137 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KainD wrote...

I understand that every free mage can cause mass murder and cataclysm. 
I call templars evil and think that mages should be free. 
Simple.

Even knowing that they're a tiny minority with the power to cause huge suffering to the populace? Even knowing that the mages themselves will almost certainly have to die if they go abomination, and that this is easier to accomplish with minimal collateral damage in the Circle? Even knowing that to the extent that there's any work done to make them less likely to turn, it's in the Circle, under the Templars and First Enchanters?

If you prioritize freedom over that, fine. Just know that the Templars have different priorities, and that except in Ser Alrik's case it's a little oversimplified to call them evil for trying to protect others.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 04 juin 2013 - 10:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

KainD wrote...

I understand that every free mage can cause mass murder and cataclysm. 
I call templars evil and think that mages should be free. 
Simple.

Thank heavens, someone who's aware of how foolish letting mages free is but are apathetic to it. Least you're admitting to it rather than salvaging excuses such as "it's the right thing" or what say you.

[Nightdragon8]

its a grey topic thats why the confict is so vast.

and really Bethany's and Avalines Banter is pretty much the key to all of this.

You have alot of restrant Bethany
For a mage?
Could say for a Hawke but yes.
You have a sword why aren't you out killing someone.
Fair point, but I can put my sword down
I wish I could believe me I have tried.

But I would have said. You know how to kill someone bare handed why aren't you out killing people. Cuase in reality you don't "need" swords or guns to kill people you can easily kill people with your hands. But the major issue seems to be more of "the ease" of being able to kill people, While Aviline would have to kill people 1 at a time. Beath can do a whole crowd of people at a time.

Which honestly tells me that in reality they need to do some research into Area defensive spells to prevent such things from occurring.

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Thank heavens, someone who's aware of how foolish letting mages free is but are apathetic to it. Least you're admitting to it rather than salvaging excuses such as "it's the right thing" or what say you.

I didn't say it's foolish. I just have a priority freedom over security. It's the right thing for me personally, but different people, different priorities, so it's subjective and there is no universal right way. 

[Plaintiff]

 One certainly can, and one does. Often.

[Nole]

If you read Asunder, you can certainly tell that Bioware shows the Templars as the main villains of Thedas, lol.

[Gileadan]

Of course one can simply call templars evil.
Some people like their world simple.

[The_FenixV]

“There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it.”

[LobselVith8]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not.  

You mean, like the mass murder that Meredith can invoke against an entire population of people for something they didn't do, because she has religious authority over mages as a templar, and her role as Knight-Commander gave her the legal right to murder hundreds of people because she argued that the civilians of Kirkwall would demand their deaths?

People who disagree with the position held by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars already know that mages can be dangerous; however, having mages under the authority of a religious organization that vilifies magic and subjugates mages isn't the solution. The Chantry controlled Circles have lead to abuses against mages by morally bankrupt templars, to suicide by many mages who fell to despair living in the Circle Tower, and at least two Circles were anulled for erroneous reasons - with the Circle of Kirkwall being condemned for the actions of one man, and the Circle of Rivain being anulled by foreign templars who saw seers interacting with their families outside the Circle.

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...
edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this  

I'm under no illusions that either side is going to each a consensus on this matter, no matter how long your post was.

[Sontemuka]

They're not evil, I understand what the templars do, but that´s not a valid argument to lock up massively to the mages. The problem here is the society, and the Chantry (mostly). Thinking and blaming the mages by simply "being bad or a possibly danger" is not a good thing. The kids who manifest a little of magic are abandoned for their families (like Wynne´s case) and dragged away by the templars, to a place wich the mages can't leave and be free like any normal person. (most of them at least).

Everyone, every single person have access to a knife, so we must lock them all because randomly someone commits a murder?

Modifié par Sontemuka, 05 juin 2013 - 06:54 .

[BigEvil]

garrusfan1 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Spirits can also possess trees, yet I don't see the Chantry burning down all the forests.

and dead bodies 

Given that, I wonder why cremation isn't more widespread in Thedas. Apart from Andraste's ashes I can't recall anyone else bringing it up. Maybe it is and just hasn't been mentioned.

[n7stormrunner]

templars are evil. see I can.

now that I done with that, they probably aren't all evil but look at da 2 to see what happens when one of the crazy ones get in charge. it took a major group of blood mages in a surprise attack to do that in da: o... and they were in a circle so it seems that they don't work but so well in the first place.

[GodWood]

KainD wrote...
I didn't say it's foolish. I just have a priority freedom over security. It's the right thing for me personally, but different people, different priorities, so it's subjective and there is no universal right way. 

Indeed it is subjective and one can hide behind that incredibly weak defence.

OR

You can make a worth while contribution to the discussion by explaining why freedom is more valuable than security, why the pros of mage freedom outweigh the cons and why you believe freedom to be, in of itself a valuable thing.

[IanPolaris]

BigEvil wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Spirits can also possess trees, yet I don't see the Chantry burning down all the forests.

and dead bodies 

Given that, I wonder why cremation isn't more widespread in Thedas. Apart from Andraste's ashes I can't recall anyone else bringing it up. Maybe it is and just hasn't been mentioned.

The dead of Redcliff are cremated.  You see that after you resolve the Conner Quest in DAO.

-Polaris

[Fredward]

The damage mages can inflict when they go bat**** is outweighed by the GOOD they can do when they're not going bat****. Free mages mean "magic healing" for elves who get their legs crushed between boats and then get tossed in a alley. Free mages mean helping with crops, construction, education (cuz most mages seem waaaay more literate than the average Fereldan turnip), defense, technological/magical advancement to make everything better for everyone ever. There is oh so much arm flailing about what happens when mages snap but with a system where mages are educated properly, go through their Harrowing and pass this is lessened. By like a lot. The majority (if not ALL) of the trained mages we have seen turn into abominations were under physical threat FROM Templars! Most mundanes would not be crazy enough to threaten a mage and even if they did it's unlikely the mage would actually feel threatened enough to turn to a demon. In the Circle's mages are restricted to what they're even allowed to study, the Chantry is stifling progress by imprisoning the most learned populace of Thedas. Also when mages get possessed they might as well die, they have a really important self preservation stake in NOT letting that happen. Which is why I don't think we've ever heard about an evil Tevinter abomination even though the society is ruled by mages but whatevs.

Giving mages freedom won't cause society to ****ing implode. Yes there will be the ones who go all Titus on everyone but they'll be the exception not the rule. You can't imprison an entire segment of a population for a "defect" they had no role in and something that might happen. It's wrong.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The damage mages can inflict when they go bat**** is outweighed by the GOOD they can do when they're not going bat****. 

Or you can say it the other way around - no amount of good can repair the damage made when a mage goes bat*** crazy and inferno the whole town. See, it works as well.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The majority (if not ALL) of the trained mages we have seen turn into abominatins were under physical threat from Templars 

Uldred wasn't. Quentin wasn't. Grace (if you gave her to the Circle) really wasn't as well. That's three off the top of my head.

I'm being devil's advocate here. Personally, I think that both sides are equally guilty of using their status to do bad things.

Modifié par mrufka_z, 05 juin 2013 - 10:31 .

[Fredward]

mrufka_z wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The damage mages can inflict when they go bat**** is outweighed by the GOOD they can do when they're not going bat****. 

Or you can say it the other way around - no amount of good can repair the damage made when a mage goes bat*** crazy and inferno the whole town. See, it works as well.

Not really. Just one village after all. Probably had no one in it who was interesting anyway. :innocent:

[KainD]

GodWood wrote...
You can make a worth while contribution to the discussion by explaining why freedom is more valuable than security, why the pros of mage freedom outweigh the cons and why you believe freedom to be, in of itself a valuable thing.

Because that's how I feel. It's not a weak argument, every person has a different outlook on life and life values, it's not universal, not up for a debate, it's each persons opinion.

There was this topic once:

MartialArtsMaster wrote...

The people on this board arguing over whether the Mages are right or the Templars are right will ultimately be arguing FOREVER. It ultimately isn't about our beliefs or our conclusions (side with the mages or the Templars?). The real problem is our premises/assumptions/starting points by which we use to interpret the world are radically different. Thought is composed of multiple elements: purposes, questions, assumptions, point of view, information, concepts, inferences/conclusions, and implications/consequences.

This story not only presents people who can't agree on whether or not certain people's actions are ethical or unethical, they can't even agree on what unethical behavior or ethical behavior would look like!

Modifié par KainD, 05 juin 2013 - 11:19 .

[ComfortablyNumb]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

mrufka_z wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The damage mages can inflict when they go bat**** is outweighed by the GOOD they can do when they're not going bat****. 

Or you can say it the other way around - no amount of good can repair the damage made when a mage goes bat*** crazy and inferno the whole town. See, it works as well.

Not really. Just one village after all. Probably had no one in it who was interesting anyway. :innocent:

And who would miss few mages locked up in some remote tower? 

See, I can play this game as well...  

[Kalas Magnus]

The_FenixV wrote...

“There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it.”

nice

[MisterJB]

BigEvil wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Spirits can also possess trees, yet I don't see the Chantry burning down all the forests.

and dead bodies 

Given that, I wonder why cremation isn't more widespread in Thedas. Apart from Andraste's ashes I can't recall anyone else bringing it up. Maybe it is and just hasn't been mentioned.

It has been rarely mentioned ingame but it's part of the lore. Cremation is the costumatory funeral rites of every Andrastian nation in Thedas with the exception of Nevarra who bury their dead. Both to emulate Andraste and to prevent corpse possessions.
Nevarra's costumes differ due to a cult started by a Tevinter mage which leads me to believe there is some plan there to raise an army of nevarran dead if Tevinter requires it.

[Tenshi]

WittingEight65 wrote...

If you read Asunder, you can certainly tell that Bioware shows the Templars as the main villains of Thedas, lol.

oh i just started today, im at the part where templars beated up the mage girl and puted her in the cell 

thats like 10 pages in.. 
lets see it if will change my opinion..

[GodWood]

KainD wrote...

GodWood wrote...
You can make a worth while contribution to the discussion by explaining why freedom is more valuable than security, why the pros of mage freedom outweigh the cons and why you believe freedom to be, in of itself a valuable thing.

Because that's how I feel. It's not a weak argument.

If your argument can only be defended by saying "that's how I feel" then it is a weak argument.

[garrusfan1]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

she picked jowan who was a blood mage and was hired to kill arl eamon I am talking about an accomplished mage that is approved by an agency that would give them a license to teach magic not some random mage that is an apprentice and was hired to kill the childs father

I don't see how this invalidates my point. An assassin can get in without this system, and what then? How much difference do you think having an accomplished, non-blood-using mage makes when the kid gets desparate enough?* A large part of the argument for the Circles is that in the event of a failure where a kid goes abomination, the new abomination is at least surrounded by Templars.

*All Isolde wanted Connor to learn was how to not get posessed or found out anyway. Say what you will about Jowan, he never gets posessed himself and he stays under Eamon's nose.

sweet mother of okay look they would have an agency you would go to where they would have people approved by a certain officail group that had them go through training to teach them and yes are there ways something could go wrong yes but look at why the whole connor thing happened it was because issolde didn't want connor to go to the circle so she hired jowan who she knew nothing about vesides he was a mage. the circle doesn't really work well either. the mages who escape will do anything not to come back so they get desperate and will do anything not to go back. that isn't just mages and the circle that is anytime people run from something horrible. no system is full proof but at least I will look for an alternative and my idea is a good one. so they would need to go to an agency that was approved by whoever will deal with mage education and they would let you have an approved tutor. or the child could go to a school and the family could go with them so they could live with them in a house nearby. so most of my bases are covered

Except for the base I raise, in which mages in the population are free to go abomination. I think that's a more major base to cover than making sure kids aren't taken from their families, given that one abomination can keep creating orphans until it is stopped. Under your solution, who knows when that will be? Whatever the Circle's flaws, and I'm not denying there are some, the problem stops reasonably quickly in most cases.

Once a mage has proven himself minimal risk, maybe you can let him mingle. Fine. The problem is those mages who have not proven themselves minimal risks. When you argue to give them to the Chantry as a brother, I really think that's beside the point of my objections: what happens to the other brothers if something goes wrong? When you argue to give them a country of their own, where they can't hurt anyone else, what you're missing is that that's essentially the idea of the Circle, except that there are guards to make sure they don't leave.

Then you're missing the problem of magical crime. That by itself would probably be a minor enough problem, unless the mages decided to take over the country. And who could stop them if they did, except the Templars? The problem is that this solution, which you find morally reprehensible, solves or mitigates all three problems. That is the main idea of anyone who argues that the Circle is morally justifiable, that it solves three problems at once, and that these three problems are more severe than the pain caused when a family has its child taken. Especially when one takes into account the fact that mages are a minority. More children will grow up safe for the taking of these children.

it solves them by impisoning a certain group. also if you want to get technical anyone who is intelligent and can think for themselves should be imprisoned in real life since they can start a revolution and hurt the government. hey it solves the problem look at the wonderful nations like north korea they imprison anyone who they consider a threat for the sake of the country since a revolution will cause harm to the people. or kill everyone inteligent and brainwash the rest like pol pot. see how wonderful places that imprison or kill people for the so called greater good. that is what dictatorships always do.
 
you can only treat a group so bad and with such hatred before they rebel. You can use the sacrifice for the greater good argument for anything . mage sympathers get imprisoned too since they will harbor mages that can turn into abominations and kill everyone. the templars have unlimited power as long as they can say it involes mages in some way. you can say some mages would turn into abominations and that my idea wouldn't work since some would do turn into abominations but what about what already happens there is problems with the current system there will be problems with any system non will be perfect. but at least I don't say imprison a portion of the population and when they rebel blame them and... you know what it is pointless arguing with someone who thinks like that