150 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dark Korsar wrote...

1)and you still forget about Exalted Marshes, Blight,  conflicts in Antiva and Nevarra and what NO ONE know about Qunari  and their blitskrieg attack from unprotected north(after this Tevinter build defense systems)...and they still not conquer and rule Tevinter lands for all these years and without Tevinter other Сhantry countries who help only to Rivain and Free Marshes and after signed a peace treaty when Tevinter have fight with the main forces would be living by Qun...

I honestly don't know what you are saying here. The Fourth Blight ended 112 years before the Qunari invaded Tevinter.

Dark Korsar wrote...
the Qunari military is a peace of **** with some big slow wooden ships(full of Gaatlok who can be easily blown up or become wet) and unprotected from magic half naked warriors with common iron or steel weapons, all what they have is this meatbags warriors who in most cases have only one tactic...run and attack and not lose/break your weapon or you will be executed...still many of this soldiers run from Qun and became Tal-Vasgots

If the Qunari had a terrible millitary they would have been easily defeated in the Qunari War. They were not. It took  A HUNDRED YEARS for the humans to dislodge them from conquered territories even after they halted the Qunari advance. Qunari technology is more advanced than human technology. And their soldiers are bigger, stronger and more fanatical than most human nations' soldiers. The reason they stopped fighting  was not because of millitary defeats but because they couldn't protect the viddithari from massacres anymore. The Qunari in Kirkwall were the survivors of a shipwreck, and not intending to conquer. During the first invasion the Qunari soldiers wore steel armor. And despite that and many members dying and others deserting they still managed to defeat the defenders Kirkwall.

"History calls this the First Qunari War, but it was mostly a one-sided
bloodbath, with the Qunari advancing far into the mainland. Qunari
warriors in glittering steel armor carved through armies with ease.
Their cannons, the likes of which our ancestors had never seen, reduced
city walls to rubble in a matter of seconds." - Codex Entry: Par Vollen: the Occupied north

Dark Korsar wrote...
2)Tevinter is not some poor northen Rivain villiges who have freely walking Qunari forces who convert peoples who not know anything about Qunari and about their with their childrens future life in Qun....Tevinter have endless war against Qun and most of Tevinters population would hate Qun more than ever from the fact that Qun are the source of most of their troubles.

The Rivaini have lived under the Qun longer than anybody, they know it better than most. And the Tevinter's troubles are mostly of their own making. The Magisters are despotic and corrupt, so they is a large amount poor and disenfranchised people in Tevinter who want a better life. They would be eager to help the Qunari overthrow Tevinter. And most of Tevinter's troubles are most certainly their own making. Corruption, slavery, blood magic, it's all their fault.

The Codex entry on the Qunari of Other Races says that elves seem "particularly suceptible" to the Qun.

Dark Korsar wrote...
3)Constantinople not have golems, lyrium and many blood mages and if Mitranous was inspired by Constantinople in some cases(but it also Luskaan from Forgotten Realms) is not mean that we would have any historical parralel:D

And Constaninople wasn't ever beseiged by Qunari either. So?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 juin 2013 - 12:51 .

[Nightdragon8]

about the Elves and the Qun, in reality why live as a secondary-Tritary or slave, when you can live as an equal in the Qun...

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You almost make it sound like a Qunari victory is inevitable. I don't think the Qunari would automatically win against the independent mages.  

I think the qunari would obliterate any single state in Thedas, since they fought the entire contintent to a standstill centuries before. In fact, I think the mages are the only hope Thedas has of escaping the qunari, and no matter the outcome of the rebellion mages should be willing to do anything to escape what the qunari have planned for them. 

But a single struggling state led by people who don't know the first thing about setting up a village, much less supporting an entire country, beating the qunari alone borders on the absurd. 

As for an independent elven kingdom, I think it's possible, especially with the world distracted by so many different events going on. The Orlesians certainly thought the elves of the Dales wouldn't be much of a threat, and their perception of the matter was proven wrong when the fighting began, which is why it took all the Andrastian nations in an Exalted March to defeat the kingdom of the Dales.

There is a big difference - the Dales were healthy after not having participating in fighting off the blight. Their armies were whole, and Orlais was battered. regardless of who started the war. The Dalish had the military power to crush Orlais, and their military action against Orlais united all of Thedas against them.

What makes you think that this time, the rest of Thedas would stn

I was thinking more along the lines of the free mages having their own nation, which is an expanded idea I had from when I thought Hawke might be able to become the leader of Kirkwall and turn the city-state into a mecca for mages. Mages and non-mages living together. Maybe Nevarra could be that kingdom, if the rumors about a power vaccum opening up there are true (for a mage protagonist, at least). This is getting a little off topic, though.

So the mages are going to conquer Nerarra, and institute a benevolent mage oligarchy, and the rest of Thedas is going to stand by when - by all possible external perception - they just had Tevinter #2 set up? 

This is the worst case scenario for the mages. 

[DPSSOC]

Rassler wrote...

Bioware tends to not stand by things they show us. Velanna can make an entire forest become alive and as far as I know Dales is one of the greatest forests in Thedas if not the greatest one.

We also know that her attitude towards human's slowly changes in Awakening. She doesn't like them but she no longer sees them as honorless conquers.

So here is what happens: Velanna brings many trees to life in Dales and scares all humans away, The dalish come and settle, Conflict solved with Dalish claiming their land without further genocides.

Ok firstly let me point out the insanity of proposing a mass murderer as the source of a solution to centuries of hostile relations.

Secondly the Dalish have no claim to the Dales.  You cannot abandon a region for 700 years and still claim it as yours.  If the Dalish had stayed in the Dales; still moving, still keeping nomadic, but keeping to that region; then yeah they would still have some claim, but that's not what they did, they scattered themselves across Thedas and only meet up in the Dales on occasion.

Finally you're ignoring the other half of a fight or flight response.  Even if the humans are initially driven out by fear of the demon trees, as soon as the Dalish start to settle there they'll no what's up, who's to blame, and eventually they'll bring the hammer down.

[Angrywolves]

Clearly some people overrate the Qunari miltary. They not invincible .?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No but they're stronger than any other single nation.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok firstly let me point out the insanity of proposing a mass murderer as the source of a solution to centuries of hostile relations.

I'm curious; What do you think successful generals and military leaders are, if not the killers of many, many people? For that matter, what do you think all of your companions are?

Not that Velanna's past actions have any relevance to future undertakings at all.

Secondly the Dalish have no claim to the Dales.

Just like those pesky Native Americans, with all their whining and casinos.

You cannot abandon a region for 700 years and still claim it as yours.

Maybe not, but that's not what happened at all. The Dalish were driven out violently.

If the Dalish had stayed in the Dales; still moving, still keeping nomadic, but keeping to that region; then yeah they would still have some claim,

They'd also all be dead.

but that's not what they did, they scattered themselves across Thedas and only meet up in the Dales on occasion.

I see. How long do I have to be absent from my house before it's legally up for grabs to any squatters who happen to be passing?

Finally you're ignoring the other half of a fight or flight response.  Even if the humans are initially driven out by fear of the demon trees, as soon as the Dalish start to settle there they'll no what's up, who's to blame, and eventually they'll bring the hammer down.

Not if there's a whole magical, sentient forest surrounding it where visiting humans mysteriously 'vanish'.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 juin 2013 - 08:26 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

but that's not what they did, they scattered themselves across Thedas and only meet up in the Dales on occasion.

I see. How long do I have to be absent from my house before it's legally up for grabs to any squatters who happen to be passing?

In those exact terms, it doesn''t.  However, adverse possession, or ownership transfer based on occupancy, does exist, and depends on where you live.  Here in the US, I'm pretty sure that unless a state specifies otherwise, if they live there continuously  for five years without you running them out, ownership transfers to them.  Of course, I am not a lawyer, but that's my understanding.

That said this is an entirely different situation from a homeowner coming back and evicting a squatter.  As an American largely of European descent, I acknowledge that what my ancestors did to the native populace was ****ty as hell, and that they still get horribly treated today, and that needs to stop.  But if you told me I needed to vacate North America and move to Britain, I would laugh in your face.

The people who live in what was the Dales aren't the usurpers who stole the land.  They're people who have lived there for generations, whose livelihoods are tied there and have nowhere to go if you drive them out.  It's not as clear cut as you like to pretend.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Not if there's a whole magical, sentient forest surrounding it where visiting humans mysteriously 'vanish'.

1-It's morally abhorrent to suggest violently driving out thousands of families who have lived in and developed that land for 42 generations and killing any human who might have a problem with it or even gets close.

2- There is no mistery here. Several codex pages speak of sylvans and of travelers encountering them so, humans know what a sylvan is. All they have to do is ask themselves: "What group in Thedas counts mages in their ranks, has an uncomfortably close relationship with nature and whose history is filled with violence against humans who even get close to them?"
If there was any doubt left, all the humans would have to do is send a human and an elf into the forest and warn the elf that if he does not return within three days, his family will be killed. Thus, even if the elf reached the Dales, he would feel compelled to return.
Everyone would quickly realize the elves did it.

3-Isolationism breeds suspicion which breeds fear which breeds hatred. It doesn't take a genius to imagine what a sentient forest that kills humans would breed in the human kingdoms. Not only would they feel outraged at what the elves did to the human families who lived in the Dales, there would be many strategic an economical reasons to turn their attention towards the Dales who would quickly find itself surrounded by enemy states.
Orlais would want the land back, Nevarra and the Free Marches would want the land, period, the Anderfells would be outraged at heathen elves uprooting Andrastian settlements, Ferelden would rather have the Dales that it falling into orlesian hands again, Tevinter and the Qun would relish at the opportunity of a foothold into Southern Thedas.
Despite what elves may believe, humans have long since uncovered the mystical secret of (drum rolls, please) fire and fire accelerants (see: Battle of Redcliff). Meaning that sentient forest would go up in flames like nobody's business.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
1-It's morally abhorrent to suggest violently driving out thousands of families who have lived in and developed that land for 42 generations and killing any human who might have a problem with it or even gets close.

You don't have a problem when humans do it. You don't have a problem with any of the abhorrent acts committed by the people you perceive as "normal". You scramble to justify every atrocity commited by humans, and then condemn in the same breath any atrocity commited by non-humans or meta-humans, even when clearly committed in self-defense.

So, you know, I'll be taking any thing you have to say about moral values with a decent serving of salt.

2- 
If there was any doubt left, all the humans would have to do is send a human and an elf into the forest and warn the elf that if he does not return within three days, his family will be killed. Thus, even if the elf reached the Dales, he would feel compelled to return.
Everyone would quickly realize the elves did it.

The Dalish might just kill the elf. And there are already magical forests, like Brecilian Forest, that humans steer clear of generally. Not to mention the woods to the far north that are considered to be literally "impenetrable".

3-Isolationism breeds suspicion which breeds fear which breeds hatred.

Whereas interacting with the humans has so far brought the elves only good things!

El-oh-el. Maybe you should give that speech to the Chantry and the templars. And the nobility who maintain the alienages. But, oh wait! I forgot, it's okay to isolate others, just not yourself! And you can be "morally abhorrent" with impunity if MisterJB likes you.

If isolation does breed "fear and hatred", then that's because the people you're isolating yourself from are prejudiced bigots. Violence enacted upon the ostracized is in no way the fault of the person or group that is ostracized, even if their ostracization was self enforced. If a person or group wants to be alone, that deserves to be respected,  regardless of whether or not they have totally legitimate reasons to want to be separate (which the Dalish very much do), or if they simply value their privacy, which everyone is entitled to.

Next you're gonna tell me Boo Radley deserved to be dragged out of his house so all the characters in To Kill A Mockingbird could resolve the racial tension in town by ganging up to throw rocks at him.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 juin 2013 - 03:14 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
You don't have a problem when humans do it. You don't have a problem with any of the abhorrent acts committed by the people you perceive as "normal". You scramble to justify every atrocity commited by humans, and then condemn in the same breath any atrocity commited by non-humans or meta-humans, even when clearly committed in self-defense.

So, you know, I'll be taking any thing you have to say about moral values with a decent serving of salt.

Yes, I do, in fact. I just so happens the uprooting of the Dales happened 700 years ago and there is nothing I can do about it. Considering no one who participated in that war is alive today, I see no reason why the innocent descendants of the humans who conquered the Dales must sacrifice everything for the sake of the innocent descendants of the elves who escaped.

The Dalish might just kill the elf. And there are already magical forests, like Brecilian Forest, that humans steer clear of generally. Not to mention the woods to the far north that are considered to be literally "impenetrable".

Those forests didn't happen to surround an, until recently, human settlement and have been that way for centuries or even millenia. It's not the same as forest suddenly becoming possessed and specifically targeting humans.

Whereas interacting with the humans has so far brought the elves only good things!

Only? No. But it has worked to their benefit at times such as when the humans and elves worked together to free themselves from Tevinter. Afterwards, the human nations attempted to trade and engage in civilized dialogue with the Dales. It was their refusal to do either; as well as their inaction in the face of the Blight; that lead to the deterioration of human-elven relations; regardless of who started the war. It feels like I must mention this everytime so we can avoid the inevitable "The elves claim the humans started it."

Maybe you should give that speech to the Chantry and the templars.

Which I have. I have defended in the past the necessity of a more open Circle. But the situation is not the same given elven are not doted of special abilities that make them inherently more dangerous than humans.
Meaning the principles that make sense when speaking of elves may not apply to mages.

And the nobility who maintain the alienages. But, oh wait! I forgot, it's okay to isolate others, just not yourself!

Not only are the alienages self imposed; as in, the elves are there partially out of choice, partially out of fear; I have often argued in the past against them.

If isolation does breed "fear and hatred", then that's because the people you're isolating yourself from are prejudiced bigots. Violence enacted upon the ostracized is in no way the fault of the person or group that is ostracized, even if their ostracization was self enforced. If a person or group wants to be alone, that deserves to be respected,  regardless of whether or not they have totally legitimate reasons to want to be separate (which the Dalish very much do), or if they simply value their privacy, which everyone is entitled to.

Ideals are nice and everything but, most of the times, they just don't apply in the real world; or Thedas, as it were. Nations who presume to mantain land can't afford to block out all trade and diplomacy, two extremely important peacekeeping tools. This is not about what is moral or immoral to do; this is about what is the intelligent thing to do; that which might actually lead to an improvement of the living condition of the elves. Preferably, without harming the humans.

Also, I'd say the group who isolated itself on the basis that all non-elves are blight carrying pests are the prejudiced bigots.

Next you're gonna tell me Boo Radley deserved to be dragged out of his house so all the characters in To Kill A Mockingbird could resolve the racial tension in town by ganging up to throw rocks at him.

Never read it so, I can't comment. But I'm certain we can have an argument without the use of emotionally charged real world examples.

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB

"Considering no one who participated in that war is alive today, I see no reason why the innocent descendants of the humans who conquered the Dales must sacrifice everything for the sake of the innocent descendants of the elves who escaped."

but their "innocent" descendants still alive and they still opress, kill, rape them for generations without any problems and not allow them to defend themselfs, live in non-alianage territories, have their own culture and not worchip Maker

and Dalish have not much better life because of Orlais and their Chantry

if those "innocent" descedants of opressors,killers,rapists invaders not leave Dales(even with their property to make it more easy) peacefully so they will be forced to leave and would be executed(or mindcontroled to leave by blood magic) if they resist

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 05 juin 2013 - 08:44 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You almost make it sound like a Qunari victory is inevitable. I don't think the Qunari would automatically win against the independent mages.  

I think the qunari would obliterate any single state in Thedas, since they fought the entire contintent to a standstill centuries before. In fact, I think the mages are the only hope Thedas has of escaping the qunari, and no matter the outcome of the rebellion mages should be willing to do anything to escape what the qunari have planned for them. 

But a single struggling state led by people who don't know the first thing about setting up a village, much less supporting an entire country, beating the qunari alone borders on the absurd.

It all depends on the leadership that opposes the Qunari.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for an independent elven kingdom, I think it's possible, especially with the world distracted by so many different events going on. The Orlesians certainly thought the elves of the Dales wouldn't be much of a threat, and their perception of the matter was proven wrong when the fighting began, which is why it took all the Andrastian nations in an Exalted March to defeat the kingdom of the Dales.

There is a big difference - the Dales were healthy after not having participating in fighting off the blight. Their armies were whole, and Orlais was battered. regardless of who started the war. The Dalish had the military power to crush Orlais, and their military action against Orlais united all of Thedas against them.

What makes you think that this time, the rest of Thedas would stn

The rest of Thedas is dealing with the Mage-Templar War while Orlais is in the midst of a civil war for the throne. I think it's the perfect opportunity for the elves to reclaim the Dales.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking more along the lines of the free mages having their own nation, which is an expanded idea I had from when I thought Hawke might be able to become the leader of Kirkwall and turn the city-state into a mecca for mages. Mages and non-mages living together. Maybe Nevarra could be that kingdom, if the rumors about a power vaccum opening up there are true (for a mage protagonist, at least). This is getting a little off topic, though.

So the mages are going to conquer Nerarra, and institute a benevolent mage oligarchy, and the rest of Thedas is going to stand by when - by all possible external perception - they just had Tevinter #2 set up? 

This is the worst case scenario for the mages. 

If the autonomous mages forged an alliance with the Dalish elves and helped them dislodge the Orlesian Empire from the Dales while the mage protagonist became a leader of Nevarra and establishes the nation as a mecca for free mages across Thedas, I think it could dissuade the Chantry of Andraste or the Orlesian Empire from trying to muster an Exalted March among the other nations.

Hardly a worse case scenario for the mages or the elves.

[Aolbain]

Dark Korsar wrote...

MisterJB

"Considering no one who participated in that war is alive today, I see no reason why the innocent descendants of the humans who conquered the Dales must sacrifice everything for the sake of the innocent descendants of the elves who escaped."

but their "innocent" descendants still alive and they still opress, kill, rape them for generations without any problems and not allow them to defend themselfs, live in non-alianage territories, have their own culture and not worchip Maker

and Dalish have not much better life because of Orlais and their Chantry

if those "innocent" descedants of opressors,killers,rapists invaders not leave Dales(even with their property to make it more easy) peacefully so they will be forced to leave and would be executed(or mindcontroled to leave by blood magic) if they resist

If you are willing to commit genocide over fictional disputes I really hope you never get yourself fixated with a real world issue. #shudders#

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It all depends on the leadership that opposes the Qunari.

Not really. They simply don't have the resources or manpower to defeat the Qunari by themselves. I honestly think the best defence mages have against Qunari is by staying in the southern half of Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The rest of Thedas is dealing with the Mage-Templar War while Orlais is in the midst of a civil war for the throne. I think it's the perfect opportunity for the elves to reclaim the Dales.

Except the Dalish tribes are not a united fighting force and are scattered throughout the continent. I doubt they could ever find a consensus on the issue much less collectively find the willpower and resolve to all embark on an incredibly dangerous and costly war with the most powerful human nation in Thedas.

[Whitering]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ok firstly let me point out the insanity of proposing a mass murderer as the source of a solution to centuries of hostile relations.

I wish this was true, but umm, even recent history and going ons today show this to be the way humans tend to approach the issue. So, umm, well, I don't want to be inflammatory, but recent history in the Baltic region and Africa generally.

I would think that after the Blight from DAO Fereldan would have welcomed an Elven state between them and Orlais and the rest of the continent. We are to presume that many in the countryside were killed, so it's not unthinkable that they would seek allies to shore up their defences, and who better than the Elves?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It all depends on the leadership that opposes the Qunari.

No. It depends on the resources available to fight them. You could put the most brilliant general in existence in charge, but if you give her a pointy stick and nothing else, she's going to get trampled by the first onrush of cavalry. 

The rest of Thedas is dealing with the Mage-Templar War while Orlais is in the midst of a civil war for the throne. I think it's the perfect opportunity for the elves to reclaim the Dales.

The mage-templar dispute won't last forever, and if it engulfs all of Thedas, what makes you think that the fighting won't extend to the Dales? And why do you think that the mage-templar war will involve any other country per se? 

If the autonomous mages forged an alliance with the Dalish elves

Why would human mages gleefully participate in the masscare and forced resettlement of every human in the dales? Even if elven mages would, the clear racial divide of your agenda would splinter the mages in two. No

and helped them dislodge the Orlesian Empire from the Dales while the mage protagonist became a leader of Nevarra and establishes the nation as a mecca for free mages across Thedas,

You mean, if the mages conducted their own genocide in Neverra? Why is morally abhorent abuse of human rights your solution to everything? Seriously, how are you on the side of the downtrodden when all you want is to violence and abuse on others?

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Just like those pesky Native Americans, with all their whining and casinos.

Do you think that all Australians should abandon Australia, or that all North and South Americans should abandon the entire continent?

What happened is an absolute tragedy, but perpetrating a new tragedy is not the way to deal with the problem.  Despite all of our failings as a modern society, we've at least tried to progress toward substantive equality rather than swapping the abusers with the abused.

Modifié par In Exile, 06 juin 2013 - 02:02 .

[Angrywolves]

All this arguing.... Orlais and the chantry would have to give the territory back.
The Qunari aren't invincible and can be beaten.
shrugs.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It all depends on the leadership that opposes the Qunari.

No. It depends on the resources available to fight them. You could put the most brilliant general in existence in charge, but if you give her a pointy stick and nothing else, she's going to get trampled by the first onrush of cavalry.

You need good leadership to make effective use of your resources, and history has shown that effective leadership can take down more substantial forces, even when they didn't have as much as their opponents.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The rest of Thedas is dealing with the Mage-Templar War while Orlais is in the midst of a civil war for the throne. I think it's the perfect opportunity for the elves to reclaim the Dales.

The mage-templar dispute won't last forever, and if it engulfs all of Thedas, what makes you think that the fighting won't extend to the Dales? And why do you think that the mage-templar war will involve any other country per se?

I know there's a Circle in Orlais (although the lore seems to consistently change in regards to how many Circles there actually are, and where they are located), so I think the conflict would be focused mainly in that region. The Circles of Magi exist throughout the Andrastian kingdoms, with templars stationed in those regions, so I imagine the fighting would break out all over. I think that's why Varric talks about the world being on the brink of war.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the autonomous mages forged an alliance with the Dalish elves

Why would human mages gleefully participate in the masscare and forced resettlement of every human in the dales? Even if elven mages would, the clear racial divide of your agenda would splinter the mages in two.

Humans don't need to be massacred to be resettled, but that's not really the discussion here. Helping the elves reclaim leadership of the Dales could establish an ally in the region, which might be possible if an alliance is brokered between the People and the independent mages. Having the elves on one side and the mages on the other could weakn Orlais' position to attack either one, which could be part of the premise behind a hypothetical alliance between the Dalish clans and the mages of the autonomous Circles.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

and helped them dislodge the Orlesian Empire from the Dales while the mage protagonist became a leader of Nevarra and establishes the nation as a mecca for free mages across Thedas,

You mean, if the mages conducted their own genocide in Neverra? Why is morally abhorent abuse of human rights your solution to everything? Seriously, how are you on the side of the downtrodden when all you want is to violence and abuse on others? 

I'm going to simply ignore the genocide comment, because it doesn't have anything to do with what I actually said. I already addressed the rumors about the throne for Nevarra being a possibility, which is the point (although the rumors tend to focus on Cassandra as a canidate instead of the protagonist, given her family name). Similar to the Cousland Warden becoming the King-Consort or the Queen. Again, it's entirely hypothetical, but I suppose it would be one way to make sense of the "human only" limitation of the new protagonist.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You need good leadership to make effective use of your resources, and history has shown that effective leadership can take down more substantial forces, even when they didn't have as much as their opponents.

History has shown that lots of technical innovation in warfare can lead to victory over substantial numbers, and that this involves things like terrain and superior technology or tactics.

And this point, we don't know enough (at all, really) about how Thedas conducts war. But the actual answer is that - just as DA:O showed - narrative concerns will actually dictate all this, since Bioware doesn't "do" tactics in war. 

I know there's a Circle in Orlais (although the lore seems to consistently change in regards to how many Circles there actually are, and where they are located), so I think the conflict would be focused mainly in that region.  

Whether or not there is a Circle in Orlais doesn't mean that the Empire itself will be drawn into a dispute betwene the templars/mages, even with the civil war going on.

The Circles of Magi exist throughout the Andrastian kingdoms, with templars stationed in those regions, so I imagine the fighting would break out all over. I think that's why Varric talks about the world being on the brink of war.

But that still doesn't mean that (i) the war would last forever, (ii) the war would involve the actual nations, versus remain extrateritorial; (iii) all of Thedas won't just declare an Exalted March against the mages and elves.

Humans don't need to be massacred to be resettled, but that's not really the discussion here.  

Only in the magical fantasy world that you live in will people abandon their home for 700 years because an invading army demands that they do, so they can live in exile... where, exactly?

What do you think is going to happen when armed elves show up in front of your home and say "Leave or ... ?"

What do you think the "..." means? And what do you think the people there are going to do when they try to steal their homes, their land, and send them all into exile? 

Helping the elves reclaim leadership of the Dales could establish an ally in the region,  

Why would the human mages want to help a group that has nothing in common with them acquire political power that they could use against them on racial lines? The entire reason that they're fighting the war is oppression and bigotry. 

which might be possible if an alliance is brokered between the People and the independent mages.

Again, why would human mages side with elf mundanes for the sake of elves at the expense of humans? 

Having the elves on one side and the mages on the other could weakn Orlais' position to attack either one, which could be part of the premise behind a hypothetical alliance between the Dalish clans and the mages of the autonomous Circles.

Or it could be a single to every mundane in Thedas that it's the time to put aside national differences and unite against the greatest threat to the human mundanes since the Blight. 

The worst thing you can do in a war is give people a common cause based on what the paranoid racist lunatics fear. 

I'm going to simply ignore the genocide comment, because it doesn't have anything to do with what I actually said.

How exactly are the mages going to rule over Nevarra? If it isn't forced resettlement - which counts as genocide - then it's going to be through autocratic oppression and a Nevarran Imperium. 

I already addressed the rumors about the throne for Nevarra being a possibility, which is the point (although the rumors tend to focus on Cassandra as a canidate instead of the protagonist, given her family name). Similar to the Cousland Warden becoming the King-Consort or the Queen. Again, it's entirely hypothetical, but I suppose it would be one way to make sense of the "human only" limitation of the new protagonist.

Political instability in Nevarra is very differnet from an autocratic mage empire in Neverra. An Amell couldn't become King of Ferelden. 

Modifié par In Exile, 06 juin 2013 - 03:21 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
Do you think that all Australians should abandon Australia, or that all North and South Americans should abandon the entire continent?

What happened is an absolute tragedy, but perpetrating a new tragedy is not the way to deal with the problem.  Despite all of our failings as a modern society, we've at least tried to progress toward substantive equality rather than swapping the abusers with the abused.

No, but if I'm expected to accept that the premise that the "legitimate" owners of land are the people that can hold on to it, and the Dalish (and by extension real-world indigenous peoples) have to just "get over it", then the logical conclusion is that humans of Thedas and white people of the real world (a group that includes me) do not get to **** when/if the land is taken back from them, or perhaps conquered by someone else entirely. Turn-about is fair play.

How exactly do you imagine Thedas will progress towards "substantive equality", if the Dalish (and city elves for that matter) are continually denied a home, and expected to abandon their culutre and beliefs?

Any genuine move towards "substantive equality" is going to require a significant chunk of humans to be displaced. Just like substantive equality for Native Americans meant giving them land, just like substantive equality for the Quarians meant giving them a planet. There can be no progression until this happens. And since the humans of Thedas are unwilling to give it, the land must be taken by force.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 juin 2013 - 03:55 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
No, but if I'm expected to accept that the premise that the "legitimate" owners of land are the people that can hold on to it, and the Dalish (and by extension real-world indigenous peoples) have to just "get over it", then the logical conclusion is that humans of Thedas and white people of the real world (a group that includes me) do not get to **** when/if the land is taken back from them, or perhaps conquered by someone else entirely. Turn-about is fair play.

The idea of "legitimacy" is what's weird about this. I'm not attempting to defend other posters' views. I'm just talking about the basic underlying morals at play here. Otherwise, I'm not going to get into an IRL discussion any furher - if you honestly think that past suffering justifies inflicting future suffering, then that's that. 

It's not about whether someone has a "legitimate" claim to the land based on some notion of history. It's the basic reality that when you've got a massive entrenched population, you're going to have to commit crimes of a magnitude that makes a fair number of war criminals blush to implement your agenda. 

How exactly do you imagine Thedas will progress towards "substantive equality", if the Dalish (and city elves for that matter) are continually denied a home, and expected to abandon their culutre and beliefs?

But I don't think that. I think that encouraging the genocide of all elves at worst, or at best an eternal race based war, is an insane and immoral suggestion when it comes to substantive equality.

Any genuine move towards "substantive equality" is going to require a significant chunk of humans to be displaced. Just like substantive equality for Native Americans meant giving them land, just like substantive equality for the Quarians meant giving them a planet. There can be no progression until this happens. And since the humans of Thedas are unwilling to give it, the land must be taken by force.

 

Putting aside, again, the IRL dimension, the quarians are a good example. Their situation broke down into genocide unless Shepard used magic space diplomacy on them. 

The Geth didn't give up Rannoch. They did everything - up to and including eradicating the entire race - to protect their home. And the Quarians came in with the express goal of exeterminating the geth or mind controlling them into slavery. 

If your idea of substantive equality is mutual attempted genocide, then we've got bigger problems. 

Modifié par In Exile, 06 juin 2013 - 04:16 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
Putting aside, again, the IRL dimension, the quarians are a good example. Their situation broke down into genocide unless Shepard used magic space diplomacy on them. 

The Geth didn't give up Rannoch. They did everything - up to and including eradicating the entire race - to protect their home. And the Quarians came in with the express goal of exeterminating the geth or mind controlling them into slavery. 

If your idea of substantive equality is mutual attempted genocide, then we've got bigger problems. 

Quarian attitudes towards the Geth are irrelevent to the topic I was talking about, which was the attitudes of the Council races towards the Quarians, and for that matter, every one else they consider "weak" enough to safely ignore.

I am not conflating genocide to racial equality, I'm saying genocide is almost certainly necessary for any equality between humans and elves to eventually occur. There can be no equality for the Dalish until they have land; a nation-state, a safe place where they can practice their culture. That is just a fact. All the decent, livable land is currently occupied by humans, also just a fact.

The only conclusion is that, for equality to occur, humans have to move willingly or be destroyed. Either you support equality between the races and accept that to make an omelette you have to break a few heads, or you support the rights of the humans to keep living where they're living, and justify the extinction of the Dalish with "Oh well, they were the minority, so who cares?"

Those are your options. Pick one.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 juin 2013 - 04:32 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Why couldn't they have equality while living along side humans.