137 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

GodWood wrote...

Because living in a safe, secure tower with free food, education, protection and companionship is far more stressful than living under the tyranny of feudalism with the constant threat of bandits, persecution, corrupt lords, poverty and so on.

You forgot the part where they are forcibly taken from their families, never allowed to leave the tower in most cases, get lobotomized if they 'aren't strong enough' and are watched 24/7 by drug addicts.

[TexasToast712]

 I see the need of the Templar order and support them, however, I also believe that mages need better equality. I still feel the templar order is a necessity. We have all seen what can happen if mages are left COMPLETELY unchecked.

[EcreipRellim]

Mundanes Vs Mages..........Mages win

[LobselVith8]

TexasToast712 wrote...

I see the need of the Templar order and support them, however, I also believe that mages need better equality. I still feel the templar order is a necessity. We have all seen what can happen if mages are left COMPLETELY unchecked.

You mean the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini being examples of mages who weren't controlled by the templars?

[WhiteKnyght]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not. 

edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this 

A lunatic with a weapon can cause mass murder too(just watch the news, it happens almost every month now). That doesn't mean we need to imprison and spy on all normal people.

Templars have imprisoned and persecuted blameless people for a thousand years just because they think their absentee god wants them to.

The flaw in their logic is that, if the Maker is real and is some all knowing infallible diety, then the mages are there because he wants them there and because they have a purpose. And the Templars do everything to stifle that purpose.

Templars also use blood magic themselves. So they're completely hypocritical and are Maleficarum by their own definitions of it. They use a forbidden practice believing it to be necessary to keep mages contained.

[Tenshi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

I see the need of the Templar order and support them, however, I also believe that mages need better equality. I still feel the templar order is a necessity. We have all seen what can happen if mages are left COMPLETELY unchecked.

You mean the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini being examples of mages who weren't controlled by the templars?

i cant see how such a small groups can be a good example.

[LobselVith8]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini being examples of mages who weren't controlled by the templars?

i cant see how such a small groups can be a good example.

The Dalish once had an entire kingdom where mages lived alongside non-mages.

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini being examples of mages who weren't controlled by the templars?

i cant see how such a small groups can be a good example.

The Dalish once had an entire kingdom where mages lived alongside non-mages.

Two, actually. Until humans destroyed it, both times.

And that's the hilarious part. The Templars are confusing human nature and blaming magic for it.

Even that spirit in the Brecillian Forest knew it: Humans aren't aware of the damage and destruction they leave in their wake.

[Iron Star]

Perhaps not every templar or member of the chantry is evil, but their respective orders are all through evil and rotten to the core, and should be erradicated.

[Iron Star]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not. 

edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this 

A lunatic with a weapon can cause mass murder too(just watch the news, it happens almost every month now). That doesn't mean we need to imprison and spy on all normal people.

Lol, say that to the US government.

[WhiteKnyght]

Get fired up wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not. 

edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this 

A lunatic with a weapon can cause mass murder too(just watch the news, it happens almost every month now). That doesn't mean we need to imprison and spy on all normal people.

Lol, say that to the US government.

I don't have to. They're watching us. Everywhere.....

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Except the Dalish do rip their children away from parents and send them to another clan to be raised by a Keeper.

Not always. And every ten years the clans meet, and they have to have members switch clans simply to prevent inbreeding, and unlike the Chantry and the templars, it's done with permission of the parents (I haven't seen any lore or evidence that says otherwise,) whereas the templars simply take the children from their families, and kill every man, woman and child in Rivain when the Seers decide to stay in contact with their families.

[ParatrooperSean]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not. 

edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this 

Magic doesn't kill people. People kill people.

[WhiteKnyght]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

 that mages should be free, when he doesnt understand that pretty much every free mage can cause mass murder or cataclysm no matter if he wants or not. 

edit: i could have writen this into pretty long wall of text but i prefer this 

Magic doesn't kill people. People kill people.

And if one day, everybody had magic, what would they do then?

Locking the mages up is a mixture of envy and prejudice. If they themselves had the same power, they'd have no problem with the mages. But because they don't, they fear what the mages would do to them for all the cruelties they've had to endure because of the normal people.

[KiwiQuiche]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini being examples of mages who weren't controlled by the templars?

i cant see how such a small groups can be a good example.

The Dalish once had an entire kingdom where mages lived alongside non-mages.

Two, actually. Until humans destroyed it, both times.

And that's the hilarious part. The Templars are confusing human nature and blaming magic for it.

Even that spirit in the Brecillian Forest knew it: Humans aren't aware of the damage and destruction they leave in their wake.

This is important.

[KainD]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And that's the hilarious part. The Templars are confusing human nature and blaming magic for it.

It's not human nature, it's 100% nurture.

[Dova]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because living in a safe, secure tower with free food, education, protection and companionship is far more stressful than living under the tyranny of feudalism with the constant threat of bandits, persecution, corrupt lords, poverty and so on.

Go around and ask various random people around Thedas if they want to be a Circle mage. I doubt that many would say yes.

This tbh. It may seem like a wonderful life too us, but think about actually being a mage and what actually goes on in the circle then what meets the eye. Anders explains this in both games.
As I said yesterday, the Templars abuse their power over the mages, thats why mages have a reason to turn to blood magic, but blood magic isn't helping them at all. 

[WhiteKnyght]

Also its easy for the Templar supporters to talk about how Mages should be contained because they're not in the position themselves. It's always easy to talk about necessity and sacrifice when you're not the one losing anything.

They'd all change their tune if they suddenly found themselves imprisoned for no crimes with no due process, forced to take part in life threatening rituals, and forbidden to marry or have children lest the children be taken away to be raised in the Chantry's orphanages. Or just forcibly stripped of everything that makes them human and rendered an emotionless husk.

If that happened, they wouldn't be so willing to give up everything about their lives just because some people say it's necessary for the "safety" of others.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 10 juin 2013 - 04:36 .

[Solmanian]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Well the idea is.Just because someone can cause damage doesn't mean that he/she will.A farmer with a pitchfork could murder his/hers entire family but doesn't mean that he/she will.

It's not the issue wether a mage is just as capable of killing people as the next guy in the street. It's about the demonic possession; it's about every mage being a potential vangaurd for a demonic invasion.

The mage isn't like a farmer with a pitchfork. He's like a guy that lights a cigerate (magic) while standing in a lake of gasoline (the fade).

[Solmanian]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And if one day, everybody had magic, what would they do then?

Locking the mages up is a mixture of envy and prejudice. If they themselves had the same power, they'd have no problem with the mages. But because they don't, they fear what the mages would do to them for all the cruelties they've had to endure because of the normal people.

Replace that word "magic" with "nukes" and aply it to our current situation. Does it make you feel better about Iran having nuclear weaponry, or do the words feel hollow?

[WhiteKnyght]

Solmanian wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And if one day, everybody had magic, what would they do then?

Locking the mages up is a mixture of envy and prejudice. If they themselves had the same power, they'd have no problem with the mages. But because they don't, they fear what the mages would do to them for all the cruelties they've had to endure because of the normal people.

Replace that word "magic" with "nukes" and aply it to our current situation. Does it make you feel better about Iran having nuclear weaponry, or do the words feel hollow?

So... what? You're saying we should put a glass dome over every nation that has a nuclear weapon? lol

There's also a distinct difference. Nukes are artifical/manufactuered, thus intentionally meant to cause harm. Magic, is naturally occuring and has beneficial properties, such as healing, potions, and enchantments.

Also a nuke is an inanimate object. A mage is a person entitled to civil rights just like everybody else. You can disarm a nuke and it's no longer a threat. But if you tranquilize or neutralize a mage, you've committed murder.

Also the Templars are short-sighted as well. The Qunari are planning to invade Thedas again and the last time it happened the only thing that saved their assess from being subjugated and enslaved(the same thing they do to the mages, mind you) was the mages. Nothing else could compete with their gunpowder weapons, poison gasses, and dreadnoughts. The Circle of Magi also is one of the most powerful assets to the Grey Wardens in the event of a Blight. If the Templars execute or tranquilize every mage, they're leaving everyone's asses wide open.

[Solmanian]

You meet a nuke on the street. It has a charming personality and is a very sensitive bomb. It also has a "sexy badboy" vibe due to his ability to wipe out an entire city. What do you do?

[KainD]

Solmanian wrote...

You meet a nuke on the street. It has a charming personality and is a very sensitive bomb. It also has a "sexy badboy" vibe due to his ability to wipe out an entire city. What do you do?

Say ''hi'' and smile. 

[GodWood]

KainD wrote...
It's only done through brainwashing, programming and nurture. There is nothing inherently better about one system than the other, there is no rational point about it. 

I get the feeling you're one of those kids who discovered nihilism and moral relativism and hasn't been able to move beyond that.

Xilizhra wrote...
Go around and ask various random people around Thedas if they want to be a Circle mage. I doubt that many would say yes.

I couldn't disagree more.

When one's choices are being a poor, uneducated, powerless peasant subject to the whims of my corrupt feudal lord with no guarantee of the most basic of necessities (i.e. food) or being a well off, educated, fed, housed, powerful superhuman anyone with any sense, or anyone who has actually experienced the former is going to pick the latter.

Dovaaa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Go around and ask various random people around Thedas if they want to be a Circle mage. I doubt that many would say yes.

This tbh. It may seem like a wonderful life too us, but think about actually being a mage and what actually goes on in the circle then what meets the eye.

Completely disagree with this too.

The average player is far too ignorant of actual poverty or suffering and is only going to see the 'crime' of "lack of freedom".