146 réponses à ce sujet

[Stella-Arc]

Lord Aesir wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

How is Alistair a Mary Sue? LOL.
Also, I never understood all the hate to Alistair in BSN.

Nobody hates him really, they just think being Fiona's son takes his specialness factor too high.  I mean, he's (potentially) the bastard prince, addictionless Templar, grey warden, dragon-blooded King, and the elf-blooded son of former grey warden Grand Enchanter that was cured of the taint, now leader of the Mage Rebellion...

It's just a bit much...

Yup. This. 

I liked his chararization in DAO. Now...well, I can't take him serious nor his mother. But I don't hate him. Fiona on the other hand...

[Nole]

Stella-Arc wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

How is Alistair a Mary Sue? LOL.
Also, I never understood all the hate to Alistair in BSN.

Nobody hates him really, they just think being Fiona's son takes his specialness factor too high.  I mean, he's (potentially) the bastard prince, addictionless Templar, grey warden, dragon-blooded King, and the elf-blooded son of former grey warden Grand Enchanter that was cured of the taint, now leader of the Mage Rebellion...

It's just a bit much...

Yup. This. 

I liked his chararization in DAO. Now...well, I can't take him serious nor his mother. But I don't hate him. Fiona on the other hand...

You can always kill him. No one of his special things can save him from that, lol. Though I would never do that to him .

Modifié par WittingEight65, 06 juin 2013 - 07:53 .

[Dave of Canada]

I liked the idea of Alistair being some bastard who had trouble fitting in, you push him to become King and he'll be incompetent and he really has no life goals to accomplish other than "avenge duncan" and "find goldanna" because she's the last family he actually has.

Now we're just pushing more and more **** onto him to make him feel speshul, the whole "Theirins are Reavers!" subplot in the comic was ridiculous and they're just trying to bulldoze him into our mind as being awesome.

"He's the bastard of the king and a grey warden who gave birth despite the odds! Can't forget that he's dovahkiin, dragonborn! Oh, he's also King for the sake of our default story but we won't mention that he's incompetent! He's also trained to be a Templar and wants to free all the oppressed minorities!"

Wouldn't be surprised if he can get female Wardens pregnant.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juin 2013 - 08:02 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Even Anders, who's so unbelieving of the Chantry's story in the DLC that he doesn't believe the magisters ever traveled to the Black City seems to think that the Chant was right about the origin of the darkspawn all along.

The origin of the darkspawn makes more sense if you assume that the old Magisters were lured there to be transformed by the Black City instead of transforming it by their arrival. The thing is, nothing can make me believe in physical disfiguration as a natural consequence of moral "corruption". No morality, even less the morality of one specific ideology which didn't exist at the time when the Magisters traveled to the City (to get the argument 'the laws of the Fade are shaped by human belief' out of the way), is built into the structure of the universe, and I see no indication that Thedas is different from the real world in that. 

Why? It's a fictional world. It could easily be written either way. It doesn't really have to be strictly moral corruption either. Maybe the Golden City is just not a place where humans are are supposed to go, so it broke.

But my real point is simply that even Anders, Mr. Chantry-is-wrong himself, reacted to Corypheus speech by saying "*GASP* Maybe the Chantry was right all along!" instead of "Aha! That's not what the Chant says!" And so did every other npc in that scene.

Ieldra2 wrote...

The error in Bioware's book also says that the Old Gods were in the Black City when they clearly were not, they were underground.

That was later. The location of the old gods before the time of the Blights is/was unknown. It makes sense that they were in the City if you assume they lured the Magisters there. The error wasn't a factual error. It was unintentionally breaking the cloud of intentional obfuscation around the events at the City and their meaning.

But they weren't in the Black City. They never were so it's still wrong, whichever way you look at it. And if the Black City is the source of the taint, then they couldn't have been if they weren't tainted until the darkspawn dug them up. And Dumat was unearthed soon after the first darkspawn appeared.

And in response to the other topic, Personally, I've never particularly cared who Allistair's mother is. Am I the only one?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 juin 2013 - 07:58 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But my real point is simply that even Anders, Mr. Chantry-is-wrong himself, reacted to Corypheus speech by saying "*GASP* Maybe the Chantry was right all along!" instead of "Aha! That's not what the Chant says!" And so did every other npc in that scene.

It was horrible writing like much of the writing in Legacy when it comes to Anders.  In both DAA and in DA2 Anders freely accepts and believes the Chantry line about the magisters causing the darkspawn....but doesn't feel all mages should be held responsible.

As for the rest, Cory seemed pretty clear to me:  The city was supposed to be golden.   That means it wasn't.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But my real point is simply that even Anders, Mr. Chantry-is-wrong himself, reacted to Corypheus speech by saying "*GASP* Maybe the Chantry was right all along!" instead of "Aha! That's not what the Chant says!" And so did every other npc in that scene.

It was horrible writing like much of the writing in Legacy when it comes to Anders.  In both DAA and in DA2 Anders freely accepts and believes the Chantry line about the magisters causing the darkspawn....but doesn't feel all mages should be held responsible.

As for the rest, Cory seemed pretty clear to me:  The city was supposed to be golden.   That means it wasn't.

-Polaris

Yeah I know that, but in the context of the story of the DLC he doesn't. If you wre looking for an explanation, one can make a case that maybe Legacy is supposed to be played in Act 2 before the conversation where Anders talks about magisters breaching the Golden City.

But while you can say that it doesn't mesh with the rest of his apperances, but that is still what he says in Legacy. And within Legacy he sees Corpypheus and changes his mind. Heck, even if he did believe the Chant's story, if Corypheus supposedly disproved the Chantry's explantion of the darkspawn he would have jumped at the chance to point it out.

If Corypheus saw a Golden City from the Fade, and entered it only for it to become black as soon as he stepped inside, that still would match with what he said.

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 juin 2013 - 08:12 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes there was, IMO. I guess we're at an impasse in the conversation. Moving along then.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 juin 2013 - 08:34 .

[Moirin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris

It is easy to believe they would lie about it, but what would be the point of adding a fake sister to the lie? One that they would have to count on to continue to lie for them about the whole thing consistently. Not to mention the fact that she's just a greedy b***h that would probably sell out the true information for the right amount of money.

I'd say that makes it a debacle.

Modifié par Spiralbutterfly, 06 juin 2013 - 09:04 .

[TK514]

It does seem somewhat convenient that there happened to be a pregnant mother who died in childbirth exactly when they needed one to, in theory, conceal Alistair's actual mother. It also makes me wonder, did the child also die in childbirth (what a turn of luck for the conspirators), or did they have to make an infant disappear somehow, like finding a foster family and paying them to take on the child.

Of course, a darker heart than mine might suggest murder rather than lucky coincidence, but that seems a bit much for Dragon Age.

[LPPrince]

Hey, Dragon Age was partly inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire, so it can get dark.

[IanPolaris]

Spiralbutterfly wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris

It is easy to believe they would lie about it, but what would be the point of adding a fake sister to the lie? One that they would have to count on to continue to lie for them about the whole thing consistently. Not to mention the fact that she's just a greedy b***h that would probably sell out the true information for the right amount of money.

I'd say that makes it a debacle.

In a settlement the size of Redcliff, the chances of at least one serving girl being pregnant at the right time would be pretty good.  As for her spilling the beans later, you make sure she doesn't by whatever means necessary.  I see both Duncan and Eamon being cold-blooded enough to do just that.

-Polaris

[Whitering]

I don't mind errors in the lore, maybe because I read so much history and it much of it is wildly speculative. I read four different books on the history of the first plague's effects on Britain, different numbers, different dates, different plenty of stuff.

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

There seems to be a clear path of events.

1. There was a city that looked golden in the fade.

2. People breach said city.

3. Now it is black.

According to Cory it was black inside. That way all suppositions make sense. The "gold" could have worked as a seal or a lure or whatever you want. Everything points to that it was both visible and golden from the outside.

[azarhal]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And in response to the other topic, Personally, I've never particularly cared who Allistair's mother is. Am I the only one?

There are at least two of us.

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

I'm fairly sure this happened before the chantry was formed- so why did they expect the city to be golden if there were no chantry teachings claiming it to be at the time? It must have been golden at some point, or nobody would have ever expected it to be.

Modifié par EJ107, 06 juin 2013 - 10:45 .

[Moirin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Spiralbutterfly wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris

It is easy to believe they would lie about it, but what would be the point of adding a fake sister to the lie? One that they would have to count on to continue to lie for them about the whole thing consistently. Not to mention the fact that she's just a greedy b***h that would probably sell out the true information for the right amount of money.

I'd say that makes it a debacle.

In a settlement the size of Redcliff, the chances of at least one serving girl being pregnant at the right time would be pretty good.  As for her spilling the beans later, you make sure she doesn't by whatever means necessary.  I see both Duncan and Eamon being cold-blooded enough to do just that.

-Polaris

Yes, but why use an actual serving girl as an example. To lie to Alistair it would be easier to tell him his mother died at birth, make up a name and say she had no family. This way no strings are attached and they don't have to pacify the "fake" sister. That's the point I'm trying to make.

azarhal wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And in response to the other topic, Personally, I've never particularly cared who Allistair's mother is. Am I the only one?

There are at least two of us.

Three? I don't care who his mother is either, I just like to assume the information we were given in Origins is correct until we are told (officially) one way or the other. Not hinted at, not implied, told.

I do think the Goldanna thing is one big mess though.

Modifié par Spiralbutterfly, 06 juin 2013 - 11:40 .

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

I'm fairly sure this happened before the chantry was formed- so why did they expect the city to be golden if there were no chantry teachings claiming it to be at the time? It must have been golden at some point, or nobody would have ever expected it to be.

Unless Dumat told the magisters the city was golden (and lied).  That's what I took from that.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

There seems to be a clear path of events.

1. There was a city that looked golden in the fade.

Citation Needed.  The first hint that this might be so is in the WoT errata.  In fact I don't think there are old references to any city (black or otherwise) in old records of the fade at all.

2. People breach said city.

OK

3. Now it is black.

According to Cory it was black inside. That way all suppositions make sense. The "gold" could have worked as a seal or a lure or whatever you want. Everything points to that it was both visible and golden from the outside.

You are leaping to conclusions.  The simpliest solution is that it was always black.  It may or may not have been visible in the fade before.  I have yet to see any Chantry independant lore that even hints at a city in the fade, black or otherwise that predates the first blight.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

I'm fairly sure this happened before the chantry was formed- so why did they expect the city to be golden if there were no chantry teachings claiming it to be at the time? It must have been golden at some point, or nobody would have ever expected it to be.

Unless Dumat told the magisters the city was golden (and lied).  That's what I took from that.

-Polaris

Then how did the Chant of Light know about that?

[BlazingSpeed]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

I guess the murder knife to the back of Genetivis head really did cause a few problems for him.

I guess Leliana wasn´t the only one who got better.

[TK514]

LPPrince wrote...

Hey, Dragon Age was partly inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire, so it can get dark.

I was giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt that they weren't going the 'Eamon and Maric murdered a pregnant woman and her unborn child to give Alistair a false parentage' route.

[BlazingSpeed]

IanPolaris wrote...

I agree. If there is a Mary Sue/Marty Stue in Dragon Age, it would be the Warden....or would be if Dragon Age were a normal work of written fiction. In the case of the Warden, this is actually a *good* thing since the warden is our PC and reflects our special connection to the world.

-Polaris

Yes, well my Warden does have the blood of a High Dragon running through his veins too but he's......gone....walked through a mirror or just....gone...Al isn't and as much as I like Al his list of feats is getting rather rediculous and Fiona is 50 times worse poor Maric he would have been better off...........gone just like the Warden PC.

I wonder if there is any point in rerolling that DA:O Warden and making it so that Al is dead instead of a drunk seeing how Leliana mysteriously gets "better" through tacked on plot armor.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then how did the Chant of Light know about that?

What Dumat told the magisters may have been known to Andraste.  There is at least some thought that Andraste herself was a mage.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How? The First Blight began centuries before Andraste's birth. And even if Andraste were a mage (which is certainly unconfirmed), why would that allow her to know what the ancient magisters heard from Dumat? She didn't even worship the Old Gods.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 juin 2013 - 02:55 .