146 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Stella-Arc wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wonder why people are against Alistair being Fiona's kid so much.

Is it the half-elfiness?

Personally?  It's just pushing my 'too much special snowflake' button.  He was already potentially King, Hero, Grey Warden, Templar powers without the downside, who could step into his duty and become a beloved monarch.  Now he's also half-elf, dragonblooded, super best friends with one third of the Qunari Triumverate, and who knows what else.

I think Templar/Grey Warden/Hero who could rise above his personal shortcomings and accept a throne he didn't want pretty much filled the meter for me.

My other propblem is that Fiona pushes that exact same button, only about 100x harder, which taints Alistair by association.  She's an elf,  a Grey Warden that got rid of the taint, a mage who, surprise surpise, pulled off the exact same trick as the Hero of Ferelden by saving everyone from a Sloth Demon in the Fade (assuming you don't read it as she was outright possessed and got better), was BFFs with Maric, Riordan, and Duncan, knew about the Architect before the Hero of Ferelden/Warden-Commander, hobnobbed with the First Warden, decided she wanted to go back the the Circle and get elected to the highest position a person can hold in the Circle, then started a war.  She's basically "I can do everything the Hero of Ferelden can do, only more and better".

By comparison, Maric, who only freed his nation from tyrannical occupation with the help of some extremely talented and loyal friends, and who apparently has dragon blood, seems positively pedestrian.

All of this.

After reading Until We Sleep and seeing the corrections made to The World of Thedas about the date of the Calling, I feel like ripping my hair out. The whole thing with Alistair is like eating sweets; just enough and it will satisfy you but anymore and you'll get sick from all the sweetness. The sweetness being how "spechul" Alistair is. Despit it all, I will accept it. Not much I can do about it but roll my eyes and move on. 

Alistair is also the direct descendant of Andraste and Leliana is his long-lost twin sister, and they are both somehow Morrigan's Old God Baby from the future. Their unique blend of Dragon/Jesus DNA makes them immortal and also immune to both blood magic and the taint.

The plot of DA:I will involve finding a working Eluvian so you can escort them to the Black City, where their holy power will cleanse it and their souls will merge together to form a new Maker.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 juin 2013 - 04:47 .

[Ieldra]

PlasmaCheese wrote...

I took Corypheus's statement as meaning he *expected* the Golden City to be golden, but it turned black when they got there. Not that it already was. I think what he said was vague enough to mean either or.

/Shrug

He says it was "supposed to be golden". The exact words IIRC. That clearly implies that it wasn't when he got there. Then add this little "erratum" of Bioware's - the picture becomes less and less ambiguous. It also implies that the city wasn't a fixture in the Fade back then, or they would've known it was golden/black or looked that way from afar. 

[Ieldra]

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juin 2013 - 07:24 .

[PsychoBlonde]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

According to Corypheus, it was black when he and the Magisters got there, meaning the chant is wrong.

Maybe--or he might have been making a reference to something else.  The writers have no entertainment other than screwing with us.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ieldra2 wrote...

He says it was "supposed to be golden". The exact words IIRC. That clearly implies that it wasn't when he got there. Then add this little "erratum" of Bioware's - the picture becomes less and less ambiguous. It also implies that the city wasn't a fixture in the Fade back then, or they would've known it was golden/black or looked that way from afar. 

Some of the ancillary stuff they've come out with implies that the Veil and the Fade were created instead of being natural phenomenae.  So, any and all of what the Chantry disseminates could be wildly inaccurate.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I also took Corypheus statements to mean the city turned black as he arrived So they definitely sound ambiguous enough to be either, imo. And it implies to me that the city was a fixture in the fade (as it has always been) and that it appeared gold to the outsiders, not that it wasn't a fixture in the fade back then.

The other thing is that none of the companions seem to react like his story just disproved the chant. Everyone, including whichever warden Hawke helped, respond like he blackened the city and corrupted the world. Even Anders, who's so unbelieving of the Chantry's story in the DLC that he doesn't believe the magisters ever traveled to the Black City seems to think that the Chant was right about the origin of the darkspawn all along.

The error in Bioware's book also says that the Old Gods were in the Black City when they clearly were not, they were underground.

[Heimdall]

PlasmaCheese wrote...

I took Corypheus's statement as meaning he *expected* the Golden City to be golden, but it turned black when they got there. Not that it already was. I think what he said was vague enough to mean either or.

/Shrug

Me too

[Ieldra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Even Anders, who's so unbelieving of the Chantry's story in the DLC that he doesn't believe the magisters ever traveled to the Black City seems to think that the Chant was right about the origin of the darkspawn all along.

The origin of the darkspawn makes more sense if you assume that the old Magisters were lured there to be transformed by the Black City instead of transforming it by their arrival. The thing is, nothing can make me believe in physical disfiguration as a natural consequence of moral "corruption". No morality, even less the morality of one specific ideology which didn't exist at the time when the Magisters traveled to the City (to get the argument 'the laws of the Fade are shaped by human belief' out of the way), is built into the structure of the universe, and I see no indication that Thedas is different from the real world in that. 

The error in Bioware's book also says that the Old Gods were in the Black City when they clearly were not, they were underground.

That was later. The location of the old gods before the time of the Blights is/was unknown. It makes sense that they were in the City if you assume they lured the Magisters there. The error wasn't a factual error. It was unintentionally breaking the cloud of intentional obfuscation around the events at the City and their meaning.

[ComfortablyNumb]

TK514 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wonder why people are against Alistair being Fiona's kid so much.

Is it the half-elfiness?

Personally?  It's just pushing my 'too much special snowflake' button.  He was already potentially King, Hero, Grey Warden, Templar powers without the downside, who could step into his duty and become a beloved monarch.  Now he's also half-elf, dragonblooded, super best friends with one third of the Qunari Triumverate, and who knows what else.

I think Templar/Grey Warden/Hero who could rise above his personal shortcomings and accept a throne he didn't want pretty much filled the meter for me.

My other propblem is that Fiona pushes that exact same button, only about 100x harder, which taints Alistair by association.  She's an elf,  a Grey Warden that got rid of the taint, a mage who, surprise surpise, pulled off the exact same trick as the Hero of Ferelden by saving everyone from a Sloth Demon in the Fade (assuming you don't read it as she was outright possessed and got better), was BFFs with Maric, Riordan, and Duncan, knew about the Architect before the Hero of Ferelden/Warden-Commander, hobnobbed with the First Warden, decided she wanted to go back the the Circle and get elected to the highest position a person can hold in the Circle, then started a war.  She's basically "I can do everything the Hero of Ferelden can do, only more and better".

By comparison, Maric, who only freed his nation from tyrannical occupation with the help of some extremely talented and loyal friends, and who apparently has dragon blood, seems positively pedestrian.

Never read comics, but it looks like they are making Alistair classic Gary Stu.. With a Mary Sue mother...

Modifié par mrufka_z, 06 juin 2013 - 10:47 .

[DragonAgeLegend]

"Page 177: The “First Warden” is the leader of the Grey Wardens at Weisshaupt. The glossary incorrectly states that he is the “Commander of the Grey.” I’m not sure what my peer was drinking when he wrote this one."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I really don't care for the mistakes, the book is awesome and so is the DA lore. Although, the way the corrections were done made me love the DA Bioware team even more! Haha!

[Ieldra]

wesam987 wrote...

"Page 177: The “First Warden” is the leader of the Grey Wardens at Weisshaupt. The glossary incorrectly states that he is the “Commander of the Grey.” I’m not sure what my peer was drinking when he wrote this one."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I really don't care for the mistakes, the book is awesome and so is the DA lore. Although, the way the corrections were done made me love the DA Bioware team even more! Haha!

I can only agree. I like Thedas as a fictional world, I've rarely found a world presented mainly through games as compelling. I do care about mistakes, but that's all they are - mistakes which can be corrected. A publication without mistakes is as unlikely as software without bugs. It just happens. I also like the style of the errata. The DA team clearly cares about its lore and I applaud them for it.

[Ieldra]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

He says it was "supposed to be golden". The exact words IIRC. That clearly implies that it wasn't when he got there. Then add this little "erratum" of Bioware's - the picture becomes less and less ambiguous. It also implies that the city wasn't a fixture in the Fade back then, or they would've known it was golden/black or looked that way from afar. 

Some of the ancillary stuff they've come out with implies that the Veil and the Fade were created instead of being natural phenomenae.  So, any and all of what the Chantry disseminates could be wildly inaccurate.

That's interesting. Which information suggests that? I wonder which kind of event could've created the Fade? And what would've the world looked like without it? Was it a sundering of the "spirit and dream world" from the material world? *Heavy speculation mode*

[Harle Cerulean]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

The thing that relates to Alistair in the errata is the correction of The Calling to 9:10; that's also the year the timeline gives as the year of Alistair's birth, and as at the end of The Calling, Fiona gives birth to Maric's bastard son, it makes it rather more likely that those of us who have maintained Alistair is Fiona's son are correct.

[Ieldra]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

The thing that relates to Alistair in the errata is the correction of The Calling to 9:10; that's also the year the timeline gives as the year of Alistair's birth, and as at the end of The Calling, Fiona gives birth to Maric's bastard son, it makes it rather more likely that those of us who have maintained Alistair is Fiona's son are correct.

Thanks. I haven't read The Calling yet. Follow-up question: why does this annoy certain people so much?

[Aleya]

Examurai1 wrote...
Is Anora fertile?
I don't know where I heard it from, I think is was from in-game, but I think someone stated she can't conceive a child.

Unknown. Considering the length of time she and Cailan were married without conceiving, it's pretty much a given that one of them is infertile. Seeing as Thedas is an analogy for Medieval Europe, everyone automatically assumed it was the wife rather than the husband.

The truth is Cailan may very well have been the infertile one. We'll never know for sure since Anora ends up dead, single, or married to a Grey Warden by the end of DA:O. In the case of a marriage we again have no way to be sure if she's infertile, because the lack of children could just as well be due to Alistair/Cousland being a Warden.

[Annihilator27]

They still need to fix the entry about the Nug's being the true old gods.

[K_Tabris]

This is a very clever and creative way to acknowledge typos, while most authors pretend they aren't there after publication. It drives me nuts when I see typos or mistakes in published works.

Also, I did not know you could kill Genetivi. There is so much variety in that first game. We were well spoiled by Origins.

[Mr.House]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

The thing that relates to Alistair in the errata is the correction of The Calling to 9:10; that's also the year the timeline gives as the year of Alistair's birth, and as at the end of The Calling, Fiona gives birth to Maric's bastard son, it makes it rather more likely that those of us who have maintained Alistair is Fiona's son are correct.

Thanks. I haven't read The Calling yet. Follow-up question: why does this annoy certain people so much?

I'll just paste what someone has already said as I agree 100% with it.

TK514 wrote...

Personally?  It's just pushing my 'too much
special snowflake' button.  He was already potentially King, Hero, Grey
Warden, Templar powers without the downside, who could step into his
duty and become a beloved monarch.  Now he's also half-elf,
dragonblooded, super best friends with one third of the Qunari
Triumverate, and who knows what else.

I think Templar/Grey
Warden/Hero who could rise above his personal shortcomings and accept a
throne he didn't want pretty much filled the meter for me.

My
other propblem is that Fiona pushes that exact same button, only about
100x harder, which taints Alistair by association.  She's an elf,  a
Grey Warden that got rid of the taint, a mage who, surprise surpise,
pulled off the exact same trick as the Hero of Ferelden by saving
everyone from a Sloth Demon in the Fade (assuming you don't read it as
she was outright possessed and got better), was BFFs with Maric,
Riordan, and Duncan, knew about the Architect before the Hero of
Ferelden/Warden-Commander, hobnobbed with the First Warden, decided she
wanted to go back the the Circle and get elected to the highest position
a person can hold in the Circle, then started a war.  She's basically
"I can do everything the Hero of Ferelden can do, only more and better".

By comparison, Maric, who only
freed his nation from tyrannical occupation with the help of some
extremely talented and loyal friends, and who apparently has dragon
blood, seems positively pedestrian.

Alistair is a very big Marty Sue now.

[Milan92]

Mr.House wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

The thing that relates to Alistair in the errata is the correction of The Calling to 9:10; that's also the year the timeline gives as the year of Alistair's birth, and as at the end of The Calling, Fiona gives birth to Maric's bastard son, it makes it rather more likely that those of us who have maintained Alistair is Fiona's son are correct.

Thanks. I haven't read The Calling yet. Follow-up question: why does this annoy certain people so much?

I'll just paste what someone has already said as I agree 100% with it.

TK514 wrote...

Personally?  It's just pushing my 'too much
special snowflake' button.  He was already potentially King, Hero, Grey
Warden, Templar powers without the downside, who could step into his
duty and become a beloved monarch.  Now he's also half-elf,
dragonblooded, super best friends with one third of the Qunari
Triumverate, and who knows what else.

I think Templar/Grey
Warden/Hero who could rise above his personal shortcomings and accept a
throne he didn't want pretty much filled the meter for me.

My
other propblem is that Fiona pushes that exact same button, only about
100x harder, which taints Alistair by association.  She's an elf,  a
Grey Warden that got rid of the taint, a mage who, surprise surpise,
pulled off the exact same trick as the Hero of Ferelden by saving
everyone from a Sloth Demon in the Fade (assuming you don't read it as
she was outright possessed and got better), was BFFs with Maric,
Riordan, and Duncan, knew about the Architect before the Hero of
Ferelden/Warden-Commander, hobnobbed with the First Warden, decided she
wanted to go back the the Circle and get elected to the highest position
a person can hold in the Circle, then started a war.  She's basically
"I can do everything the Hero of Ferelden can do, only more and better".

By comparison, Maric, who only
freed his nation from tyrannical occupation with the help of some
extremely talented and loyal friends, and who apparently has dragon
blood, seems positively pedestrian.

Alistair is a very big Marty Sue now.

Good thing he always ends as a drunk for me then 

Modifié par Milan92, 06 juin 2013 - 03:32 .

[wright1978]

Milan92 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me what these comments about Alistair mean? I didn't see anything that I could reasonably relate to him in the errata.

And where's all that stuff about Fiona told?

The thing that relates to Alistair in the errata is the correction of The Calling to 9:10; that's also the year the timeline gives as the year of Alistair's birth, and as at the end of The Calling, Fiona gives birth to Maric's bastard son, it makes it rather more likely that those of us who have maintained Alistair is Fiona's son are correct.

Thanks. I haven't read The Calling yet. Follow-up question: why does this annoy certain people so much?

I'll just paste what someone has already said as I agree 100% with it.

TK514 wrote...

Personally?  It's just pushing my 'too much
special snowflake' button.  He was already potentially King, Hero, Grey
Warden, Templar powers without the downside, who could step into his
duty and become a beloved monarch.  Now he's also half-elf,
dragonblooded, super best friends with one third of the Qunari
Triumverate, and who knows what else.

I think Templar/Grey
Warden/Hero who could rise above his personal shortcomings and accept a
throne he didn't want pretty much filled the meter for me.

My
other propblem is that Fiona pushes that exact same button, only about
100x harder, which taints Alistair by association.  She's an elf,  a
Grey Warden that got rid of the taint, a mage who, surprise surpise,
pulled off the exact same trick as the Hero of Ferelden by saving
everyone from a Sloth Demon in the Fade (assuming you don't read it as
she was outright possessed and got better), was BFFs with Maric,
Riordan, and Duncan, knew about the Architect before the Hero of
Ferelden/Warden-Commander, hobnobbed with the First Warden, decided she
wanted to go back the the Circle and get elected to the highest position
a person can hold in the Circle, then started a war.  She's basically
"I can do everything the Hero of Ferelden can do, only more and better".

By comparison, Maric, who only
freed his nation from tyrannical occupation with the help of some
extremely talented and loyal friends, and who apparently has dragon
blood, seems positively pedestrian.

Alistair is a very big Marty Sue now.

Good thing he always ends as a drunk for me then 

Good thing Anora chopped off his head for me then.

[azarhal]

Ieldra2 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Some of the ancillary stuff they've come out with implies that the Veil and the Fade were created instead of being natural phenomenae.  So, any and all of what the Chantry disseminates could be wildly inaccurate.

That's interesting. Which information suggests that? I wonder which kind of event could've created the Fade? And what would've the world looked like without it? Was it a sundering of the "spirit and dream world" from the material world? *Heavy speculation mode*

In the comic The Silent Grove, Yavana (Flemeth's daughter) rants about it and it seems tied to Flemeth's plans (if she have plans, she might just be riding the natural orders of things too). What she says is that there was "a time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten,"...when dragons ruled the skies.

Add  the codex entry for the Veil saying that it isn't a physical barrier, but an idea and you get the strange sensation that people created the Veil by believing it existed (i.e. a product of people's memories interpreted by the Fade).

The only issue with this is that the dragon almost coming to extinction happened about 300 years ago, but as far as we know the Veil already existed at that time. Although, there is a mention somewhere in the lore that the Pentaghasts called multiple "crusades" against dragons. So maybe the original "almost coming to extinction" happened a long time ago.

[K_Tabris]

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

[Mr.House]

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The who cares thing is plain silly. People like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the walkingtextbook of a Mary Sue.

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 juin 2013 - 04:01 .

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The hwo cares thing is plain silly. Peopel like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the wlaking textbook of a Mary Sue.

I don't see how being a "half-elf" makes him more 'special'. Since half elves don't technically exist in Thedas and he's still essentially 100% human it doesn't really make any difference at all. Not to mention it would be an explicitly bad thing to be.

Its not like other fiction where being half elf makes you a special long-lived person with magical powers- its really just equivalent here to having one parent who is incredibly low-class and the scum of society. Not particuarly special, in my opinion. 

Modifié par EJ107, 06 juin 2013 - 04:01 .