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I feel sick... again... (personal rather long 'crap ending(s)' vent)


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#101
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chemiclord wrote...

It's like a lot of people don't realize a lot of the things they oh-so-despise in ME3 actually is rooted in ME2.

For example, the autodialogue that is so loathed is pretty much a direct response to the Lair of the Shadow Broker that people loved to death, and said had such an incredible "cinematic" feel.


It's kinda hilarious how ME2 has become a kind sacred cow after ME3's release. Up to and including people praising it for being a fantastic RPG. When it was probably the worst of the lot on that front.

Not to mention it had the worst story of the 3. Its only saving grace being the characters which is one of the few things bioware is stellar at writing anyway

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 05 juin 2013 - 02:42 .


#102
PHGDAL

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Yeah, I saw somewhere that this person posted asking why there was a beam in the first place and why Shepard couldn't use the conduit from Ilos to get to the Citadel in the first place? I think it would have added a bit of nostalgia for us ME1 players.
As for the actual ending, I agree with you OP, I despised the original ending. I hated the most that Shepard had to die (or maybe die) and didn't get to be with Tali in Rannoch.
I don't know about many people but for me, I was saving the universe for her and the quarians, screw the other races. If the Catalyst gave me the option, I would have let the Turians, Batarians, and Asari go extinct just so the Quarians, Rannoch, Tali, and Shepard survived. Screw Hackett and the other humans too.

P.S. Exaggeration meant to be humorous, but I do agree with OP. Just wanted a happy ending with my LI.

#103
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PHGDAL wrote...

Yeah, I saw somewhere that this person posted asking why there was a beam in the first place and why Shepard couldn't use the conduit from Ilos to get to the Citadel in the first place? I think it would have added a bit of nostalgia for us ME1 players.
As for the actual ending, I agree with you OP, I despised the original ending. I hated the most that Shepard had to die (or maybe die) and didn't get to be with Tali in Rannoch.
I don't know about many people but for me, I was saving the universe for her and the quarians, screw the other races. If the Catalyst gave me the option, I would have let the Turians, Batarians, and Asari go extinct just so the Quarians, Rannoch, Tali, and Shepard survived. Screw Hackett and the other humans too.

P.S. Exaggeration meant to be humorous, but I do agree with OP. Just wanted a happy ending with my LI.


It's called Destroy

#104
dreamgazer

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LMAO how in the world is the Conduit a Deus Ex Machina? A MacGuffin sure (but not in a bad way, the Conduit is a good MacGuffin), but a DEM? No way son.


Did we know what it was before Vigil told us? Nope. It's Mysterious Device A, which could be a weapon, a signal, or Sovvy's favorite candy bar.

Did it provide the only means to resolve the plot, one that wasn't foreshadowed and utilizing foreign technology that we'll use because an ancient AI told us so? Yep. Conveniently still functioning until a few seconds before the crew zip through it.

Did it hurl the Mako lock, stock, and barrel onto a safe place on the Citadel in a very unlikely way? Yep. But who cares when we're stopping Saren and saving the day?

It's neither a pure DEM nor a MacGuffin, but a safe, contrived and "defendable" hybrid of unexplained motivations and grand, last-minute plot resolution. But it's alright because it's ME1.

Nerevar-as wrote...

Crucible and/or Starbrat apologists throw this around a lot. Even if it was true, it still doesn´t make ME3 resolution any better.


And what would that make me again, old sport? Care to share your generalization?

#105
Kel Riever

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Auld Wulf hasn't logged in yet, clearly. Nor have some of the usual defenders, blaming the poster instead of the game. They'll be along.

The OP isn't alone, nor part of an itty bitty minority, and that is what they dislike the most. But sadly, most of the defenders of the game are a lot less funny than most of the attackers. My suggestion is laugh at anything and everything stupid in ME3 and that's plenty.

Best way to get your money's worth at this point. And don't throw good money after bad. Drop the brand like a bad habit.

#106
Nerevar-as

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dreamgazer wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Crucible and/or Starbrat apologists throw this around a lot. Even if it was true, it still doesn´t make ME3 resolution any better.


And what would that make me again, old sport? Care to share your generalization?


Just an idea drawn from observation. p=0.05

And sorry, but Conduit doesn´t fit. There´s a lot of foreshadowing to it and what it did. Crucible is found just as the Reapers arrive, and the Catalyst... less said the better.

#107
dreamgazer

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Just an idea drawn from observation. p=0.05

And sorry, but Conduit doesn´t fit. There´s a lot of foreshadowing to it and what it did. Crucible is found just as the Reapers arrive, and the Catalyst... less said the better.


Oh? Please share, outside of Kaidan complaining about a hum next to the relay monument.

#108
The Night Mammoth

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dreamgazer wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LMAO how in the world is the Conduit a Deus Ex Machina? A MacGuffin sure (but not in a bad way, the Conduit is a good MacGuffin), but a DEM? No way son.


Did we know what it was before Vigil told us? Nope. It's Mysterious Device A, which could be a weapon, a signal, or Sovvy's favorite candy bar.

Just because it was revealed late on in the story doesn't mean it's a DEM. Shepard and co. are constantly looking for it, the Mass Relays are fully explained, and it fits with whole idea of the protheans leaving something behind with the beacons and the warnings. 

Did it provide the only means to resolve the plot, one that wasn't foreshadowed and utilizing foreign technology that we'll use because an ancient AI told us so? Yep. Conveniently still functioning until a few seconds before the crew zip through it.

It also provided a means through which the plot could continue by allowing Saren to use it. The Conduit isn't suddenly given to the protagonist when they're stuck at a dead end with no way out, it's simply part of the plot, like dozens of other things.

Did it hurl the Mako lock, stock, and barrel onto a safe place on the Citadel in a very unlikely way? Yep. But who cares when we're stopping Saren and saving the day?

It also hurled Saren onto a safe place n the Citadel in a very unlikely way, and no, that wouldn't make it a DEM either.

It's neither a pure DEM nor a MacGuffin, but a safe, contrived and "defendable" hybrid of unexplained motivations and grand, last-minute plot resolution. But it's alright because it's ME1.

It's alright because there's really nothing wrong with Conduit; it's just a plot device. Vigil's the real glaring flaw in ME1's ending.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is so forgive me. It's not perfect, obviously, the whole 'Saren needing the Conduit' premise is little off at the beginning of the game, and yeah, the fact that it deactivates right after Shepard goes through is contrived, but other than that, I thought it was a great revelation that fit quite well.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 juin 2013 - 03:32 .


#109
Oni Changas

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Despite the jackassery in this thread, OP is right. They changed the entire tone of ME in the final hour while giving every event after Cronos a feeling of non sequitor. I guess looking back, this is what happens when good Sci Fi minds and writers are left in the minority on the team.You can whine about "another thread like this!?" all you want but the fact that they're still made says just how powerful this **** up was. THAT takes skill.

#110
CronoDragoon

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There´s a lot of foreshadowing to it and what it did.


Really?

#111
The Night Mammoth

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CronoDragoon wrote...

There´s a lot of foreshadowing to it and what it did.

Really?

I wouldn't say that. I would say there's enough foundation so that it shouldn't be a negative surprise. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 juin 2013 - 03:38 .


#112
Oni Changas

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He picked the wrong words, but the Conduit WAS introduced quite early and hinted at many times. From squadmates noting how odd it is to the pursuit of Saren over acquiring it first, you can't say it came of of the blue. Same withh Crucible in regards to 3. Hell, its even been hinted toward in Cerberus Daily News and/or ANN in pregame hype. What seperates the two is that the Conduit's activation never shifted the tone of the whole story during Shepard's interactions with it.

Up until the RGB, I liked the idea of a superweapon created and improved upon for millions of years by every race for the sole purpose of eradicating an enemy that affects all life. It was like a giant middle finger to the reapers. Then it's implementation ruined everything.

#113
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Kel Riever wrote...

Auld Wulf hasn't logged in yet, clearly. Nor have some of the usual defenders, blaming the poster instead of the game. They'll be along.

The OP isn't alone, nor part of an itty bitty minority, and that is what they dislike the most. But sadly, most of the defenders of the game are a lot less funny than most of the attackers. My suggestion is laugh at anything and everything stupid in ME3 and that's plenty.

Best way to get your money's worth at this point. And don't throw good money after bad. Drop the brand like a bad habit.


I can also laugh at the melodrama surronding the ending

#114
Iakus

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chemiclord wrote...

It's like a lot of people don't realize a lot of the things they oh-so-despise in ME3 actually is rooted in ME2.

For example, the autodialogue that is so loathed is pretty much a direct response to the Lair of the Shadow Broker that people loved to death, and said had such an incredible "cinematic" feel.


My own feeling is that such calm acceptance of the space magic known as "the Lazarus Project" only encouraged more space magic in the Crucible.

#115
wright1978

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Well as far as i'm concerned the ending is a complete trainwreck before and after EC. Beforehand it was a horrendous mess that was also both bleak and unsatisfying, whilst after the EC it is a horrendous mess that is less bleak but still largely unsatisfying. Hope the OP enjoys MEHEM because at least it makes an attempt to streamline the ending into something that isn't a brutal trainwreck narratively speaking.

#116
Nerevar-as

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iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It's like a lot of people don't realize a lot of the things they oh-so-despise in ME3 actually is rooted in ME2.

For example, the autodialogue that is so loathed is pretty much a direct response to the Lair of the Shadow Broker that people loved to death, and said had such an incredible "cinematic" feel.


My own feeling is that such calm acceptance of the space magic known as "the Lazarus Project" only encouraged more space magic in the Crucible.


Intact memories aside, rebuilding a body isn´t that strange in SF. They should have made Shepard´s death different so it wouldn´t look so jarring. Or considering how it was just for shock, as it isn´t developed at all, think of another beginning to the game.

On foreshadowing, the very fact there´s a Relay on the Citadel counts. It´s the "so that´s what it was!" moment, when something new is revealed and we look back and see the clues. Think the twist in Jade Empire, or the 3rd dragon head in Dance with Dragons, which Martin had outright thrown it to our faces in CoK (I think the show didn´t, so in season 5 it´s going to come out of nowhere).

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 05 juin 2013 - 04:19 .


#117
dreamgazer

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Did we know what it was before Vigil told us? Nope. It's Mysterious Device A, which could be a weapon, a signal, or Sovvy's favorite candy bar.

Just because it was revealed late on in the story doesn't mean it's a DEM. Shepard and co. are constantly looking for it, the Mass Relays are fully explained, and it fits with whole idea of the protheans leaving something behind with the beacons and the warnings.


Hence why it's a hybrid instead of a verbatim DEM, why it's a quasi-MacGuffin until the plot needs it to ultimately fix the problem. The timing of its use, and the way it exploits the info-dump from Vigil about where it leads, borders on that line. 

The Protheans' ability to exploit and understand the Reapers' relay tech isn't explained, but, of course, it's not revealed until the last minute that the relays are Reaper design, either. I can concede to the idea of the beacons as a suggestion that they'd "leave" tech behind, but there's quite a difference between mental-communication storage devices and a functioning prototype of teleportation tech they didn't invent.

Did it provide the only means to resolve the plot, one that wasn't foreshadowed and utilizing foreign technology that we'll use because an ancient AI told us so? Yep. Conveniently still functioning until a few seconds before the crew zip through it.

It also provided a means through which the plot could continue by allowing Saren to use it. The Conduit isn't suddenly given to the protagonist when they're stuck at a dead end with no way out, it's simply part of the plot, like dozens of other things.


The whole thing is dead-ended without the conduit turning into a prototype relay, which was never directly foreshadowed and remained open just long enough to squeeze the antagonist and the protagonist through it before the buzzer.  And yeah, "Saren's on the Citadel and finishing his plan, but use that soon-to-be-closed backdoor with my assistance and you can stop him" is kinda handing the protagonist the solution in a dead end. 

Did it hurl the Mako lock, stock, and barrel onto a safe place on the Citadel in a very unlikely way? Yep. But who cares when we're stopping Saren and saving the day?

It also hurled Saren onto a safe place n the Citadel in a very unlikely way, and no, that wouldn't make it a DEM either.


I see.

It's neither a pure DEM nor a MacGuffin, but a safe, contrived and "defendable" hybrid of unexplained motivations and grand, last-minute plot resolution. But it's alright because it's ME1.

It's alright because there's really nothing wrong with Conduit; it's just a plot device. Vigil's the real glaring flaw in ME1's ending.


The combination of them both can be glaring, if you look at them through certain lenses. 

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is so forgive me. It's not perfect, obviously, the whole 'Saren needing the Conduit' premise is little off at the beginning of the game, and yeah, the fact that it deactivates right after Shepard goes through is contrived, but other than that, I thought it was a great revelation that fit quite well.


Don't mistake my comments as "dislike" or something I have an intense problem with (Vigil's info-dump, a conversation with the voice of an extinct species, remains my favorite moment in the trilogy for what it reveals), only that the series has been wiggling around plot-breaking devices since the first game. I poke fun at the "SPACE MAGIC" of the Thorian and mental cipher, too, but I also like those. And I still consider ME1 to be the most properly-written of the three. Just ... not without faults, some of the same things that the series has been more aggressively chided for later on. 

#118
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It's like a lot of people don't realize a lot of the things they oh-so-despise in ME3 actually is rooted in ME2.

For example, the autodialogue that is so loathed is pretty much a direct response to the Lair of the Shadow Broker that people loved to death, and said had such an incredible "cinematic" feel.


My own feeling is that such calm acceptance of the space magic known as "the Lazarus Project" only encouraged more space magic in the Crucible.


Should acceptance of an asari-cloning plant and a mental cipher encourage acceptance of the tissue cloning, cybernetics, and brain revival in Lazarus? It is 175 years into the future, after all.

#119
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dreamgazer wrote...

Should acceptance of an asari-cloning plant and a mental cipher encourage acceptance of the tissue cloning, cybernetics, and brain revival in Lazarus? It is 175 years into the future, after all.


Don't forget the magical space lesbians

#120
Mordanticus

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HappyApathy553 wrote...

What does Bioware have against giving an ending where you simply blow the Reapers to bits and live happily ever after? It may be cliché and not very philisophical, but it should be a choice, and one that actually has relevance to what choices you made throughout your journey in Mass Effect.


Amen to this, OP.. Amen.. This is what I have been saying since the beginning..

Hold the Line.. For Life..

#121
KaiserShep

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Morocco Mole wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Should acceptance of an asari-cloning plant and a mental cipher encourage acceptance of the tissue cloning, cybernetics, and brain revival in Lazarus? It is 175 years into the future, after all.


Don't forget the magical space lesbians


I'm pretty sure my Shepard is one of those. Vanguards are the most magical of all. 

Mordanticus wrote...

HappyApathy553 wrote...

What does Bioware have against giving an ending where you simply blow the Reapers to bits and live happily ever after? It may be cliché and not very philisophical, but it should be a choice, and one that actually has relevance to what choices you made throughout your journey in Mass Effect.


Amen to this, OP.. Amen.. This is what I have been saying since the beginning..

Hold the Line.. For Life..


I guess they wanted to go for some variety of brain candy in the end, and ended up fumbling and falling flat on their faces with it. There might've been some unsatisfied people who were looking for something akin to a "hard scifi" ending, but sometimes, a simple resolution works best. Nothing comes off worse than a "high-minded" conclusion that turns out to be pseudointellectual drivel. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 juin 2013 - 04:48 .


#122
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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Mordanticus wrote...


Hold the Line.. For Life..


lol

#123
Nerevar-as

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dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It's like a lot of people don't realize a lot of the things they oh-so-despise in ME3 actually is rooted in ME2.

For example, the autodialogue that is so loathed is pretty much a direct response to the Lair of the Shadow Broker that people loved to death, and said had such an incredible "cinematic" feel.


My own feeling is that such calm acceptance of the space magic known as "the Lazarus Project" only encouraged more space magic in the Crucible.


Should acceptance of an asari-cloning plant and a mental cipher encourage acceptance of the tissue cloning, cybernetics, and brain revival in Lazarus? It is 175 years into the future, after all.


I guess it depends. The BSG reboot kept human tech quite grounded, so Cylon mind transfer could pass as something we still haven´t discovered. 2001 did something along the same lines. ME1 did it best to explain how everything worked (excluding lack of friendly fire), and that did wonders for the immersion. Then in ME2 & 3 we see the squad with breath masks on hostile enviroments (for starters), and it all went to hell. But I guess the reason Starbrat utterly failed was because it used troll logic, has no reason to help (why would he grant LMS Destroy?), and green ending is of such a scale that it would require a literal Deua Ex Machina for it to be believable.

#124
The Heretic of Time

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dreamgazer wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LMAO how in the world is the Conduit a Deus Ex Machina? A MacGuffin sure (but not in a bad way, the Conduit is a good MacGuffin), but a DEM? No way son.


Did we know what it was before Vigil told us? Nope. It's Mysterious Device A, which could be a weapon, a signal, or Sovvy's favorite candy bar.


You might want to look up your definition of DEM, because this is not related to it.


Did it provide the only means to resolve the plot, one that wasn't foreshadowed and utilizing foreign technology that we'll use because an ancient AI told us so? Yep. Conveniently still functioning until a few seconds before the crew zip through it.


False.

The Conduit is just another mass relay, something familiar and something we have been using during the entire game.


Did it hurl the Mako lock, stock, and barrel onto a safe place on the Citadel in a very unlikely way? Yep.


False.

It works exactly like any other mass relay, of which the technology behind it is explained in the game and in the codex.


It's neither a pure DEM nor a MacGuffin, but a safe, contrived and "defendable" hybrid of unexplained motivations and grand, last-minute plot resolution. But it's alright because it's ME1.


False.

The conduit is pretty much a MacGuffin, but a properly explained one, which actually serves a purpose in the plot (it's a back door into the Citadel, which Saren needed to infiltrate the Citadel in order to gain control over it and let Sovvy do his thing).

The conduit is not a DEM, not even close, like absolutely not even close.

Again, I advice you to look up your definitions of "MacGuffin" and "Deus Ex Machina". You don't seem to understand what they are.

#125
AlanC9

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LMAO how in the world is the Conduit a Deus Ex Machina? A MacGuffin sure (but not in a bad way, the Conduit is a good MacGuffin), but a DEM? No way son.


Traditionally MacGuffin is used for things which don't have a specific function in the plot except as an object of desire. I suppose we could start using MacGuffin the way you're using it, but then we'll need a new word to handle the job MacGuffin used to do, won't we?

Though I'm sticking up for hitchcock's use of the phrase, which might be a lost cause by now.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 juin 2013 - 05:10 .