177 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

azarhal wrote...

stonemyst wrote...

Why does the term golden city/black city have to mean that. I would have thought the golden city ment it was a enlightenment a beacon of knowledge for all to see. What we see in the fade seems more like a prison than golden/black city.

There is something inside the City, Avernus's notes (Warden's Keep DLC) mention earing the most beautiful voice, even while awake, coming from it. Considering that what Avernus hear is the "Calling", we have a link between the Taint and the Black City.

I'm a fan of the "honeypot" theory personally:
1. make your prison look golden
2. find gullible idiots to come free you by promising power (whisper to them through their dreams)
3.???? (taint them?)
4. profit! (freedom)

Ieldra2 wrote...
We can see the Black City from everywhere in
the Fade, but was it always that way? The DAI trailer suggests that
large-scale changes in the Fade might be possible.  Also, the magisters
went into the Fade *physically* to enter the City, which means it's
quite possible they never saw it from afar within the Fade but attempted
to "teleport right in", so to speak.

The Black City is the only thing that never change in the Fade (well beside losing the Golden look). It always stand at equal distance from everything and can be seen from everywhere. Considering how the Fade is "made", it might be because the spirits and demons try to stay away from it.

World of Thedas also has lore bits which mention the "Golden city" pre-Fall of Arlathan, form both elves and humans. The catch is that both elves and humans consider the place related to their own gods before the fall of Arlathan. The elves even believe that their good gods were trapped in it by Fen'Harel (right before they lost Arlathan).

We might be facing a singular phenomenon that was interpreted differently by two cultures...and both can be extremely wrong.

Is there lore of the Golden City from before the Fall of Arlathan? All I read was written from an historian's perspective. Would you point me to the relevant source, please?

[azarhal]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Is there lore of the Golden City from before the Fall of Arlathan? All I read was written from an historian's perspective. Would you point me to the relevant source, please?

Source: World of Thedas

It has sections on the Fade and the Black City. The writing just says it is based on old elven lore and the ancient Tevinter magisters though, we don't have the +1500 years "old texts" that goes with it. World of Thedas leaves no doubts that the Golden City "myth" is linked to the Old Gods worship which started years before the Fall of Arlathan.

Modifié par azarhal, 29 juin 2013 - 08:06 .

[Gorguz]

I think the maker is the dread wolf, and him and all the other gods are nothing but powerlful spirits. There is a dimension beyond the Veil, that's where are the entities which created the part of the world we can see. The black city could be a link between their dimension and the Veil, and when the men tried to conquer it, the entities created the corruption to impede them the access.

[Eveangaline]

I wonder if whoever led them to release the taint wanted to kill the old gods.

Before, there might have been no way to take them out, but a tainted god can be killed by a grey warden.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I'm willing to bet (with this tear in the veil) that visiting the Black City will become part of the story at some point. No doubt its corruption and origin will be left ambiguous for the player to decide if it does indeed feature.

Wouldn't mind never getting to it though then that way it remains a mystery forever. I think just seeing it even closer up would suffice. That would be a tease to be sure but at least you'll see its structures.

[XGrlGamerX]

I think the Black City is suppose to be symbolic of our world's "heaven." What makes the game realistic is that you have the chantry (which is heavily based on Christianity), and the different Dalish, Quanri, and Old God religions. You have people who worship Andrastes and the Maker heavily, Leliana, and those who are opposed to it and think it's just a story, Morrigan. You have people on both spectrums like you do in our world.

I think a story to the Black City would be amazing (considering it is very "end of the worldish") with the Maker coming back during an epic battle, but that might take away from the folklore of Thedas. Bioware might feel like it's too much of taking a "side" if they push that in their fake world that the Maker is real.

Personally, if they think it's a good story, than I say go ahead, but I can see why they wouldn't go forward with that concept. It's their world, they can do whatever they want with it, as long as they provide me with a good story and character development. haha

[phunx]

I remember Gaider talking about religions specifically being vague; faith is required. Much like in our world. Also the myths overlap, like they do in our world.

Gods also tend to get annoyed, if you want to "know" them (Tower of Babel comes to mind). You can only come so close to a god (metaphorically) and you are punished if you try to (physically )get close to him.

I think we will never really know, nor should we.

[Ieldra]

phunx wrote...
I remember Gaider talking about religions specifically being vague; faith is required. Much like in our world. Also the myths overlap, like they do in our world.

Gods also tend to get annoyed, if you want to "know" them (Tower of Babel comes to mind). You can only come so close to a god (metaphorically) and you are punished if you try to (physically )get close to him.

I think we will never really know, nor should we.

That depends. I think there's a big chance we'll get to know what really happened to the ancient magisters when they attempted to reach the purportedly golden city. Even if it becomes known that it was all a conspiracy by the Old Gods or something, the Chantry is still free to believe it was ultimately the hand of the Maker who turned the ancient magisters into darkspawn, and it's still free to believe the city was once the seat of the Maker. Just like in the real world, historical accounts will never support such an interpretation, but will also not be able to deny it outright since the  assumption of a hidden hand in anything is immune to being strictly disproven on empirical grounds. As usual, the religious will take this as an affirmation of their faith, while the non-religious will point out it's perfectly reasonable to deny the Maker's existence based on absence of any evidence, which should be there had he really taken action.

I think the ultimate truth of the Maker's existence or lack thereof will not and should not be revealed because it makes religion on Thedas more relatable. I recall that Aveline expresses doubt in some of the Chant, and things like this illustrate characters in way which would be impossible were an "ultimate truth" revealed.

However, revealing the existence of deities also opens more ways of relating to them because in the end, they'd be revealed as nothing more than super-powerful magical entities with an agenda of their own which may or may not be compatible with their worshippers' wellbeing. And it would be possible to fight them in person than only their worshippers. We all know the Maker is a bastard (), but an intensely misotheistic character would be rather more interesting in such a scenario.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 juillet 2013 - 10:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind going to the Black City and killing the Maker if he really is around. I love games where you can eventually kill the 'verse Gods.

And I hate them.
It's just stupid.


Not to mention the last time anyone went there it took the combined effort of dozens of the mightiest mages, huge amounts of Tevinters liyrum, and sacrifices of thousands of innocents.

I don't see the player as capable of replicating it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 juillet 2013 - 10:42 .

[fchopin]

I would be interested in playing a game about the black city.

[DarthLaxian]

hm...

become an old god? - that would make for a very good ending IMHO

but yeah, i would love to visit the black city (and bring some things back, like: the true story of that place (finding out if the chantry are liars like i think they are all a long), maybe a demon-character that travels with you or a magister that has been trapped there for ages and some interesting items (i want to go there "in the flesh" so to speak, not just dreaming and not getting any stuff, as you well only "dream"))

greetings LAX

[Ziggeh]

While I'm a big fan of the faith aspect of their mythology, I can see the Black City being something that gets explored. It's been visited by mortals before, and while that was extraordinary circumstance, the nature of fiction practically demands our characters live through extraordinary events. It can be done without revealing nature of things. Indeed, it can be used to raise whole new set of questions.

[phunx]

Ieldra2 wrote...

However, revealing the existence of deities also opens more ways of relating to them because in the end, they'd be revealed as nothing more than super-powerful magical entities with an agenda of their own which may or may not be compatible with their worshippers' wellbeing. And it would be possible to fight them in person than only their worshippers. We all know the Maker is a bastard (), but an intensely misotheistic character would be rather more interesting in such a scenario.

Well yes, but when such things are revealed  in videogames it too often goes "God of War" (or Xena: The Warrior Princess) route and that is that. I am not sure, I'd enjoy that.

[TheLastArchivist]

My opinion on this:

The Fade seems to be a world that reflects everything that happens in the real world.

It is not real, rather a mental projection of reality. It is built by the minds of people and, like the workings of the mind, it is unstable and forever changing. Every time someone dreams, their thoughts are rearranged during he night and the Fade itself is redesigned to suit the visitor's current state of mind.

I believe the Fade only exists because of Magic. If it weren't for magic, the Fade would disappear every night. But there must be something, some quality to magic, that allows illusions to take shape and become physical, thus forming this strange realm. That is why a mage spell can hurt someone, but never destroy a door, for example, as stated in the franchise.

The Fade is a creation of magic itself. Magic takes imagined things and makes them real. With dreams and visions, it turns them into this realm -the Fade- that can only be visited inside the mind.

Extending this logic to demons and spirits, it is Magic which would allow for feelings to take a precise shape inside the Fade, thus giving them substance. Therefore, feelings of revenge would create a demon of rage; feelings of righteousness would originate the spirit of justice, asf.

We can safely assume that everything good or bad that happens with the state of the world will be mirrored in the Fade. Atrocities in large scale would turn the Fade into a dismal realm.
When the magisters of Tevinter sacrificed thousands of slaves to open a gateway to the Maker's city, using blood magic - a form of magic already said to be evil in essence - that action must have had such a heavy impact on the nature of magic itself that it was manifested in the Fade by the creation of a big black nothing, visible at its core.

The core of the Fade could be where all magic originates from. If a big sacrificial rite was executed by mages, maybe it had a negative effect in the very source of magic, maculating it.
And as this blood magic is still active, every darkspawn carries its effects within its body. Therefore, the corruption is a byproduct of this blood magic. The darkspawn are normal beings twisted by this tainted magic; they will continue to exist in that twisted form while the black city does.

As long as the black city exists, that is, as long as nobody finds a way to purify the core of magic from the sacrificial rite that maculated it in the first place, the Corruption will neve cease to exist and it will continue to spread through Thedas.

So, if this hypothesis has any viability at all, then the Maker would not be an entity, but in fact be...the source of magic itself. And is it up to the mortals to purify Him again.

Modifié par LegendofKirkwall, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:06 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It doesn't really make sense to me why we'd ever go to the Black City. Regardless of why the Black city is black, we do know that it's a VERY BAD place. Going there would almost certainly spell doom for the protagonist and probably more.

[Plaintiff]

I don't see Bioware doing anything to either confirm or deny the Chantry's dogma.

[Ghaleon]

The Wolf Man wrote...

 Lately one of the biggest questions I have about DA3 is...will we venture to the black city? Or will the black city, in any way/shape/form be part of the game? 

Is anyone else interested in exploring this more? Maybe the PC of da3 discovers a way up there while in the fade. Maybe we can find a way to return it to the Golden City and discover the truth behind the city's origin (there's mythology surrounding it - but what is the *real* story?). 

It would be very cool if, by visiting the black city, the PC may be changed somehow - whether tainted like the magisters or something more (become an old god?)....

I would love to visit the  black city or even be able to get somewhat closer to it to see it better. ever since i read the lore in the  codex then  saw it in Origins during the broken circle quest i have wanted to see more know more guess i am as bad as the ancient magisters.

Modifié par Ghaleon80, 28 juillet 2013 - 06:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, it's worth noting that Going to the Black City (assuming we could or should) doesn't necessarily mean we'll find out what happened there. And finding out that magisters did travel there and turn the city black doesn't necessarily confirm the Maker or other Chantry dogma.

[Diefenbaker]

I think the golden/black city could be the fade taking the memories of Minrathous from the corrupt mages.

Minrathous was a symbol of Tevinter glory until blood magic was used for great suffering. The fade warped the city when the mages got near in order to reflect the change. This is the nature of the fade.

Or, it was due to the following:

The old god dragons lured the mages to come to them through dreams and their connection to the fade, promising they would rule over a great golden city. I think the old gods knew the fade would manipulate this idea of a city from the mages memories and create it before them.  But the old golds betrayed them as all they wanted was to turn the mages into dark spawn as a way of building an army and gaining power through blights.

When you enter the fade as the Warden, he/she see the black city in the distance because his/her memory would expect to see such a thing based on the legends.

[Taura-Tierno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It doesn't really make sense to me why we'd ever go to the Black City. Regardless of why the Black city is black, we do know that it's a VERY BAD place. Going there would almost certainly spell doom for the protagonist and probably more.

I do wonder ... could a Grey Warden go, since they're already tainted, without being totally corrupted? 

Some people have speculated that the Black City is in fact Arlathan. In that case, could an elf go? 

Although I agree that in Thedas, few people would probably be mad enough to want to go there right now. Whether you believe in the Chantry or not, it seems most people agree that it is, as you say, a bad place. 

[myahele]

Eveangaline wrote...

I wonder if whoever led them to release the taint wanted to kill the old gods.

Before, there might have been no way to take them out, but a tainted god can be killed by a grey warden.

I'm not quite sure, but didn't it take hundreds (maybe 200) of years until somebody came up with the creation of the Grey Wardens?

It my oppinion the Grey Wardens were never part of any plan and were just a serrendipidous discovery to combat Darkspawns.

With that in mind...maybe the original goals of the Old Gods/ Darkspawn was to revive/taint all the old gods. With civilization gone the archdemons are free to rule over the world once again.

[Incantrix]

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.

How could it not have been? We know for a fact the Magisters broke into it which suggests it was visible since before Tevinter. Thus, it follows that, at that point, it appeared golden or Corypheus and his ilk wouldn't have believed it to be. Corypheus specifically mentions that the city was "supposed to be golden."
If the City was golden or appeared to be until the Magisters actually entered it; and now everyone sees it as a dark city; it strongly suggests their invasion was the catalyst of some change, Maker-related or not.

What I get from that is that the city wasn't golden to begin with. But I don't know if it is Chantry propaganda or not. For all we know the Maker was a real person or being like Flemeth that existed and for some reason could benefit by telling people lies about a Golden city that everyone who believes in him can go when they die. Honestly, it sounds kind of shady to me. Telling people to have Exalted Marches which causes more death and destruction, putting fear into people that they would be wandering oblivion for not beliving. Sounds like some ulterior motives to me. I'm just speculating here but I find the Chantry to be suckers more than some evil organization spreading lies. imo.

So, the Maker was a demon? That sounds about right. Maybe Andraste was an abomination, just a really clever one. Maybe the maker is the demon of all demons? 

That would explain the city already being black, which I think I'd the truth.

Modifié par Incantrix, 23 septembre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Uh, the Maker doesn't tell people to do things anymore. The Chantry believes he's abandoned the world. Belief in the Maker was not widespread until after the Golden City turned black. The Tevinter magisters thought the city was gold long before the Chantry existed. World of Thedas says that they believed it was the center of the Old Gods' power.

[septembervirgin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't believe the Black City was ever golden.

Brilliant.  But maybe the Golden City is a representation of Thedas, whereas the Black City is an old and dessicated representation of the Fade.  These representations are like movie sets, you can walk around them.  The Fade is now poisonous to mortals, emanating from lyrium vapors and other stranger substances; it's a latticed network of regions that can be accessed through lyrium and lyrium sensitivity.

The Golden City can no longer be seen because it has become Thedas in truth, identically.

I'm none too invested in that theory, but it's something.

I don't believe the Maker has anything to do with it.

Maybe the Maker was a department and several different department heads, none of whom were elven nor Tevinter gods, but survivors of an ancient reptilian people who lived in pylons and have a ruined city in a land where dragons fill the skies and devour eachother.  Explorers Marshall, Will, and Holly found such a location in a routine expedition... These reptilians now impersonate popular Tevinter bloodlines and... um... oh!  They are opposed to the draconic Tevinter gods too, who attempted to successfully repel the invasion of the Maker department of studies but were wounded horribly in the process.

I'm none too invested in that theory either.  Just throwing it out there.

I don't believe that the ancient Magisters caused any "corruption" there.

Of course not.  The ancient magisters were all Bioware employees who will (someday) be lost in a dimensional rift during a rafting vacation.  They will stumble upon the Dragon Age universe at the appropriate period where the magisters will cast their spell and replace these magisters as darkspawn.

The darkspawn are actually all future versions of Bioware employees.  Do you see?

All that is propaganda by the Chantry, and I would really hate any indication that we're meant to take it literally.

I'd like to see this explored in a future Bioware title!

[Angrywolves]

too many duplicate threads.Someone just started another.
Yes I do believe the Golden City was black and something or someone tainted it.Yet I also believe what corypheus said.So who or what tainted it.Whether we ever find out remains to be seen.