. Obviously Morrigan and Isabela were far from being one dimensional T&A in the games, but from a marketing stand point that was what it appeared. 

With Dragon Age Inquisition we have every reason to believe that the leading female companion will be Cassandra, a powerful warrior dressed in full armour. LI or not I sincerely hope that the marketing does indeed focus on her over the presumed more stereotypically feminime and less armoured LI. 

I would love to see the female protagonist on the cover, but I don't think it would happen. I think the best compromise is to simply not have the protagonist on the cover at all. I personally don't like the "one side male- one side female" cover idea because it would always default to male, which is doing absolutely nothing to fix the blantantly sexist issue here. 

Having neither on the cover may be the best idea, but i don't understand why you think having both would default to male. I see having both on the cover as a valid comprimise. 

[katiebour]

The Wolf Man wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

The Wolf Man wrote...

They should go one step further and put a black  woman on the box.

I agree.

 

The black female population is completely excluded from video games. Absolutely NOTHING is marketed toward them, not even a little.

I agree.  A woman of color as the default hero would be amazing. 

[WildOrchid]

katiebour wrote...
I agree.  A woman of color as the default hero would be amazing. 

+1