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[WhiteKnyght]

The way the writers put it: Saren's plan was always to use the Conduit to sneak onto the Citadel while the Geth attacked as a distraction so he could sneak up to the tower and open the Citadel Relay without C-Sec interfering.

But the thing is. The Conduit takes you to a park in the Presidium that Saren could have easily went to, had he not made himself public enemy #1 during his search for the Conduit. Instead of attacking Eden Prime, Saren could have simply waited at the park next to the Relay monument, let the Geth attack as planned, then during the Chaos, just slip up there and let the Reapers in.

So Saren's needless search for the conduit was what led to his downfall. It got Shepard involved, it made him a fugitive, it got his base on Virmire and all of its assets destroyed, and it made the Council more prepared for the Geth attack than they would have been.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 juin 2013 - 02:45 .

[capn233]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

But the thing is. The Conduit takes you to a park in the Presidium that Saren could have easily went to, had he not made himself public enemy #1 during his search for the Conduit. Instead of attacking Eden Prime, Saren could have simply waited at the park next to the Relay monument, let the Geth attack as planned, then during the Chaos, just slip up there and let the Reapers in.

It is stated that the Citadel's only real defense is closing the arms.  Citadel control is well guarded, which is why a single person, even a Spectre, would have difficulty taking it by himself.  The reason he needed the Conduit was to get his first wave of Geth onto the station so he could take the control room and keep the arms open until Sovereign got inside, then close them to prevent counter attack.

[WhiteKnyght]

capn233 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

But the thing is. The Conduit takes you to a park in the Presidium that Saren could have easily went to, had he not made himself public enemy #1 during his search for the Conduit. Instead of attacking Eden Prime, Saren could have simply waited at the park next to the Relay monument, let the Geth attack as planned, then during the Chaos, just slip up there and let the Reapers in.

It is stated that the Citadel's only real defense is closing the arms.  Citadel control is well guarded, which is why a single person, even a Spectre, would have difficulty taking it by himself.  The reason he needed the Conduit was to get his first wave of Geth onto the station so he could take the control room and keep the arms open until Sovereign got inside, then close them to prevent counter attack.

He wouldn't have needed to do that for these simple reasons.

1. When he did attack the Citadel, they were braced for the attack. If he hadn't alerted anyone to what he was doing, the Geth and Sovereign could have completely blindsided them and been all over the Citadel before they knew what was happening. Well before they could close the arms.

2. Saren wouldn't need to 'take' the control room, because as a Spectre, they wouldn't see him as a threat. He could just say that he's there to make sure the council is safe, and when they're not looking, gun everyone down(Saren killed more people on Camala than would be guarding the Tower) and open the relay.

3. He also could have indoctrinated one or all of the council and saved himself the trouble. He could have presented Sovereign to them as a discovery, let them go aboard, and they come out as a pack of brainwashed nuts who open the Relay at his behest.

[capn233]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He wouldn't have needed to do that for these simple reasons.

1. When he did attack the Citadel, they were braced for the attack. If he hadn't alerted anyone to what he was doing, the Geth and Sovereign could have completely blindsided them and been all over the Citadel before they knew what was happening. Well before they could close the arms.

2. Saren wouldn't need to 'take' the control room, because as a Spectre, they wouldn't see him as a threat. He could just say that he's there to make sure the council is safe, and when they're not looking, gun everyone down(Saren killed more people on Camala than would be guarding the Tower) and open the relay.

3. He also could have indoctrinated one or all of the council and saved himself the trouble. He could have presented Sovereign to them as a discovery, let them go aboard, and they come out as a pack of brainwashed nuts who open the Relay at his behest.

I think you are altering the story with some of these assumptions.

1. The Citadel already has a standing patrol that is part of the Citadel Fleet.  Citadel Control is already the most guarded part of the Citadel.  And C-Sec would be ready to respond to anyone attacking control.  Especially if Saren tried to take it by himself.  Going in there by himself increases the chance of failure, and Sovereign has been patiently waiting for a plan that maximizes his chance of success.  Sending in one agent to try to take and hold Control is a risky plan.

2. What business does Saren have there?  We don't even know that random Spectres are allowed in Control.  Then once he starts killing them he is clearly hostile.  He would then have to hold it against the C-Sec response (even if he magically beat all resistance there in the first place).  Sovereign cannot jump in system and teleport into the Citadel.  We know they are concerned about the timing because in the plan they carry out, Saren and the Geth already have taken the Control Room before Sovereign jumps in system.  It is too foolish to try it with a single agent.  The number of people he killed on Camala is irrelevant since he wasn't interested in holding any location against an armed response, and had the luxury of being able to blow the refinery.

3. No.  It was not practical to indoctrinate anyone on the Citadel.  There aren't a bunch of Reaper artifacts laying around.  If there were it would alert people to their presence.  Essentially everyone indoctrinated in ME1 was indoctrinated by Sovereign (a plot point), and you aren't going to get Sovereign onto the Citadel.

It is not practical for Saren (or likely any agent) to single-handedly take control of the Citadel.  Sovereign had been formulating a plan for many years by ME1 (implied that perhaps since Rachni Wars, at least in ME1).  If it was as simple as a single agent, he would have done it before the game even started.

edit: there are a lot of old threads on this topic I think.

Modifié par capn233, 05 juin 2013 - 01:47 .

[WhiteKnyght]

capn233 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He wouldn't have needed to do that for these simple reasons.

1. When he did attack the Citadel, they were braced for the attack. If he hadn't alerted anyone to what he was doing, the Geth and Sovereign could have completely blindsided them and been all over the Citadel before they knew what was happening. Well before they could close the arms.

2. Saren wouldn't need to 'take' the control room, because as a Spectre, they wouldn't see him as a threat. He could just say that he's there to make sure the council is safe, and when they're not looking, gun everyone down(Saren killed more people on Camala than would be guarding the Tower) and open the relay.

3. He also could have indoctrinated one or all of the council and saved himself the trouble. He could have presented Sovereign to them as a discovery, let them go aboard, and they come out as a pack of brainwashed nuts who open the Relay at his behest.

I think you are altering the story with some of these assumptions.

1. The Citadel already has a standing patrol that is part of the Citadel Fleet.  Citadel Control is already the most guarded part of the Citadel.  And C-Sec would be ready to respond to anyone attacking control.  Especially if Saren tried to take it by himself.  Going in there by himself increases the chance of failure, and Sovereign has been patiently waiting for a plan that maximizes his chance of success.  Sending in one agent to try to take and hold Control is a risky plan.

2. What business does Saren have there?  We don't even know that random Spectres are allowed in Control.  Then once he starts killing them he is clearly hostile.  He would then have to hold it against the C-Sec response (even if he magically beat all resistance there in the first place).  Sovereign cannot jump in system and teleport into the Citadel.  We know they are concerned about the timing because in the plan they carry out, Saren and the Geth already have taken the Control Room before Sovereign jumps in system.  It is too foolish to try it with a single agent.  The number of people he killed on Camala is irrelevant since he wasn't interested in holding any location against an armed response, and had the luxury of being able to blow the refinery.

3. No.  It was not practical to indoctrinate anyone on the Citadel.  There aren't a bunch of Reaper artifacts laying around.  If there were it would alert people to their presence.  Essentially everyone indoctrinated in ME1 was indoctrinated by Sovereign (a plot point), and you aren't going to get Sovereign onto the Citadel.

It is not practical for Saren (or likely any agent) to single-handedly take control of the Citadel.  Sovereign had been formulating a plan for many years by ME1 (implied that perhaps since Rachni Wars, at least in ME1).  If it was as simple as a single agent, he would have done it before the game even started.

edit: there are a lot of old threads on this topic I think.

1. The Citadel fleet got decimated by the Geth when they were actually prepared for the assault. Even the Councilors believed they were more than ready when they refused to let Shepard  go to Ilos. But they were wrong and if you don't let the fifth fleet save the council, the Standing fleets gets all but wiped out. If they had been hit by a surprise attack, it would be a lot worse(it's common logic that a surprise attack works better than a direct offensive because it catches your enemy off guard and unprepared.)

2. "What business does Saren have there"? Are you serious? I answered that in the very comment you're asking about. Saren would lie and say he is there to protect the council, just like Ashley/Kaidan did in ME3. Spectres are top agents who answer only to the council, so it's not unreasonable that they play secret service when need be. And C-Sec can't tell them what to do or where they can't go, only the council can do that, and they loved Saren so much before Shepard proved him a snake that they'd welcome him as their bodyguard. 

As for Saren not standing a chance against C-Sec, none of them would expect someone who is an honored and trusted agent to attack them from behind. Also Saren has more to use than a gun. He's got Reaper tech implants that enhance his performance greatly, on top of giving him biotic abilities on par with the Asari(Paul Grayson had the same implants and abilities and was able to take out an entire ship full of armed Turian soldiers by catching them off guard. Proof of concept)

3. Are you serious? It's never not practical to indoctrinate someone. The purpose of indoctrination is to create double agents for the Reapers. And close proximity to any Reaper tech(not just sovereign) that isn't properly shielded can cause it(people in ME1's side missions got indoctrinated just by digging up Dragon's Teeth. They had no contact with Sovereign.). It's subtle and practically unnoticable. And Saren's body is loaded with Reaper tech. He could probably indoctrinate a councilor just by handing in a report in person(rapid indoctrination).

[caradoc2000]

Not surprisingly, this has been discussed in several threads both here and the old Bioware forums.

One of the more plausible explanations was that Saren (like the PC) did not know what the conduit was until he reached Ilos. For all he knew it could have been a boobytrap or a failsafe installed by the Protheans.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 05 juin 2013 - 03:53 .

[capn233]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. The Citadel fleet got decimated by the Geth when they were actually prepared for the assault. Even the Councilors believed they were more than ready when they refused to let Shepard  go to Ilos. But they were wrong and if you don't let the fifth fleet save the council, the Standing fleets gets all but wiped out. If they had been hit by a surprise attack, it would be a lot worse(it's common logic that a surprise attack works better than a direct offensive because it catches your enemy off guard and unprepared.)

2. "What business does Saren have there"? Are you serious? I answered that in the very comment you're asking about. Saren would lie and say he is there to protect the council, just like Ashley/Kaidan did in ME3. Spectres are top agents who answer only to the council, so it's not unreasonable that they play secret service when need be. And C-Sec can't tell them what to do or where they can't go, only the council can do that, and they loved Saren so much before Shepard proved him a snake that they'd welcome him as their bodyguard. 

As for Saren not standing a chance against C-Sec, none of them would expect someone who is an honored and trusted agent to attack them from behind. Also Saren has more to use than a gun. He's got Reaper tech implants that enhance his performance greatly, on top of giving him biotic abilities on par with the Asari(Paul Grayson had the same implants and abilities and was able to take out an entire ship full of armed Turian soldiers by catching them off guard. Proof of concept)

3. Are you serious? It's never not practical to indoctrinate someone. The purpose of indoctrination is to create double agents for the Reapers. And close proximity to any Reaper tech(not just sovereign) that isn't properly shielded can cause it(people in ME1's side missions got indoctrinated just by digging up Dragon's Teeth. They had no contact with Sovereign.). It's subtle and practically unnoticable. And Saren's body is loaded with Reaper tech. He could probably indoctrinate a councilor just by handing in a report in person(rapid indoctrination).

You have to make assumptions that contradict plot points and information in universe to make this one man assault work.

1. The Fleet isn't the most important point there.  It is closing the Citadel arms.  If they are closed before Sovereign makes it inside he is stuck and cannot take control of the Citadel to determine what the sabotage was and how to reverse it.  It doesn't even matter if Sovereign himself is a match for the patrol by himself, if he is stuck outside the arms all he did is present himself as a threat to the Citadel.  It is described as impenetrable with the arms shut, he wouldn't get in.

The main issue is you seem to think there wasn't any security on or around the Citadel prior to them taking Saren seriously, which was is false.  Demonstrated by discussion about Control, standing fleet, C-sec.  To make the assumption that security was so lax that one agent could take it, you then are stating that Saren was an idiot for not realizing it, Sovereign was an idiot for not realizing it after learning about it through Saren, the council and C-Sec are idiots for not protecting the only defense the Citadel has, etc.  So if you want to claim that everyone in universe is an idiot and you were smart to realize this plan would work, despite having incomplete information, go ahead.

2. I'm very serious.  The player never goes to Citadel Control (where they operate the arms, not the Council Chambers) in any of the games. You do not have any proof that Saren has access.  Even if he can get in with some absurd reason (which makes no sense since the Council isn't in Control), he still has to manage to kill all the security there himself, and hold it until Sovereign gets into the station.

What are you on about with Saren vs C-Sec?  After he kills everyone in the control room it won't matter if he was respected, he is clearly a thread and a criminal.  He has to hold Control from that point until Sovereign arrives through the Widow relay until he makes it to the Citadel.  Sovereign cannot arrive in system before Saren takes Control or the arms will start to close before Saren can intervene.

Saren has no Reaper implants until after Virmire.

3. Not believable.  Saren doesn't have implants until after he has doubts from his conversation with Shepard on Virmire.  So that is debunked.  Sovereign is the main source of indoctrination for Saren, Benezia and her staff.  Yes, Dragon's Teeth did indoctrinate some people on side missions, but it is not believable that they could simply be brought into the Citadel and used to indoctrinate anyone important, least of all the Councilors.  "Oh let me just leave this random artifact here, don't pay attention to it."  Indoctrination isn't instant.  And if staff on the Citadel start to behave oddly all that will do is arouse suspicion and increase the risk of discovery of the Reapers.  It is one thing for a random mining team to find an artifact on an uncharted world.  It is another to simply bring them to the Citadel and leave them in the open.

[Forst1999]

I don't think he needed the conduit to get a force on the Citadel strong enough to take Citadel control. He got lots of Geth to Noveria, which has a tighter security than the Citadel. He had lot's of indoctrinated Asari commandos, Krogan warlords following him, as well sd several assassins and hired criminals. And he could have gotten more important persons on his side like he did with Benezia. Bring one or two trusting people to Sovereign at a time. Before his little stunt on Eden Prime, he could have gotten much support this way. Seizing Citadel control and holding the arms open long enough for Sovereign would have required some planning, but would have been far easier than his actual course of action.
The only explanation that doesn't make Saren and Sovereign idiots and the plot of ME1 utterly stupid is what caradoc2000 mentioned: Saren did not know what the Conduit was until he was forced to use it. Maybe he knew before Ilos, but definitly not before Eden Prime.
So he had to go the complicated, risky route to find out what exactly the Protheans did. Understandable caution, but the only thing that gave anyone a chance to do something against him. I guess the moral of ME1 is that curiousity kill the cat(-resembling alien and his robo-squid master).