700 réponses à ce sujet

[I Like Cats And]

Ch...check.....your privilege....

[Trikormadenadon]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

myrrhcat wrote...

I don't hate (most) men but seeing the responses from the men in this thread, I'd be perfectly justified if I did. I mean, dang. Never have I seen so many people completely unwilling to engage with what I'm saying, and instead talking on and on about how I'm not being nice so that completely invalidates my point (it doesn't) and talking like 50/50 representation is the most unreasonable goal ever.

Women are 50% of the world's population. It makes sense to have 50/50 representation (or include representation for all genders, including people neither male nor female, but if you can't even swallow the idea of one female hero on one cover of one game, how the hell are you going to accept that?) But I'm not even asking for 50/50 representation here. I just want to be on the cover of DA3. One game.

(And of course I mean a female character and not actually me myself, but I wouldn't mind being on the cover myself, too.)

True, being not nice does not invalidate your opinion, but when you are close minded enough to tell others to keep their opinions to themselves, then yeah, that invalidates your opinion.

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Actually, the only thing that would invalidate my opinion would be if I wasn't affected by this issue. But I am! Because I'm a woman! Wow.

I would like 50% of all video game covers to have a man on the cover, and 50% to have a woman. Now, most of the games that are already out have only a man on the cover, so I'd say... for the next five years at least, every single game that comes out should have only a woman. That way we can get the number to even out.

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek, of course. I know that wouldn't happen. But it'd be nice.) But the point is, if EVERY SINGLE GAME OUT THERE had only women on the cover, then you could complain about inequality. But it's ludicrous to complain about the theoretical idea of one game not having your gender on the cover. Like, welcome to my world, dude.

As I have already stated, I agree with you about WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it that irks me.
If you are not willing to hear other people's opinions, then you should not be voicing your either...

EDIT: Spelling

So... what? You're refusing to listen to what they have to say because they're angry, because they actually happen to be affected by it?
Jesus wept.

If you have been reading along the whole thread you would know that is not true in my case.

Sorry for not being clear. Should have said "you were" rather than "you're". I was referring to people asking us to be calm and nice as a group, not you personally. I'm happy that we're actually getting somewhere now but there's been a few people in the thread demanding we be very pleasant and impersonal when we talk about how we feel when that consistently has not worked for us.

I don't frequent the forum that often so I was not aware of that kind of general response and am truely sorry you feel you need to get angry to get your point across. Thank you for removing me from your statement.

[LoonySpectre]

A woman of color as the default hero would be amazing

*cough* Isabela? *cough*

[Harle Cerulean]

katiebour wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

I agree. 100%

I would like to point out however that the missing that you could not alter your character to make it female seems to me like you just werent paying attention during character creation, or you just assumed you would not be able to be female due to your past experience...and you know what they say about assume....

Yep, I chose to play as Sheploo, because he was the character on the box.  He was the hero according to the marketing.  Why should I play as a woman when a woman wasn't the hero?

I hadn't played Dragon Age; I hadn't realized that playing a female character would be just as awesome as playing a male character.  I hadn't realized that the story could be about John Shepard, or Jane Shepard, or my unique Shepard.

My first playthrough I stuck with the default experience.  I went back and took a screenshot of ME1's character creation screen to illustrate:



So you can be John Shepard, or you can make your own character.  But this was the guy I'd seen on the box.  He was the hero.  Why wouldn't I play him?  I never did the "Enter New ID" option, I just picked the male default.

And this kind of thing, for those who like to tout the numbers difference between those who played m!Shep and those who played f!Shep in ME3, partially accounts for that difference.  A lot of people don't choose to play as something other than the default.  This is also why the default class was the most commonly played.  It's why male human warrior was most commonly played in DA:O - it's what the character creator screen starts you at, and a lot of people don't bother with customizing.

Which isn't to say that they might not if they knew they had the options, but what, exactly, about that screenshot says "By the way, you can also play as female, change your looks, and play a different class"?

Nothing.  'Enter new ID' sounds more like "Rename this character" than "Make your own."

[NorwegianPirate]

LoonySpectre wrote...

A woman of color as the default hero would be amazing

*cough* Isabela? *cough*

She's an NPC, not the default main character.

[katiebour]

LoonySpectre wrote...

A woman of color as the default hero would be amazing

*cough* Isabela? *cough*

Isabela is not the hero.  She is a companion and potential LI, and the default LI from the marketing and trailers.

Modifié par katiebour, 03 juin 2013 - 02:03 .

[p1013]

As a female gamer, I'd really like to see more representation of woman protagonists in games in GENERAL, not just on box art. I don't think putting a woman on the cover is going to hurt sales of a highly anticipated game, and I'd like to know that I'm being recognized by the industry. Woman make up half of the video game market now, we're out here, and we just want to be represented actively, instead of being relegated to the back cover or as a 3/4 shot behind the male protagonist.

[MoosenLoosen]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

I don't frequent the forum that often so I was not aware of that kind of general response and am truely sorry you feel you need to get angry to get your point across. Thank you for removing me from your statement.

... and I am "truely" sorry you lack the empathy to reason to yourself that someone might, god forbid, be emotionally affected by something like this. Must be such a privilege to sit up there on your pedestal being content with the world all day long.

Modifié par MoosenLoosen, 03 juin 2013 - 02:07 .

[Trikormadenadon]

katiebour wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

I agree. 100%

I would like to point out however that the missing that you could not alter your character to make it female seems to me like you just werent paying attention during character creation, or you just assumed you would not be able to be female due to your past experience...and you know what they say about assume....

Yep, I chose to play as Sheploo, because he was the character on the box.  He was the hero according to the marketing.  Why should I play as a woman when a woman wasn't the hero?

I hadn't played Dragon Age; I hadn't realized that playing a female character would be just as awesome as playing a male character.  I hadn't realized that the story could be about John Shepard, or Jane Shepard, or my unique Shepard.

My first playthrough I stuck with the default experience.  I went back and took a screenshot of ME1's character creation screen to illustrate:



So you can be John Shepard, or you can make your own character.  But this was the guy I'd seen on the box.  He was the hero.  Why wouldn't I play him?  There's no indication on the box or here, on the character creation entry screen, that I could actually play as a woman.  I never did the "Enter New ID" option, I just picked the male default.

Yeah see I always knew you could play female due to the new ID option. However, I have a very long history of playing rpg's and bioware games so maybe it just seems a little odd to miss the option because it just seems natural for it to be there to me. Glad you enjoyed the game. Sorry you could not enjoy it to the max by being female the first time, but good to know you were able to find new enjoyment by playing a second time as female. 

Personally I always play both male and female in all BW games to experience the different factors of the games. but maybe I am strange...LOL

[Minttymint]

I guess it'd be nice but I really couldn't care less either way. Whats on the box doesn't effect me enjoying the game...

[I Like Cats And]

p1013 wrote...

As a female gamer, I'd really like to see more representation of woman protagonists in games in GENERAL, not just on box art. I don't think putting a woman on the cover is going to hurt sales of a highly anticipated game, and I'd like to know that I'm being recognized by the industry. Woman make up half of the video game market now, we're out here, and we just want to be represented actively, instead of being relegated to the back cover or as a 3/4 shot behind the male protagonist.

Females definitely dont make up half of all gamers, it might be closer if you include casual games and stuff like iphone games.

[bleetman]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Which would be at all a relevant point if there was anything remotely close to equal representation.

Or if the exact opposite hadn't repeatedly been occuring for as long as I can remember, with central female characters and protaganists either being forcibly moved to the back cover, pressure put on the developers not to feature them or just being completely absent in the first place to make room for grizzled gunbros. And hell, those're just the examples I could be bothered to drum up.

You want to defend "equal representation"? How about we achieve it first.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 juin 2013 - 02:18 .

[Ianamus]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I have high hopes for Dragon Age inquisition in this regard (gender equal marketing). While I feel Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were very good when it came to gender I did notice that the marketing still focused on 1. The male hero and 2. The main female LI- who also happened to be the least dressed. Obviously Morrigan and Isabela were far from being one dimensional T&A in the games, but from a marketing stand point that was what it appeared. 

With Dragon Age Inquisition we have every reason to believe that the leading female companion will be Cassandra, a powerful warrior dressed in full armour. LI or not I sincerely hope that the marketing does indeed focus on her over the presumed more stereotypically feminime and less armoured LI. 

I would love to see the female protagonist on the cover, but I don't think it would happen. I think the best compromise is to simply not have the protagonist on the cover at all. I personally don't like the "one side male- one side female" cover idea because it would always default to male, which is doing absolutely nothing to fix the blantantly sexist issue here. 

Having neither on the cover may be the best idea, but i don't understand why you think having both would default to male. I see having both on the cover as a valid comprimise. 

What I meant was that if the cover is reversible like Mass Effect 3's the game will almost certainly be shipped, advertised and put on shelves with the male side facing outwards and the female side facing inwards, waiting for someone to make the conscious flip for her to see the light of day. 

Modifié par EJ107, 03 juin 2013 - 02:14 .

[Trikormadenadon]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

I don't frequent the forum that often so I was not aware of that kind of general response and am truely sorry you feel you need to get angry to get your point across. Thank you for removing me from your statement.

... and I am "truely" sorry you lack the empathy to reason to yourself that someone might, god forbid, be emotionally affected by something like this. Must be such a privilege to sit up there on your pedestal being content with the world all day long.

Really? You take my response as a lack of empathy? I say I am dissapointed that you have to resort to getting angry because of your past experience on the forum and you think I lack empathy? Seriously? I'm not sure, but I think you are trolling me....

EDIT: Hmm...thinking about it for a bit I can see how you would take it as lack of empathy. When I said I was sorry, i meant I was disappointed that the forum responded to you that way, not that you were not able to control your emotions...

Modifié par Trikormadenadon, 03 juin 2013 - 02:26 .

[Trikormadenadon]

EJ107 wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I have high hopes for Dragon Age inquisition in this regard (gender equal marketing). While I feel Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were very good when it came to gender I did notice that the marketing still focused on 1. The male hero and 2. The main female LI- who also happened to be the least dressed. Obviously Morrigan and Isabela were far from being one dimensional T&A in the games, but from a marketing stand point that was what it appeared. 

With Dragon Age Inquisition we have every reason to believe that the leading female companion will be Cassandra, a powerful warrior dressed in full armour. LI or not I sincerely hope that the marketing does indeed focus on her over the presumed more stereotypically feminime and less armoured LI. 

I would love to see the female protagonist on the cover, but I don't think it would happen. I think the best compromise is to simply not have the protagonist on the cover at all. I personally don't like the "one side male- one side female" cover idea because it would always default to male, which is doing absolutely nothing to fix the blantantly sexist issue here. 

Having neither on the cover may be the best idea, but i don't understand why you think having both would default to male. I see having both on the cover as a valid comprimise. 

What I meant was that if the cover is reversible like Mass Effect 3's the game will almost certainly be shipped, advertised and put on shelves with the male side facing outwards and the female side facing inwards, waiting for someone to make the conscious flip for her to be see the light of day. 

That is possible, but they could put both on the same side...

[MoosenLoosen]

I Like Cats And wrote...

p1013 wrote...

As a female gamer, I'd really like to see more representation of woman protagonists in games in GENERAL, not just on box art. I don't think putting a woman on the cover is going to hurt sales of a highly anticipated game, and I'd like to know that I'm being recognized by the industry. Woman make up half of the video game market now, we're out here, and we just want to be represented actively, instead of being relegated to the back cover or as a 3/4 shot behind the male protagonist.

Females definitely dont make up half of all gamers, it might be closer if you include casual games and stuff like iphone games.

Actually, yes we do.

[Trikormadenadon]

bleetman wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

As for the equal representation thing, I agree. But equal means the same amount of representation, not replace male protagonist with female protagonist....

Which would be at all a relevant point if there was anything remotely close to equal representation.

Or if the exact opposite hadn't repeatedly been occuring for as long as I can remember, with central female characters and protaganists either being forcibly moved to the back cover or pressure put on the developers not to feature them or just%20being%20complete%20absent%20in%20the%20first%20place]http://playeressence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Mass-Effect-1-boxart.jpg]just being complete absent in the first place]just being complete absent in the first place[/url] to make room for grizzled gunbros.

You want to defend "equal representation"? How about we achieve it first.

Um, that's the point of the thread...to acheive equality. And as I said, I agree with it. What I don't agree with is the mentality that says, there was males on the cover for so long, now it's time for females...two wrongs don't make a right.

[bleetman]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

Females definitely dont make up half of all gamers, it might be closer if you include casual games and stuff like iphone games.

Actually, yes we do.

And even if you didn't, why should that matter?

I'm white, male and in my twenties. I'm more than a little tired of the industry acting like I'm the only one who matters.

DinoSteve wrote...

I know alot of woman and do you know what games the play? The types of games like farmville and while these games are considered games and those women are considered gamers they are not the demographic who would be buying AAA titles.

Oh, you know a lot of women. Does "a lot of women" translate into "every women who plays games in western society"? No?

Then stop acting as if your personal life experience is in any way relevant to anything.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 juin 2013 - 02:23 .

[I Like Cats And]

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

p1013 wrote...

As a female gamer, I'd really like to see more representation of woman protagonists in games in GENERAL, not just on box art. I don't think putting a woman on the cover is going to hurt sales of a highly anticipated game, and I'd like to know that I'm being recognized by the industry. Woman make up half of the video game market now, we're out here, and we just want to be represented actively, instead of being relegated to the back cover or as a 3/4 shot behind the male protagonist.

Females definitely dont make up half of all gamers, it might be closer if you include casual games and stuff like iphone games.

Actually, yes we do.

Casual games doe.....they don't really care about Mass Effect box covers.

[p1013]

DinoSteve wrote...

I know alot of woman and do you know what games the play? The types of games like farmville and while these games are considered games and those women are considered gamers they are not the demographic who would be buying AAA titles.

One of my favorite games is Call of Duty. I played through Army of Two
and Gears of War with my husband at my urging. I've played and beaten
all of the God of War games, as well as games like Mass Effect (my
Shepard started in 1 and finished in 3) and Dragon Age. Broad
assumptions that women play games like Farmville (a game I've never
played and have never felt the urge to play) diminishes my place in the
gaming community and falsly represents my interests. I know I'm not the only woman gamer who enjoys FPS games or "traditionally" masculine types of games.

DinoSteve wrote...
Look at Biowares own data on ME3 the amount of  people playing as Sheploo far out weighs the amount playing as femshep.


I'm not against women on the cover all I'm saying is its bad business.

And how much of that is due to 1) Sheploo being on the cover and 2) being the default choice when you start the game? You cannot assume that more people play Sheploo because they want to, when that data wasn't collected in Bioware's study of the demographics of the game. There are mitigating circumstances here that haven't been analzyed.

You know what they say about assuming things.

[I Like Cats And]

bleetman wrote...

MoosenLoosen wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

Females definitely dont make up half of all gamers, it might be closer if you include casual games and stuff like iphone games.

Actually, yes we do.

And even if you didn't, why should that matter?

I'm white, male and in my twenties. I'm more than a little tired of the industry acting like I'm the only one who matters.

Youre also like My Little Pony so you don't exactly speak for the normal 20 year old male. Video game boxes don't matter, if you want it a better world go actually support a real subject that matters. Gender equality (in the US) is more a manufactured issue, modern day feminism is more a mareketing tool. Go feed some starving kids, shut down puppy mills, protest for longer pedophile convictions.

[Trikormadenadon]

p1013 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I know alot of woman and do you know what games the play? The types of games like farmville and while these games are considered games and those women are considered gamers they are not the demographic who would be buying AAA titles.

One of my favorite games is Call of Duty. I played through Army of Two
and Gears of War with my husband at my urging. I've played and beaten
all of the God of War games, as well as games like Mass Effect (my
Shepard started in 1 and finished in 3) and Dragon Age. Broad
assumptions that women play games like Farmville (a game I've never
played and have never felt the urge to play) diminishes my place in the
gaming community and falsly represents my interests. I know I'm not the only woman gamer who enjoys FPS games or "traditionally" masculine types of games.

DinoSteve wrote...
Look at Biowares own data on ME3 the amount of  people playing as Sheploo far out weighs the amount playing as femshep.


I'm not against women on the cover all I'm saying is its bad business.

And how much of that is due to 1) Sheploo being on the cover and 2) being the default choice when you start the game? You cannot assume that more people play Sheploo because they want to, when that data wasn't collected in Bioware's study of the demographics of the game. There are mitigating circumstances here that haven't been analzyed.

You know what they say about assuming things.

Considering it only takes about 2 seconds to find the create new ID button I'd say not many played male shep by mistake...although apparently the OP did.

[bleetman]

I Like Cats And wrote...

Youre also like My Little Pony so you don't exactly speak for the normal 20 year old male. Video game boxes don't matter, if you want it a better world go actually support a real subject that matters. Gender equality (in the US) is more a manufactured issue, modern day feminism is more a mareketing tool. Go feed some starving kids, shut down puppy mills, protest for longer pedophile convictions.

Aww. Aren't you precious?

[Ianamus]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Considering it only takes about 2 seconds to find the create new ID button I'd say not many played male shep by mistake...although apparently the OP did.

The problem is that "create new ID" is so mind-numbingly vague it could mean absolutely anything, from "Rename this defualt male protagonist to bob" to "Create new user account". The majority of people might not even realise you have the ability to change the protagonists appearance, let alone their gender. 

Compare it to Dragon Age 2's:




If nothing else at least it forces the player to make a conscious decision from the very beginning about what gender they want to be- and shoves in the players face that the game supports protagonists of both gender.

Modifié par EJ107, 03 juin 2013 - 02:28 .