146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The hwo cares thing is plain silly. Peopel like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the wlaking textbook of a Mary Sue.

I don't see how being a "half-elf" makes him more 'special'. Since half elves don't technically exist in Thedas and he's still essentially 100% human it doesn't really make any difference at all. Not to mention it would be an explicitly bad thing to be.

Its not like other fiction where being half elf makes you a special long-lived person with magical powers- its really just equivalent here to having one parent who is incredibly low-class and the scum of society. Not particuarly special, in my opinion. 

He's a half elf who is the son of a gray warden who cured her taint that then became the Grand Enchanter who played a large role in starting the mage/templar war and is leading the mages in the war. How is Fiona low class?

You might like these types of things, but I don't. Alistair being Fiona's child is like a hammer basahing a ice statue. It destroys the entire character and makes him unbearable. All I see now is a massive Mary Sue.

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 juin 2013 - 04:06 .

[Zjarcal]

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The who cares thing is plain silly. People like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the walkingtextbook of a Mary Sue.

U mad bro?

[K_Tabris]

If you read myths and legends from ancient civilizations, the heroes do as much and even more than the Dragon Age characters. The writers seem to want to make certain characters legends throughout the series. Therefore, I don't see a problem with some characters getting special treatment. it seems that the only people who complain about this are those who don't care for the characters who are receiving the special treatment. if they were to make Oghren a hero, for example, I wouldn't be too happy about it, but i also wouldn't needlessly call him a Mary Sue either.

Also, realism can only serve a fantasy narrative too far. I think the writers have to decide where the line needs to be drawn between realism and fantasy, and they do a fine job of that already. I'm sorry, maybe I have bad taste, but I think realism can only play a small role in a fictional fantasy world setting.

[Ianamus]

Mr.House wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The hwo cares thing is plain silly. Peopel like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the wlaking textbook of a Mary Sue.

I don't see how being a "half-elf" makes him more 'special'. Since half elves don't technically exist in Thedas and he's still essentially 100% human it doesn't really make any difference at all. Not to mention it would be an explicitly bad thing to be.

Its not like other fiction where being half elf makes you a special long-lived person with magical powers- its really just equivalent here to having one parent who is incredibly low-class and the scum of society. Not particuarly special, in my opinion. 

He's a half elf who ist he osn of a gray warden who is also the Grand Enchanter and is leaidng the mages in the war. How is Fiona low class?

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still 100% human all having an elven parent really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

I'm not talking about any of the other stuff- or denying that Fiona is a blatant mary sue. I just don't see why "half even" tips the balance of the scales when it really doesnt mean anything here. 

Modifié par EJ107, 06 juin 2013 - 04:12 .

[Herr Uhl]

KallianaTabris wrote...

If you read myths and legends from ancient civilizations, the heroes do as much and even more than the Dragon Age characters. The writers seem to want to make certain characters legends throughout the series. Therefore, I don't see a problem with some characters getting special treatment. it seems that the only people who complain about this are those who don't care for the characters who are receiving the special treatment. if they were to make Oghren a hero, for example, I wouldn't be too happy about it, but i also wouldn't needlessly call him a Mary Sue either.

Also, realism can only serve a fantasy narrative too far. I think the writers have to decide where the line needs to be drawn between realism and fantasy, and they do a fine job of that already. I'm sorry, maybe I have bad taste, but I think realism can only play a small role in a fictional fantasy world setting.

The entire point of DA2's narrative was that legends are talked up as more than they are.

Legends are just that, legends. A Mary Sue is a legendary character that is supposed to be taken seriously.

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The hwo cares thing is plain silly. Peopel like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the wlaking textbook of a Mary Sue.

I don't see how being a "half-elf" makes him more 'special'. Since half elves don't technically exist in Thedas and he's still essentially 100% human it doesn't really make any difference at all. Not to mention it would be an explicitly bad thing to be.

Its not like other fiction where being half elf makes you a special long-lived person with magical powers- its really just equivalent here to having one parent who is incredibly low-class and the scum of society. Not particuarly special, in my opinion. 

He's a half elf who ist he osn of a gray warden who is also the Grand Enchanter and is leaidng the mages in the war. How is Fiona low class?

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still a human all it really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

The half elf in DA2 is called half human many times.

[Herr Uhl]

EJ107 wrote...

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still a human all it really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

Having the leader of the mage faction that also happens to be an elf and a grey warden that had a child despite being a warden is more 'special' than a noblewoman. A noblewoman is the norm for a noble.

[Ieldra]

Mr.House wrote...

KallianaTabris wrote...

I admit, the amount of significance and heroism Fiona and Alistair are a bit much, but that doesn't make them Mary Sues. Also, who cares? That's what happens to main characters; they get to be in the limelight more than others.

Being in the limelight and being THAT important are two diffrent things. Also yes all that stuff does make them Mary Sues and writer pets. The who cares thing is plain silly. People like the characters to be realistic and not be Mary Sues and have so many pros and titles that it starts to break immersion. Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. Fiona is the walkingtextbook of a Mary Sue.

After having read the account abovethread, I can only agree. I don't mind ultra-powerful character, a world like this needs them, but one type of special is quite enough.

[Mr.House]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still a human all it really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

Having the leader of the mage faction that also happens to be an elf and a grey warden that had a child despite being a warden is more 'special' than a noblewoman. A noblewoman is the norm for a noble.

She also cured her taint. So yes she is way more special then osme random noble woman.

[Ianamus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still a human all it really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

Having the leader of the mage faction that also happens to be an elf and a grey warden that had a child despite being a warden is more 'special' than a noblewoman. A noblewoman is the norm for a noble.

Dont get me wrong- Fiona is a blatant mary-sue and being Alistairs mother doesnt help his case at all. 

I just disagree that being "half-elven" means anything. Being the son of a powerful mage first enchanter Grey Warden who may not be affected by the calling certainly does though. 

Mr.House wrote...

Alistair was already pushing it, him being a half-elf just destroys the character and how much I can take. 

This was the specific point I was contesting.

Modifié par EJ107, 06 juin 2013 - 04:16 .

[Mr.House]

EJ107 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

He's not really "half-elf", he is human. Like I said before, half elves don't technically exist- he may as well have two human parents. 

Elves are generally considered inferior to humans. since genetically you are still a human all it really means is that one of your parents is considered inferior in society, which is one of the least special 'birthrights' I've ever heard of. 

Having a human noblewoman as a mother would be more 'special' than an elven mother. 

Having the leader of the mage faction that also happens to be an elf and a grey warden that had a child despite being a warden is more 'special' than a noblewoman. A noblewoman is the norm for a noble.

Dont get me wrong- Fiona is a blatant mary-sue and being Alistairs mother doesnt help his case at all. 

I just disagree that being "half-elven" means anything. Being the son of a powerful mage first enchanter Grey Warden who may not be affected by the calling certainly does though. 

Hey I just added it to the list, if it's not that bad ok, but that still leaves everything else oyu listed that makes it far worse.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Fiona being his mother turns Alistair into a Mary Sue, if it turns out it's true, but I do prefer the more prosaic story that Alistair's mother was just some maid.

And I don't really feel it all fits very well narratively with DA:O, where there's never really any suggestion that the identity of Alistair's mother is in doubt. And the whole Goldanna thing feels a bit hollow if it turns out she's not his sister anyway.

Modifié par Wulfram, 06 juin 2013 - 04:22 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

God, I dislike Fiona so much. Hopefully I'll get to kill her in DA3.

[Mr.House]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

God, I dislike Fiona so much. Hopefully I'll get to kill her in DA3.

I expect her to have Kai Lame plot armor, but 50x worse.

[K_Tabris]

Fiona is special because she is an elf, a mage,a Grey Warden and a Senior Enchanter. Ok. This does not make her a Mary Sue. This just makes her a very significant character. She happened to be cured of her taint due to circumstances introduced in the Calling. These circumstances were written not for her sake, but for the purposes of providing plot content for future Grey Warden lore and stories, whenever/if they are written.

As for being a Senior Enchanter, this comes as no surprise, since Fiona would be considered an exemplary mage, being chosen for the Grey Wardens. Her background in the abusive nobleman's household, her ethnic background as a mage, her experience as a Grey Warden, and her persuasion among the Circle fraternities makes her an appropriate character to help lead a revolution among mages. This does not make her a Mary Sue, it only qualifies her for a specific role in the novel.

I will say again that I think the whole Mary Sue concept is overused, especillay to describe characters people dislike. It's also a highly subjective term anyway.

Modifié par KallianaTabris, 06 juin 2013 - 04:29 .

[Mr.House]

KallianaTabris wrote...

Fiona is special because she is an elf, a mage,a Grey Warden and a Senior Enchanter. Ok. This does not make her a Mary Sue. This just makes her a very significant character. She happened to be cured of her taint due to circumstances introduced in the Calling. These circumstances were written not for her sake, but for the purposes of providing plot content for future Grey Warden lore and stories, whenever/if they are written.

As for being a Senior Enchanter, this comes as no surprise, since Fiona would be considered an exemplary mage, being chosen for the Grey Wardens. Her background in the abusive nobleman's household, her ethnic background as a mage, her experience as a Grey Warden, and her persuasion among the Circle fraternities makes her an appropriate character to help lead a revolution among mages. This does not make her a Mary Sue, it only qualifies her for a specific role in the novel.

I will say again that I think the whole Mary Sue concept is overused, especillay to describe characters people dislike. It's also a highly subjective term anyway.

She is not a senior enchanter... She is the Grand Enchanter. Leader of all mages in the circle.

She is a elf grey warden hwo has sex with King Maric and has a kid(who is now likely Alistair) who get's possesed then unposssed by a sloth demon, get's her taint cured, then returns to the circle of magi and becomes Grand Enchnater, is one of the characters that starts the mage war and is leading the mages in the war. This is beyond being special. Way beyond it.

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 juin 2013 - 04:33 .

[IanPolaris]

I agree. If there is a Mary Sue/Marty Stue in Dragon Age, it would be the Warden....or would be if Dragon Age were a normal work of written fiction. In the case of the Warden, this is actually a *good* thing since the warden is our PC and reflects our special connection to the world.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

She is not a senior enchanter... She is the Grand Enchanter. Leader of all mages in the circle.

Someone has to be Grand Enchanter, and she has both the seniority and skill, and apparently the charisma to convince others.  That makes her remarkable and important.

She is a elf grey warden hwo has sex with King Maric and has a kid(who is now likely Alistair) who get's possesed then unposssed by a sloth demon, get's her taint cured, then returns to the circle of magi and becomes Grand Enchnater, is one of the characters that starts the mage war and is leading the mages in the war. This is beyond being special. Way beyond it.

Having illicit sex with a King isn't all that.  Many kings in Thedas have a mistress or many mistresses, and the Alistair connection isn't important at least not yet.  As for the Sloth demon bit, apparently it was like the Warden's own encounter with a powerful sloth demon in broken circle.  This simply set up an entire scene for the warden in DAO.  Again, I don't see how that makes her particularly special.  As for leading the mages to war, it was really Rhys that was the driving force and deciding vote.

Fiona simply doesn't have the characteristics of a Mary Sue.  She isn't a particularly central character (she wasn't even in Asunder and we barely hear of her outside it), and she isn't a walking example of how to be perfect/better than any other character.  Like I said, if there was any character in Dragon Age that was a Mary Sue/Marty Stue, it would be the Hero of Fereldan.

You don't like Fiona.  I get it.  That doesn't make her a Mary Sue.

-Polaris

[K_Tabris]

Mr.House wrote...

She is not a senior enchanter... She is the Grand Enchanter. Leader of all mages in the circle.

She is a elf grey warden hwo has sex with King Maric and has a kid(who is now likely Alistair) who get's possesed then unposssed by a sloth demon, get's her taint cured, then returns to the circle of magi and becomes Grand Enchnater, is one of the characters that starts the mage war and is leading the mages in the war. This is beyond being special. Way beyond it.

Haha, I meant to say Grand Enchanter, doing too many things at once.

I acknowledged that Fiona is special, very special.  The general definition of the term Mary Sue is that a seemingly unremarkable person has an unusual unique ability, and uncannily survives or thrives throughout the plot. Also, all the characters of the opposite sex want him/her.

Fiona is not unremarkable nor is she unnecessarily so. She is a powerful mage who has proved herself with her own skill. AFAIK, only two people 'wanted her', not Duncan and every male mage and Grey Warden throguout the series.

According to this light definition of Mary Sue, Fiona does not fit the bill. Sorry.

The same goes for Alistair. He is not unremarkable, but has provent o be a powerful, highly skilled warrior who participates in many adventures. This does not make him a Mary Sue either.

[Gorguz]

So, if alistair is alive, maric is dead, and if alistair is dead, maric is alive. In any case there is still a theirin alive. Now the comics have a purpose.
I would have prefered a third theirin, but I feel like i can't hope anymore.

[Nole]

How is Alistair a Mary Sue? LOL.
Also, I never understood all the hate to Alistair in BSN.

[Heimdall]

Gorguz wrote...

So, if alistair is alive, maric is dead, and if alistair is dead, maric is alive. In any case there is still a theirin alive. Now the comics have a purpose.
I would have prefered a third theirin, but I feel like i can't hope anymore.

It isn't impossible... But it's now highly unlikely.  

[Heimdall]

WittingEight65 wrote...

How is Alistair a Mary Sue? LOL.
Also, I never understood all the hate to Alistair in BSN.

Nobody hates him really, they just think being Fiona's son takes his specialness factor too high.  I mean, he's (potentially) the bastard prince, addictionless Templar, grey warden, dragon-blooded King, and the elf-blooded son of former grey warden Grand Enchanter that was cured of the taint, now leader of the Mage Rebellion...

It's just a bit much...

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 juin 2013 - 07:41 .

[Heimdall]

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris