177 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

Tevinter seems to have alot of slaves. Anybody. Even other mages of you aren't powerful enough. I wonder how old Feynreil (sp?) is doing? I let him go, and wow, he's a Dreamer, which is big magic.

Last I heard he had a master and Tevinter mages did all kinda wild things right out on the streets. Even Feynreil was like, "I think I understand the Templars now" . Which only made me wonder wth are they doing there?

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Doesn't change anything. I can see no reason why one particular ideology's notion of sin should be built into the way the Fade works. Morality is in our minds, not in the natural laws of the universe, and I can't believe Bioware would make Thedas different in that. It could be that people's collective beliefs influence the way the Fade works, but then, the religion of the Maker didn't exist when the ancient Magisters attempted to enter the city, so "usurping the Maker" didn't come into it.  

Except that's exactly how the Fade works.  Thought creates reality.  What's in your mind shapes the Fade and the creatures in it.
 

(BTW, I really hate this notion of physical "uglification" as a sign of moral corruption, for much the same reason. Morality is a construct of the human mind, there is no reason why this should have physical effects. I know it's a favorite trope in some circles, but Bioware should really think about the message they're sending by using this in almost every one of their games.)

Well as you've noted, it's a very old trope.  But I should also pont out that lyrium also has a mutagenic effect if yoiu take it over a very long period of time.  I'm left to wonder how much of Corypheus's appearance was due to the taint, and how much due to a lifetime of lyrium use.

Now, yes, if Corypheus is correct (and he had no reason to lie) then the City was already blackened, the Chantry appears to be wrong in what happened to the Golden City.  My thought is there's something out there stalking the gods of Thedas,as an awful lot of them seem to have disappeared in the last few millenia

That would mean this entity/faction/whatever has foreseen what would happen to the Old Gods as a result of the creation of the darkspawn. Very odd...

Heck, it could have been a trap for the Old Gods.  Given the assault on the Golden City was supposedly at Dumat's behest.

Genuinely believing bullsh*t doesn't make it better. Also, I guess the higher echelons and scholars of the Chantry don't believe this literally, but see it as a parable. Not that they'd ever tell the common people that.

Well, as you say, it's guesswork.  At least until we can ascertain whether or not Andraste really heard the voice of the Maker.  And I doubt that will be answered anytime soon 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.
I don't believe the Maker has anything to do with it.
I don't believe that the ancient Magisters caused any "corruption" there.

All that is propaganda by the Chantry, and I would really hate any indication that we're meant to take it literally.

Other than that, I would like to know more about it. An NPC I don't recall says that "there is a connection between the Black City and the darkspawn". I would like that to be a explored in a future DA story.

2)Andraste "Maker" is just some demon of fade(like desire demon) or just mage Andraste(who have a hard life) imagination/lie, NO ONE even heard abouit him before Andraste conquers and NO ONE exept Andraste and Archont Hessrian(after he personaly kill Andraste and later see her in fade) never see or heard him

3)as we know Archdemons are commanders of any Darkspawns so in any case it not make sense to blame those few Tevinter Magisters who was in Black City(even dwarfs with elves was never believed  that Magisters was sourse of Blight)


yes this is Orlais Chantry propoganda about "evil Tevinter Magisters who came in Black city by many of blood magic rituals and after created Blights" what was created by Orlais after 2 or 3 blight to start their Exalted Marshes and conquer lands

I put 100 gold coins that pass in the Black City is located somewhere in the Deep Roads (under destoyed Arlahtan or in the Sea of Ash) and Magisters found him with Dumat instructions and some dwarven help

so black city it was a underground jail for Dalish Forgotens or maybe it is a "corrupted ghost of Arlathan" in the Fade(Arlathan was destroyed by Ancient Tevinters army with dragons, demons and powerfull blood magic rituals)

Untrue. The story of the Magisters breaching the Golden City has always been in the Chant of Light. It dates back to the time of Andraste. She was the one who blamed the Tevinter Maigsters for the Blight.

Also David Gaider said that belief in a Maker was not a new idea even in Ancient Tevinter.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juin 2013 - 11:37 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Balian : "What is 'Black City' were?"
Saladin : "Nothing......everything...."

I think that city is the beginning of everything, it is all started there, and it will end there. the conflict between Mages and Templar is because of that city, darkspawn conflict started at that city, Mages being blamed for everything started at that city. Black City is important, there is the answer for everything.

[Swagger7]

Personally I don't want to learn too much about the Black City (including going there). Far too few games or works of fiction in general are so wonderfully vague about the truth of the setting's religions. I like that about DA, and actually hope that there is never a definitive answer. I would however, love more tasty tidbits of info like Corrypheus's little spiel. It would also be neat to get a closer glipse of the Black City. I know all points in the Fade are supposed to be equidistant to it, but what if in DAI someone accidentally discovers a way to appear right outside of it, and brings your party along. Suddenly and unexpectedly appearing next to the Black City would be a great surprise.

[Swagger7]

rapscallioness wrote...

Were they punked by dumat?

It turns out that, rather than being the God of Silence, Dumat is the God of Trolling People.....

[Boycott Bioware]

Swagger7 wrote...
... Far too few games or works of fiction in general are so wonderfully vague about the truth of the setting's religions. I like that about DA, and actually hope that there is never a definitive answer...

There will be no definitive answer i think, it just things are concluded there. There will be no physical proof of The Maker or any gods existence, but the issue of Mages and darkspawn can be concluded in that city. It can be made without challenging the religious faith about the God, only interpretation of the dogmas and doctrine

Similar like "Kingdom of Heaven", that movie is not about who's religion is right or wrong, only that Jerusalem was belong to the Arabs, and they take it back from the European, that movie is not about the truth of any religion, but about political struggle between the east and the west. So when Balian surrender Jerusalem to Saladin, he say "If this is the Kingdom of Heaven, then let God decide it's fate", the director of that movie is wise in never challenging the faith of the two religion, but the story concluded that Jerusalem is given back to the Arabs to govern it. But afterward the movie show there is another European is on the way to Jerusalem...

Modifié par Qistina, 05 juin 2013 - 04:32 .

[rapscallioness]

Swagger7 wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Were they punked by dumat?

It turns out that, rather than being the God of Silence, Dumat is the God of Trolling People.....

The Old God Troll.

Hmm, we don't actually know for sure that these dragons are actually old gods, tho. Do we? Aren't they just believed to be the old gods the tevinter once worshipped?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Architect confirmed that the Archdemon the Warden killed was Urthemiel.

[rapscallioness]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Architect confirmed that the Archdemon the Warden killed was Urthemiel.

Ah, that's right. Thank you. I forgot abt that.

edit: and it was that god that is now the ogb. somehwere on the other side of the fade. I wonder if Morrigan would have info on the black city. She travelled to the other side of the fade....whatever is over there.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 05 juin 2013 - 04:54 .

[rapscallioness]

I really must get some sleep, but I love these kinds of threads. I wish more ppl did...

[St. Victorious]

Today while super bored at work I was actually mulling this over in my head. I started trying to connect dots to make up a sense of the Golden City mess.

First off, why are most of the Eluvian corrupted? There's no particular reason for them to bear the taint unless they have something to do with it's spread. My conjecture is that the Tevinter Imperium attacked Arlathan to get their hands on the Eluvian there. As we know, they're actually portals. So what if they led to the Golden City? Most magisters could only use them for communication, however Dumat gave Coryphues and Co. the secret to activating them and wham, Golden City bound. If the legend about Fen'Harel sealing the gods away has any truth I'd bet the he sent the magisters there to seek out a way free the Old Gods.

In the legend of Fen'Harel sealing away the Pantheon, it mentions them agreeing to abandon heaven for their truce. Well what if the Golden City isn't the seat of the Maker, but the heavens of the Elven Pantheon abandoned? The Elven people would walk among here before it's sealing. My belief is that it reflects the nature of those who walk the city. The benign Elven gods left the city golden. But when the corrupted magisters entered the city, it instantly turned black and their corruption was given form. The Eluvians connected still to the City projected the taint and the first blight began.

Possible? Maybe. A result of shear boredom? Absolutely.

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Doesn't change anything. I can see no reason why one particular ideology's notion of sin should be built into the way the Fade works. Morality is in our minds, not in the natural laws of the universe, and I can't believe Bioware would make Thedas different in that. It could be that people's collective beliefs influence the way the Fade works, but then, the religion of the Maker didn't exist when the ancient Magisters attempted to enter the city, so "usurping the Maker" didn't come into it.  

Except that's exactly how the Fade works.  Thought creates reality.  What's in your mind shapes the Fade and the creatures in it.

Then there is no "truth" to the matter and reality is fluid. It's not one ideology built into the universe, but no ideology built into it. Fine with me. 

Also, I already conceded the point, only if the Fade is shaped by people's collective beliefs, then one would expect their dominant beliefs to be represented. The religion of the Maker may or may not be dominant in the present, but it certainly wasn't dominant back when the Magisters made their attempt to enter the City. So, the story of the city's "corruption" is still likely to be Chantry propaganda.

Well, as you say, it's guesswork.  At least until we can ascertain whether or not Andraste really heard the voice of the Maker.  And I doubt that will be answered anytime soon

I doubt we'll see the core beliefs of any religion proven or disproven unless they are about real historical events. That's very much ok with me. Too many fantasy stories (and even nominally SF ones) build an ideology into their universes, I like that Thedas is different.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 juin 2013 - 06:02 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Interestingly in TES, the Gods are physically shown, the Daedras of course, not the Aedras, because the Aedras is a kind of "dead Gods" so we don't see them physically. (Edit : Talos is human who being worshiped as God by the Nords)

Bethesda really have a gut showing "god is proven physically" so there are no atheists in TES world.

Of course as a player i can interpret that those "gods" in TES are "aliens", but the character in TES world believe those as Gods and worship them. Uniquely in Skyrim the character we play have "rejection" dialogue when doing the Daedric quests by calling the Daedras as "demons", there is a dialogue "I don't want to have anything to do with you demon!" in one of the quest, and such remark in other quests. One of Daedric quest is disturbing, such as Molag Bal quest where we must torture a priest in a cage to death and the reward is an awesome mace of evil, others such as sacrificing a life of a person to get cool items. So as a player i can say those are not gods but alien demon that peoples are worshiping in TES world

Bethesda also dare to show physically about witchcraft practices, summoning zombies, sacrificing peoples, trapping souls....i think if Bioware did it, will get negative respond instead. The zombie mom is something "shocking" for some players lol

Modifié par Qistina, 05 juin 2013 - 06:16 .

[The_FenixV]

Qistina wrote...

Interestingly in TES, the Gods are physically shown, the Daedras of course, not the Aedras, because the Aedras is a kind of "dead Gods" so we don't see them physically.

Bethesda really have a gut showing "god is proven physically" so there are no atheists in TES world.

Of course as a player i can interpret that those "gods" in TES are "aliens", but the character in TES world believe those as Gods and worship them. Uniquely in Skyrim the character we play have "rejection" dialogue when doing the Daedric quests by calling the Daedras as "demons", there is a dialogue "I don't want to have anything to do with you demon!" in one of the quest, and such remark in other quests. One of Daedric quest is disturbing, such as Molag Bal quest where we must torture a priest in a cage and the reward is an awesome mace of evil, others such as sacrificing a life of a person to get cool items. So as a player i can say those are not gods but alien demon that peoples are worshiping in TES world

Bethesda also dare to show physically about witchcraft practices, summoning zombies, sacrificing peoples, trapping souls....i think if Bioware did it, will get negative respond instead. The zombie mom is something "shocking" for some players lol

Ah killing that priest was fun, and that cannibal quest was also fun, the Daedras are down to earth gods in that game, they know how to have fun at least, but you should really stay on topic instead of mentioning other games. 

Edit: On Topic, if they want to give us info about the black city, they will do so by codex. It doesn't make sense for your character to enter the black city, if he does, we should get a major game over screen and see our pc turn into a darkspawn and that's it. (Or make that an ending) Curiosity isn't always the best thing after all. 

Modifié par The_FenixV, 05 juin 2013 - 06:25 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The_FenixV wrote...
Ah killing that priest was fun, and that cannibal quest was also fun, the Daedras are down to earth gods in that game, they know how to have fun at least, but you should really stay on topic instead of mentioning other games.

The cannibal thing is not actually "cannibal" because i am not sure eating corpses is cannibalism, it is something more...eeeewh. lol

No, my point is if Bioware want to show "The Maker", "The Creator", the gods and angels in DA, then it lost it's fun, the "religion" thing will lost it's sense because religion is about faith. If Bioware show let say The Maker is a bearded guy wearing an armor and Andraste at his side as a wife, then i lost interest in the lore, because it being shwon physically, i can say "oh, some kind of a spirit resembling a man who stole a wife of another man" if you know what i mean

[Dova]

Tinxa wrote...

I don't know... the black city is such a big part of mythology than unblacking it would need to be a whole game plot. I'd rather it remained a mystery.

This tbh. The Black City sounds really interesting , but like, it'd really go off-focus and need a whole new plot. 
It could possibly work as some form of DLC.

[The_FenixV]

Qistina wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...
Ah killing that priest was fun, and that cannibal quest was also fun, the Daedras are down to earth gods in that game, they know how to have fun at least, but you should really stay on topic instead of mentioning other games.

The cannibal thing is not actually "cannibal" because i am not sure eating corpses is cannibalism, it is something more...eeeewh. lol

No, my point is if Bioware want to show "The Maker", "The Creator", the gods and angels in DA, then it lost it's fun, the "religion" thing will lost it's sense because religion is about faith. If Bioware show let say The Maker is a bearded guy wearing an armor and Andraste at his side as a wife, then i lost interest in the lore, because it being shwon physically, i can say "oh, some kind of a spirit resembling a man who stole a wife of another man" if you know what i mean

You should of said that before, I have to agree with that, I don't want to see the maker and Andraste.. heck even seeing her ashes bugged me a bit. 

[Boycott Bioware]

The_FenixV wrote...
You should of said that before, I have to agree with that, I don't want to see the maker and Andraste.. heck even seeing her ashes bugged me a bit.

Andraste Ash is okay for me, because we know Andraste was a human, belived to be a prophet and "The Maker's bride". Seeing her ash is okay, if it is really her ash anyway and not some chemical healing dust of ancient Mages stored in an a urn

But let The Maker remain oblivious, it make religion in DA world have it's sense. religion is "believing the unseen". It can be doubted, challenged, not believe it, believe it in other way, open to interpretation and debates

Modifié par Qistina, 05 juin 2013 - 06:58 .

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Then there is no "truth" to the matter and reality is fluid. It's not one ideology built into the universe, but no ideology built into it. Fine with me. 

Also, I already conceded the point, only if the Fade is shaped by people's collective beliefs, then one would expect their dominant beliefs to be represented. The religion of the Maker may or may not be dominant in the present, but it certainly wasn't dominant back when the Magisters made their attempt to enter the City. So, the story of the city's "corruption" is still likely to be Chantry propaganda.

Belief in the Maker was around long before Andreste's time.  Even if he was no longer widely worshipped.  In fact, the magisters attempted to storm the Golden City some two hundred years before Andraste was even born.

So even the Tevinters believed in the Golden City back when worship of the Maker was nothing more than a cult worshipped by some southern barbarians.

Something happened to blacken it.  Something caused those magisters to be tainted and turn into the first darkspawn.  These are pretty much matters of historical record, backed up by Corypheus's words.  But was it the Maker's curse?  Was it a side effect of the magisters entering the Fade physically?  A trap for the Old Gods or their followers?  Something we haven't even considered yet?  That is unknown.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Wolf Man wrote...

 Lately one of the biggest questions I have about DA3 is...will we venture to the black city? Or will the black city, in any way/shape/form be part of the game? 

Is anyone else interested in exploring this more? Maybe the PC of da3 discovers a way up there while in the fade. Maybe we can find a way to return it to the Golden City and discover the truth behind the city's origin (there's mythology surrounding it - but what is the *real* story?). 

It would be very cool if, by visiting the black city, the PC may be changed somehow - whether tainted like the magisters or something more (become an old god?)....

According to Avernus' journals when he sleeps he feels himself being drawn to the Black City by the taint inside him. And he believes the secrets of it are there.

Also the Black Marsh fade dream happens literally right next to the Black City.

[Boycott Bioware]

But....what the HELL was that ruin? Who built it? Why was it there? Who abandoned the mirror there? Why were those men in the woods, by the way. Just three dudes, walking around, and they find some ruin? Were they really just passersby or was it all a setup to get someone to go into the ruin and find the mirror which led to the Black City.....?

Duncan hired those 3 dudes to lure the two elves into the ruin, he know the two Elves will touch the mirror, get tainted and he can get his Grey Warden recruit. isn't it obvious? there's no darkwpawn in the area until Duncan show up. He also destroy the mirror and so no one can study the cure because he want Grey Warden recruit. Merethari surely have heal the main character, and the main character is healthy, but Duncan insist that the main character is tainted and not healed, he lie. If Merethari can study the mirror, she will know the secret and improvise her method of healing the taint and making it a mass production, Grey Warden will cease to exist, no need for them anymore.... And so Duncan is not wasting his time going into Brecilian forest, he got what he want, a Grey Warden recruit to carry out Grey Warden conspiracy....