177 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.

How could it not have been?

Well, Corypheus addresses that the City was Black when he entered the City with his fellow Magisters, which calls into doubt the validity of any claims made by the Andrastian Chantry, so I don't see anything wrong with Ieldra2's speculation on the matter.

MisterJB wrote...

We know for a fact the Magisters broke into it which suggests it was visible since before Tevinter. Thus, it follows that, at that point, it appeared golden or Corypheus and his ilk wouldn't have believed it to be. Corypheus specifically mentions that the city was "supposed to be golden."

That Corypheus said it was "supposed to be" is an entirely different matter than how the City actually was. I'm sure some people thought the world was "supposed to be" flat, until it was proven otherwise.

MisterJB wrote...

If the City was golden or appeared to be until the Magisters actually entered it; and now everyone sees it as a dark city; it strongly suggests their invasion was the catalyst of some change, Maker-related or not. 

If the City was already Black when the Magisters got there, then it doesn't "strongly suggest" any such thing.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That Corypheus said it was "supposed to be" is an entirely different matter than how the City actually was. I'm sure some people thought the world was "supposed to be" flat, until it was proven otherwise.

Despite popular belief, no one actually ever thought the world was flat and that's a nonsensical comparison anyway given that the supposedly "flatness of the Earth" was not a visibly obervable phenomenon until proven otherwise.
Meanwhile, the City can be seen, at all times, from the Fade and in order for Corypheus to have, at any point, believed the City to be golden, its image in the Fade had to appear golden.
If the City appeared golden before the Magisters invaded it and has been appearing corrupted thereafter, it strongly suggests; if not outright proves; that their presence there was the catalyst of some change in the City even if it was only its exterior appearance.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.

How could it not have been?

Well, Corypheus addresses that the City was Black when he entered the City with his fellow Magisters, which calls into doubt the validity of any claims made by the Andrastian Chantry, so I don't see anything wrong with Ieldra2's speculation on the matter.

MisterJB wrote...

We know for a fact the Magisters broke into it which suggests it was visible since before Tevinter. Thus, it follows that, at that point, it appeared golden or Corypheus and his ilk wouldn't have believed it to be. Corypheus specifically mentions that the city was "supposed to be golden."

That Corypheus said it was "supposed to be" is an entirely different matter than how the City actually was. I'm sure some people thought the world was "supposed to be" flat, until it was proven otherwise.

MisterJB wrote...

If the City was golden or appeared to be until the Magisters actually entered it; and now everyone sees it as a dark city; it strongly suggests their invasion was the catalyst of some change, Maker-related or not. 

If the City was already Black when the Magisters got there, then it doesn't "strongly suggest" any such thing.

A mage Warden can see the GC from anywhere in the fade so it's assumed that every mage can do so too. Considering that the GC looks like a floating pile of trash why would Corypheus complain about being deceived when the location's appearance is a dead giveaway as it's not golden? 

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That Corypheus said it was "supposed to be" is an entirely different matter than how the City actually was. I'm sure some people thought the world was "supposed to be" flat, until it was proven otherwise. 

Despite popular belief, no one actually ever thought the world was flat and that's a nonsensical comparison anyway given that the supposedly "flatness of the Earth" was not a visibly obervable phenomenon until proven otherwise.

There are people who theorize to this day that the Earth is flat, and some of these people think it's flat because there were people who thought it was flat in the past, like Samuel Shenton and Samuel Rowbotham.

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, the City can be seen, at all times, from the Fade and in order for Corypheus to have, at any point, believed the City to be golden, its image in the Fade had to appear golden.

Except Corypheus mentions Dumat saying that the City was Golden.

MisterJB wrote...

If the City appeared golden before the Magisters invaded it and has been appearing corrupted thereafter, it strongly suggests; if not outright proves; that their presence there was the catalyst of some change in the City even if it was only its exterior appearance. 

If the City was already Black when they got there, then it calls into question the validity of claiming that the Magisters were the catalyst for the corruption of the so-called "Golden City" if it was already the Black City prior to their arrival.

[MisterJB]

I just replayed the scene and Corypheus never makes mention of Dumat claiming the city to be golden, only of him offering the power of the gods.
Which is in accordance with this three year old post of Mary Kirby.
http://social.biowar...2725992#2728150
Even if Dumat had told them, they would not have believed because they could clearly see it was not golden.

The City had been visible before the Magisters entered it; obviously; meaning that, in order for Corypheus to believe it to be golden, it had to have appeared golden at some point.
If it appeared golden before the Magisters entered it and black after they did so, it follows that their presence there changed the city in some manner.

The suggestions that it was already black before they entered; and that is all they are, suggestions, not facts; does not change the fact this logic is sound and must be faced if one wish to argue the Magisters didn't do anything.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juin 2013 - 11:57 .

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 Corypheus didn't mention that Dumat told them that the city was golden, he only states "The city! It was supposed to be Golden! It was supposed to be ours!"

[atum]

Yeah I think people take Corypheus wayyyy too literally. While his dialoge hinted at an already-black city, it doesn't outright say it or prove anything.

In the fade, in a world of magic, it's certainly possible that it looked black as they approached it because they were already corrupting it. It's also possible he was just mistaken or misrepresenting whatever happened. (if he even went there!).

But yes, if it's done EXTREMELY well, the Black City could be an awesome map / place.

I still think The Maker is a demon, and Andraste a mage, or Sandal is the Maker (probably the latter)






edit: does -> doesn't...  whoops

Modifié par atum, 04 juin 2013 - 12:17 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

A mage Warden can see the GC from anywhere in the fade so it's assumed that every mage can do so too. Considering that the GC looks like a floating pile of trash why would Corypheus complain about being deceived when the location's appearance is a dead giveaway as it's not golden?

Corypheus complains about the deception in Legacy. He talks about how they - the Magisters - sought the "golden light" but that it was black and corrupt instead. He talks about how the City was supposed to be "golden" and that it was supposed to be "ours", and how Dumat offered the power of the Gods themselves. He even asks Dumat why they were forsaken.

Regardless, I simply didn't think there was anything wrong with Ieldra2's speculation about the City when the truth is unknown to us.

[Trikormadenadon]

MisterJB wrote...

I just replayed the scene and Corypheus never makes mention of Dumat claiming the city to be golden, only of him offering the power of the gods.
Which is in accordance with this three year old post of Mary Kirby.
http://social.biowar...2725992#2728150
Even if Dumat had told them, they would not have believed because they could clearly see it was not golden.

The City had been visible before the Magisters entered it; obviously; meaning that, in order for Corypheus to believe it to be golden, it had to have appeared golden at some point.
If it appeared golden before the Magisters entered it and black after they did so, it follows that their presence there changed the city in some manner.

The suggestions that it was already black before they entered; and that is all they are, suggestions, not facts; does not change the fact this logic is sound and must be faced if one wish to argue the Magisters didn't do anything.

Or it could have been an illusion caused by the seal keeping everyone out and when the magisters broke the seal so they could get in, the illusion fell and revealed that the city was black all along.

[KiwiQuiche]

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind going to the Black City and killing the Maker if he really is around. I love games where you can eventually kill the 'verse Gods.

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.

You're wrong about that bit. DG confirmed that - at least by outward apperances - there was a golden city in the Fade at one point. 

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind going to the Black City and killing the Maker if he really is around. I love games where you can eventually kill the 'verse Gods.

[The Hierophant]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Or it could have been an illusion caused by the seal keeping everyone out and when the magisters broke the seal so they could get in, the illusion fell and revealed that the city was black all along.

This is similar to one of my alternate theories on the GC, but it speculates that the Old Gods collectively created an illusion.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 juin 2013 - 12:31 .

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind going to the Black City and killing the Maker if he really is around. I love games where you can eventually kill the 'verse Gods.

+10

[Ash Wind]

Hard to say, while interaction in very limited, I'd hardly find Corypheus to be a bastion of truth. If you screwed up heaven, you'd probably do what he did... deny deny deny. Or pehaps he's telling the truth, perhaps the Old Gods, led by Dumat rebelled against the Maker and their treachery blackened the Golden City. But I do think it was Golden Once... either way, I hope DA3 goes deeper into it. Its one of the more interesting aspects of the Lore.

[Jaronking]

maybe they will make a prequel and answer the question about was the black city actually golden or was it black all along

[Nyaore]

I want to know more, but at the same time I like the lack of clarity on the subject. It's like the Maker, I very much doubt we're ever going to learn if he exists or not within the confines of the DA universe. It's not like D&D where almost all the gods in those various settings are named, given clear histories, and even stat'd. Because of this it makes for a great topic of discussion, and frankly I always feel that a fantasy world should have some major mysteries to it to keep things interesting.

[Angrywolves]

bah. Of course we can't kill the Maker. It's ridiculous. The Maker isn't there anymore anyway. I do think we need to learn who/what corrupted it but we won't learn that in DAI . Maybe in the following game if there is one.

[Exile Isan]

I think the Black City was once golden, I'm not so sure I believe is that it was the mages that caused it to turn black.

[Kalas Magnus]

I want it as day-1 dlc.

[Nightdragon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.
I don't believe the Maker has anything to do with it.
I don't believe that the ancient Magisters caused any "corruption" there.

All that is propaganda by the Chantry, and I would really hate any indication that we're meant to take it literally.

Other than that, I would like to know more about it. An NPC I don't recall says that "there is a connection between the Black City and the darkspawn". I would like that to be a explored in a future DA story.

This, but I do think of them effectively opening Pandora's box is a definite possible

[rapscallioness]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Black City is supposed to be the one and only constant of the Fade.

Anyway going there seems like a terrible idea (from an in world perspective I mean), because the last time anyone  went there it went... very badly. It is literally a recipe of catastrophe.

This actually makes me wanna go even more! Oh, imagine from a gameplay perspective. The dramaz to be had. The discovery. The tension.

I would absolutely love to end up having to traverse to the Black City!

[Sanunes]

I would have several issues with going to the Golden/Black City, it has been portrayed (or how I take it) that it has only been visited once so the journey to it won't be easy and that would mean it being part of a game would make the importance of it being hollow. The other problem I would have is the amount of time in the Fade, it would take many hours and in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 the Fade sequences leave me with a major headache and will slow down my progress a great deal (it took me six to eight weeks to complete the Fade section in Dragon Age: Origins).