137 réponses à ce sujet

[Tenshi]

@above
giving them their own country? that would be even worse.. lol, i can almost foresee how few months later the armies of pride demons and abominations would race out of there ;-D

also dont bring korea into this.. korea is a joke.

[KainD]

GodWood wrote...
If your argument can only be defended by saying "that's how I feel" then it is a weak argument.

Argument on which whole societies laws and morality systems have been built. Yes weak indeed. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Except for the base I raise, in which mages in the population are free to go abomination. I think that's a more major base to cover than making sure kids aren't taken from their families, given that one abomination can keep creating orphans until it is stopped. Under your solution, who knows when that will be? Whatever the Circle's flaws, and I'm not denying there are some, the problem stops reasonably quickly in most cases.

Once a mage has proven himself minimal risk, maybe you can let him mingle. Fine. The problem is those mages who have not proven themselves minimal risks. When you argue to give them to the Chantry as a brother, I really think that's beside the point of my objections: what happens to the other brothers if something goes wrong? When you argue to give them a country of their own, where they can't hurt anyone else, what you're missing is that that's essentially the idea of the Circle, except that there are guards to make sure they don't leave.

Then you're missing the problem of magical crime. That by itself would probably be a minor enough problem, unless the mages decided to take over the country. And who could stop them if they did, except the Templars? The problem is that this solution, which you find morally reprehensible, solves or mitigates all three problems. That is the main idea of anyone who argues that the Circle is morally justifiable, that it solves three problems at once, and that these three problems are more severe than the pain caused when a family has its child taken. Especially when one takes into account the fact that mages are a minority. More children will grow up safe for the taking of these children.

it solves them by impisoning a certain group. also if you want to get technical anyone who is intelligent and can think for themselves should be imprisoned in real life since they can start a revolution and hurt the government. hey it solves the problem look at the wonderful nations like north korea they imprison anyone who they consider a threat for the sake of the country since a revolution will cause harm to the people. or kill everyone inteligent and brainwash the rest like pol pot. see how wonderful places that imprison or kill people for the so called greater good. that is what dictatorships always do.

I'm not arguing to imprison everyone intelligent, since that doesn't mean they can spontaneously turn into a ravening monster capable of soloing a city. I really wish pro-mages would stop using that kind of strawman.

you can only treat a group so bad and with such hatred before they rebel. You can use the sacrifice for the greater good argument for anything . mage sympathers get imprisoned too since they will harbor mages that can turn into abominations and kill everyone.

Do you mean punishing people for holding opinions, or for acting on them despite the law? The former is both evil and stupid, the latter can be justified. Isolde, for instance, should have been punished for her actions. Possibly executed, since while I don't like capital punishment she was arguably an accessory to mass-murder, and I don't think Thedas does that whole "life without parole" thing. Compare that to the Starkhaven noble who wrote a letter of protest to the Grand Cleric, and got back a politely worded reluctant defense of the Circle system on the grounds that the priest can't think of any better way to handle mages.

the templars have unlimited power as long as they can say it involes mages in some way.

Nobody is arguing that Templars should have unlimited power. Nobody. They should have the power to hold mages, escort mages from Circle to Circle, and to investigate claims of magic. That's it. To say that I want them to have anything else is a misstatement, and to argue against me based on it is illogical.

you can say some mages would turn into abominations and that my idea wouldn't work since some would do turn into abominations but what about what already happens there is problems with the current system there will be problems with any system non will be perfect.

No system is perfectly safe. Therefore, you might as well put lesser effort into safety than freedom. Do I understand that argument? If not, could you please give a better summary?

but at least I don't say imprison a portion of the population and when they rebel blame them and... you know what it is pointless arguing with someone who thinks like that

Maybe I've just put more thought into this, due to having argued this position for longer than I've kept track of?

KainD wrote...

GodWood wrote...
If your argument can only be defended by saying "that's how I feel" then it is a weak argument.

Argument on which whole societies laws and morality systems have been built. Yes weak indeed. 

While I have no idea which side of the debate either of you is arguing, I'd like to point out that KainD's point doesn't really invalidate GodWood's.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 06:00 .

[LobselVith8]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

@above
giving them their own country? that would be even worse.. lol, i can almost foresee how few months later the armies of pride demons and abominations would race out of there ;-D 

Arlathan was said to be an entire kingdom of mages. The Dales was a nation with elven mages living alongside non-mages. The Dalish clans have mages who aren't controlled by templars. The Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders have mages living with non-mages. Even the morally bankrupt society of Haven had mages living with non-mages for 900 years.

In fact, the Chantry scholar written codex on abominations notes that abominations are actually rare.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KainD wrote...

GodWood wrote...
If your argument can only be defended by saying "that's how I feel" then it is a weak argument.

Argument on which whole societies laws and morality systems have been built. Yes weak indeed. 

A society build up around freedom is called anarchy, and it is no longer a society.... All society is build up around control. Sure, some of them might throw around fancy words like freedom, and democracy, and all manners of nice words, but by the end of the day, all society depends on control of the people.

[IceHawk-181]

Or you could read Hobbes and realize that society is not about control but about contractual obligations...in short, security is a decision to restrict one's own freedom in assurance that others will as well.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Can I please kill both sides?That would make me so HAPPY!

[dragonflight288]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Can I please kill both sides?That would make me so HAPPY!

Then what would you do about mages being born? You can't stop people from procreating and having children. Cullen says it well, every day a mage is born, and a few years later are discovered as they come into their power.

And as long as mages exist then there will always exist a faction of people who fear them and hate them for being what they are. If it's not the templars and the chantry, then it would be someone else, unless you're in a society like the Dalish who believe that at one time every elf was a mage. Then you have xenophobes for everyone who isn't a dalish elf.

[Sutamina]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Can I please kill both sides?That would make me so HAPPY!

Might be possible if you get to side with the Qunari

[GodWood]

KainD wrote...

GodWood wrote...
If your argument can only be defended by saying "that's how I feel" then it is a weak argument.

Argument on which whole societies laws and morality systems have been built. Yes weak indeed. 

No, societies have built themselves on mixtures of freedom and security with proper argument and discussion on each individual topic to determine how much freedom and security is most desirable.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juin 2013 - 07:57 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Who cares about that crap, I'm gonna burn down all the Chantries then kill the Divine as a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods and become one with the dragon-blooded and punch out the Maker when I plunder the Fade and become the new ruler of Thedas.




PS: -10 points, OP. You didn't even put in any effort.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...
one cannot simply cal templars evil guys and..

I can.

EVIL GUYS.
EVIL GUYS.
EVIL GUYS.

[dragonflight288]

lol

[KainD]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A society build up around freedom is called anarchy, and it is no longer a society.... 

It is a society, and one that I would like to be a part of, but I don't really have that opportunity. 

[KainD]

GodWood wrote...
No, societies have built themselves on mixtures of freedom and security with proper argument and discussion on each individual topic to determine how much freedom and security is most desirable.

I was talking about the ''that's how I feel'', and that's still the case, no matter how society is built, you said it yourself ''most desirable''. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 juin 2013 - 03:20 .

[mk123]

On one hand, it's true that all it takes for disaster is for one mage to have one bad day, and I can't really think of any way to prevent that. On the other hand, the system at the moment puts too much pressure on mages, making it more likely that they will be driven to desperate acts.

[GodWood]

KainD wrote...
no matter how society is built, you said it yourself ''most desirable''. 

The most desirable for as many as possible.
Something which they determine through discussion and compromise, not by stating what they want and proceeding to avoid any productive discussion or actions.

You're never going to get your anarchist society by moping in the corner, you have to actively persuade others and explain why such a system is better than the current one.

mk123 wrote...
On the other hand, the system at the moment puts too much pressure on mages, making it more likely that they will be driven to desperate acts.

Because living in a safe, secure tower with free food, education, protection and companionship is far more stressful than living under the tyranny of feudalism with the constant threat of bandits, persecution, corrupt lords, poverty and so on.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juin 2013 - 05:10 .

[Kimarous]

I do not consider templars evil, and this coming from a mage sympathizer. The problem stems more from mindset - they need to POLICE the mages, not IMPRISON them. An analogy: if the mages are Superman, then templars should be Batman - the badass normals with kryptonite tucked away for the worst possible times - not the tyrannical Lex Luthor, ever seeking to destroy them.

[Reaverwind]

BouncyFrag wrote...

I don't have the link but I recall a dev/writer posted that things were a bit overdone in DA2 with all the batpoop crazy mages and the plot in general. The more DA3 stands on its own without the baggage from DA2, the better.

DA2 was nothing more than pick your flavor of crazy. Too bad there wasn't a kill 'em all and let [insert deity/deities here] sort 'em out. I really would have loved that option.

[Dova]

Sutamina wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Can I please kill both sides?That would make me so HAPPY!

Might be possible if you get to side with the Qunari

I'd much rather submit to the Qun then deal with Templars and Mages. Mages are crazy and dangerous and will switch to blood magic to be free when in reality Fenris has an amazing strong point where they just want to be magisters. But then the Templars abuse their power over the mages so the Mages have a reason to switch to blood magic. 
I just wanna be like
http://bit.ly/18g2yRf

[KainD]

GodWood wrote...
The most desirable for as many as possible. 
Something which they determine through discussion and compromise, not by stating what they want and proceeding to avoid any productive discussion or actions.

It's only done through brainwashing, programming and nurture. There is nothing inherently better about one system than the other, there is no rational point about it. 

[Xilizhra]

Because living in a safe, secure tower with free food, education, protection and companionship is far more stressful than living under the tyranny of feudalism with the constant threat of bandits, persecution, corrupt lords, poverty and so on.

Go around and ask various random people around Thedas if they want to be a Circle mage. I doubt that many would say yes.

[KainD]

EntropicAngel wrote...
That's untrue, Kain. It's debatable: does the good of the individual outweigh the good of the people? 

First, people are made of individuals. 
Second, what people consider good is the result of their nurture and ideas that they were made to believe.