130 réponses à ce sujet

[schalafi]

Rassler wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders is dead and justice is back in the fade where he belongs.

He is trapped outside of the fade. Its something about the magic that sent him here.

Great! If Justice is outside the fade he'll have to find another host pretty soon, or find a way back into the fade. I think, maybe the fact that he accompanied Anders and Hawk into the fade may have shown him a way back. I sincerely hope so, since I never liked Justice in the first place.

[Reaverwind]

 "Persecute"? OP - that word doesn't mean what you apparently think it does. Try prosecute. At any rate, I don't know what to think of the Wardens. Imo, they shouldn't have let the situation with Anders slide. What he did in Kirkwall should have realistcally resulted in some serous blowback for the Wardens.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 07 juin 2013 - 05:36 .

[Lulupab]

schalafi wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders is dead and justice is back in the fade where he belongs.

He is trapped outside of the fade. Its something about the magic that sent him here.

Great! If Justice is outside the fade he'll have to find another host pretty soon, or find a way back into the fade. I think, maybe the fact that he accompanied Anders and Hawk into the fade may have shown him a way back. I sincerely hope so, since I never liked Justice in the first place.

It was a very rare Dalish ritual that sent Hawke and his/her companions in to the fade. If he can get them to help him then yes he can go back.

[TK514]

Rassler wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders is dead and justice is back in the fade where he belongs.

He is trapped outside of the fade. Its something about the magic that sent him here.

Great! If Justice is outside the fade he'll have to find another host pretty soon, or find a way back into the fade. I think, maybe the fact that he accompanied Anders and Hawk into the fade may have shown him a way back. I sincerely hope so, since I never liked Justice in the first place.

It was a very rare Dalish ritual that sent Hawke and his/her companions in to the fade. If he can get them to help him then yes he can go back.

We know the Circle has the ability to do this as well.

[IanPolaris]

TK514 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

schalafi wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders is dead and justice is back in the fade where he belongs.

He is trapped outside of the fade. Its something about the magic that sent him here.

Great! If Justice is outside the fade he'll have to find another host pretty soon, or find a way back into the fade. I think, maybe the fact that he accompanied Anders and Hawk into the fade may have shown him a way back. I sincerely hope so, since I never liked Justice in the first place.

It was a very rare Dalish ritual that sent Hawke and his/her companions in to the fade. If he can get them to help him then yes he can go back.

We know the Circle has the ability to do this as well.

Actually we don't know this.  In fact the evidence suggests that they don't know how. Remember in DAO, only mages were able to be sent into the fade by circle magic.  This suggests that the Dalish know more at least in this area (because the Dalish can send anyone into the fade not just mages).

-Polaris

[TK514]

IanPolaris wrote...

TK514 wrote...

We know the Circle has the ability to do this as well.

Actually we don't know this.  In fact the evidence suggests that they don't know how. Remember in DAO, only mages were able to be sent into the fade by circle magic.  This suggests that the Dalish know more at least in this area (because the Dalish can send anyone into the fade not just mages).

-Polaris

So...the Circle is doing the same thing, their methods simply aren't as advanced.  They're still sending someone into the Fade.  I'm more than willing to admit that much knowledge about magic and the Fade was lost when the Magisters sank Arlathan, and that it has yet to be rediscovered by modern practitioners.

Given that Anders is a Mage, and that Justice is a Spirit from the Fade, I'm inclined to gamble that even the Circle's less refined method would work.

[embraceternity]

Rassler wrote...

David Gaider hinted there will be replacement characters in DA3. This is most likely about Anders as we are given a choice like an ultimatum to keep him alive or not. There is no one else coming to mind but Anders. So count on being disappointed when you see Anders in DA3 when a save that he was kept alive was imported.

I'm sure, if he appears in DA3, there will be a replacement character in his place. It'd be a lot like, if your Warden didn't do the dark ritual or "didn't go to Amaranthine" yet you still play Awakening, you can play as an Orlesian warden.

As for who, if someone "doesn't come to mind", I don't think they'd necessarily make him magically come back to life. In fact, David Gaider just talked about this on his blog. (source: dgaider.tumblr.com/post/52199343217/on-bringing-them-back) When people always complain that Leliana, for example, is alive in DA2 despite potentially killing her in DA:O, he wrote, "Leliana is an example. She could have been killed by the Warden in DAO, yet she lives and appears in DA2 even if that happened. We’ve yet to explain why, and considering the reaction of some I suspect that even when we do they will still be unhappy." If they did that with Anders, they'd have a reason to explain why he'd still be alive, as well.

That being said, I can actually think of a perfectly good "replacement" character. Although, whoever the BioWare team comes up with (or if there's even an Anders appearance) will be done well. But, in Asunder, there was a chracter by the name of Adrian. She does something that one of the characters, who is the POV at the time, even relates to what Anders did in Kirkwall. (Info on said character: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Adrian) She's from Orlais, and she's still alive by the end of the novel, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was Ander's 'replacement' in any mage-extremist scenarios that we might be seeing.

Modifié par embraceternity, 07 juin 2013 - 10:02 .

[Angrywolves]

I just want Anders dead and gone. He was an ok character in Awakening, contrived and shoehorned into being a crazy mass murderer in DA2 that Hawke knifed out of disqust. Not worthy of being a LI imo. Good riddance.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

So...the Circle is doing the same thing, their methods simply aren't as advanced.  They're still sending someone into the Fade. 

Sending anyone into the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it) is different than helping a mage enter the Fade, when they already have a connection to the Fade as mages. The entire reason that some denizens of the Fade are drawn to mages is because they can enter the Fade awake, while non-mages only enter the Fade when they are asleep, which is explicitly mentioned in the Magi Origin.

[BlueMagitek]

So that means that Darkspawn are the best mages, as they physically send people to the walls of the Black City?

[ThePhoenixKing]

To be perfectly frank, Ander's short story is, at best, a complete Voodoo Shark (http://tvtropes.org/...ain/VoodooShark). All it really does it make the Wardens look like morons in the pocket of the Chantry, pigeonhole the player's decisions/the Warden's personality in Awakening, and just generally muddy up the issue it was supposed to be clarifiying. It's the Dragon Age version of Superboy Prime punching reality; I don't blame Hepler for the quality per say, as it's effectively an editorially mandated handwave to try and paper over the game's general bad writing.

In fact, the short story is emblematic of so many of the problems that are present in DAII's storytelling, this emphasis of plot over character, and having a fixed destination at the end with no room for the player to monkey around with. It's no different than having Anders blow up the Chantry even if he left the party at Act II, or Hawke failing to make the connection between Quentin's murders and Leandra's disappearance; the writers have an ending in mind, and by God, they will reach it, continuity, logic or characterization be damned.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

So...the Circle is doing the same thing, their methods simply aren't as advanced.  They're still sending someone into the Fade. 

Sending anyone into the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it) is different than helping a mage enter the Fade, when they already have a connection to the Fade as mages. The entire reason that some denizens of the Fade are drawn to mages is because they can enter the Fade awake, while non-mages only enter the Fade when they are asleep, which is explicitly mentioned in the Magi Origin.

so...you're saying what I said in more words, then?

Mages are people, yes?  The Circle has a ritual to send people into the Fade.  Their ritual is less refined than that of a culture that had untold thousands of years to refuel their methods, so it only works on a subset.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion, since the individuals we're talking about both fit that subset.  Anders is still a Mage, right?  Justice is still a spirit from the fade, right?  So the Circle can send them into the Fade.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So that means that Darkspawn are the best mages, as they physically send people to the walls of the Black City?

What makes you think the darkspawn teleport people to the Black City?

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

So that means that Darkspawn are the best mages, as they physically send people to the walls of the Black City?

What makes you think the darkspawn teleport people to the Black City?

For that matter darkspawn and certainly darkspawn emissaries don't seem to have a fade connection at all, and don't cast magic based on it.  They cast their spells from their inherent taint which is similiar to bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

So...the Circle is doing the same thing, their methods simply aren't as advanced.  They're still sending someone into the Fade. 

Sending anyone into the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it) is different than helping a mage enter the Fade, when they already have a connection to the Fade as mages. The entire reason that some denizens of the Fade are drawn to mages is because they can enter the Fade awake, while non-mages only enter the Fade when they are asleep, which is explicitly mentioned in the Magi Origin.

so...you're saying what I said in more words, then?

Mages are people, yes?  The Circle has a ritual to send people into the Fade.  Their ritual is less refined than that of a culture that had untold thousands of years to refuel their methods, so it only works on a subset.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion, since the individuals we're talking about both fit that subset.  Anders is still a Mage, right?  Justice is still a spirit from the fade, right?  So the Circle can send them into the Fade.

We know the Dalish ritual sends both Anders and Justice into the Fade (but Justice automatically becomes dominant), but the Dalish ritual is special since it doesn't depend on a fade connection.  While I am sure the circle ritual could send Anders, I am not sure it could send Justice whose entire form was expelled from the fade and whose connection to the fade was severed in DAA.

-Polaris

[TK514]

IanPolaris wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

So...the Circle is doing the same thing, their methods simply aren't as advanced.  They're still sending someone into the Fade. 

Sending anyone into the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it) is different than helping a mage enter the Fade, when they already have a connection to the Fade as mages. The entire reason that some denizens of the Fade are drawn to mages is because they can enter the Fade awake, while non-mages only enter the Fade when they are asleep, which is explicitly mentioned in the Magi Origin.

so...you're saying what I said in more words, then?

Mages are people, yes?  The Circle has a ritual to send people into the Fade.  Their ritual is less refined than that of a culture that had untold thousands of years to refuel their methods, so it only works on a subset.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion, since the individuals we're talking about both fit that subset.  Anders is still a Mage, right?  Justice is still a spirit from the fade, right?  So the Circle can send them into the Fade.

We know the Dalish ritual sends both Anders and Justice into the Fade (but Justice automatically becomes dominant), but the Dalish ritual is special since it doesn't depend on a fade connection.  While I am sure the circle ritual could send Anders, I am not sure it could send Justice whose entire form was expelled from the fade and whose connection to the fade was severed in DAA.

-Polaris

I knew he was expelled, but I did not recall his connection was totally severed.

[IanPolaris]

TK514 wrote...

I knew he was expelled, but I did not recall his connection was totally severed.

If it wasn't he could have gone back.  In DAA when Justice first occupies the Warden corpse, you can offer to kill the corpse.  Justice tells you that it wouldn't do any good.  He can't go back.  For that to happen to a spirit/demon, the connection has to be severed.  Near as I can tell, Justice is in the same boat that the Pride Demon Audacity was:  Cut off an unable to return without a host.

-Polaris

[Gyrefalcon]

Mykel54 wrote...

Thanks everybody for your insight, it has helped a lot. I have to admit that this was very poorly explained in the game, but after reading your opinions and some thinking on my own, i think it could work. I am taking Mr Maniac reasoning as the main guide to explain the situation.

Nathaniel not reporting him, because they are friends and Anders is superficially not dangerous (he is not your typical crazy abomination). I think bioware went this route with him and the other wardens. Consider that when Anders meets a warden, it is always under "special and unique" circumstances:

-Anders meets a unknown warden (alistair, janeka, etc.) so they do nothing because they don´t know who he is and what he did. At most, they could sense he is another grey warden, but not recognise him unless they were at Amaranthine.

-Anders meets Nathaniel, which is his friend so he would not report him, plus in DAA he wasn´t totally agaisnt the idea of Justice inside a body. Nathaniel may see that Anders is not crazy (he is not your obvious abomination on rampage, even if he is possesed), and think that he is not a threat, so no need to report his friend.

- Anders meets Stroud, who conveniently seems to owe him a lot, practically making him another friend. So much that he is willing to recruit the hawke sibling, but also to ignore that he has seen Anders, for similar reasons that Nathaniel: he doesn´t look like an abominaton, so he is no threat.

I think what the game missed was several warden npcs that were infact looking for him, they are mentioned in dialogue (Anders says so) but not ingame as npcs. There must be many grey wardens asking questions about where Anders went after Amaranthine, it is just that apparently no one realised he was in Kirkwall in several years. So they didn´t found him and he had time for blowing the chantry and all that.

I don´t think it is a coincidence that all the wardens that Anders meets in the game are in his pocket. All the warden that Anders can meet either don´t know about him, or are his buddies and are not going to report him. I can imagine Stroud/Nathaniel being sympathetic to Anders, and feeling that the templars forced the issue and that Anders wasn´t really at fault (they are friends, so they should give the benefit of the doubt).

Regardless, i have to agree that this situation was poorly handled, and that the short story information should have been included in the main game, even if it was as a codex entry for Anders and the other wardens, something to explain better what was going between them.

Stroud also met Anders in the Deep Roads.  If a Warden feels "The Calling" they go off alone to kill as many darkspawn as possible down there.  There isn't a rule as to *which* part of the Deep Roads you have to choose.  So even friendship aside, Stroud may not have had any reason to bother Anders when he appeared to be following the code.  That he was attempting to help people trapped down there only aids to the assumption that he is doing his best to do what is expected of Wardens. 

Nathanial is a friend and went through all those things with Anders and Justice.  His sister has Anders' cat after all!  And with knowing that Justice was a Fade spirit but not a demon, (and the lack of the typical Abomination behavior) he may have hoped things would turn out for two of his friends.  After all, if anyone understands the value of a new start, it is him.

Add in the short story by Jennifer Hepler where the Templars are allowed to attempt to seize Anders even though he is a Gray Warden, well, that may set a dangerous precident as to whom has the right over a prisoner after the conscription.  If the Templars can seize one Gray Warden, why shouldn't they interfer with any of them they like?  Given that the Templars failed and that the Gray Wardens had failed to aid/protect one of their own, they may have chosen to not report that they had seen Anders.  With their numbers down and the issues at hand being so volitile, it may have been the best his friends could do for him.

[Jazharah]

As a proper grammar freak, I have to wag a finger at all the people who said 'persecute' would be wrong in this context.

Both prosecute and persecute would work in Anders's case effectively, with it a bit leaning to persecute since there would likely be no legal proceedings preceding his execution.

Source: http://grammarist.co...cute-prosecute/

Modifié par Jazharah, 08 juin 2013 - 05:25 .

[Angrywolves]

Nice grammar. I didn't know about the Justice can't go back scene in Awakening. So obviously Gaider means for him to eventually possess somone else, possibly in DAI . Which would make my previous analysis wrong . rotfl. We'll see.

[schalafi]

Whatever the doubts about Justice being able to enter the fade, he entered it with Anders, and took over. Since this is just a fantasy game why is it so hard to accept the fact that Justice might be able to go back to the fade with or without a host, even if it doesn't co-inside with the story in Awakening? If the ability to teleport, thugs multiplying and jumping from the sky,  creatures like elves, dwarves, dragons, and quinari can be accepted, then I'd say anything goes in a fantasy, and trying to make logical sense out of it is futile.

Modifié par schalafi, 08 juin 2013 - 04:50 .

[Lulupab]

schalafi wrote...

Whatever the doubts about Justice being able to enter the fade, he entered it with Anders, and took over. Since this is just a fantasy game why is it so hard to accept the fact that Justice might be able to go back to the fade with or without a host, even if it doesn't co-inside with the story in Awakening? If the ability to teleport, thugs multiplying and jumping from the sky,  creatures like elves, dwarves, dragons, and quinari can be accepted, then I'd say anything goes in a fantasy, and trying to make logical sense out of it is futile.

Don't you think that logic is flawed? Because a spell was cast to severe Justice's connection to the fade, just because its a fantasy game doesn't mean we should ignore it. Imagine someone was turned into a toad by a spell, he can't simply go lolololol this is fantasy game and *snap* back to human again.

Also, you are forgetting something here. All abominations who enter the fade turn into their true self which is a demon. This has happened most of the times. But Justice's form in the fade was Anders himself only with glowing eyes. This means Justice and Anders are really one, like someone with 2 personality.

Modifié par Rassler, 08 juin 2013 - 05:20 .

[legbamel]

Jazharah wrote...
As a proper grammar freak, I have to wag a finger at all the people who said 'persecute' would be wrong in this context.

Both prosecute and persecute would work in Anders's case effectively, with it a bit leaning to persecute since there would likely be no legal proceedings preceding his execution.

Source: http://grammarist.co...cute-prosecute/

Persecute means harassment and continuous action.  It has negative connotations that don't fit with a sensible reaction for an organization looking to either kill or return a rogue member.  There are much better words for what the Wardens might/ought to do, such as execute or capture, but persecute means mistreating someone--someone who does not deserve it--rather than taking decisive action and finishing.

Merriam-Webster reads:
1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief 2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : pester

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders seems to think his death would send Justice back into the Fade in Dragon Age 2.

[Lulupab]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders seems to think his death would send Justice back into the Fade in Dragon Age 2.

He said Justice would be free. That doesn't mean he can go back to the fade.