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[The Hierophant]

Interesting

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris

Its more the issue of Goldanna herself being ever so sure her half brother was the king's and the chantry amulet.  Sure, it's possible to explain those things away, but it seems ever so messy regardless, stretched thin.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How? The First Blight began centuries before Andraste's birth. And even if Andraste were a mage (which is unconfirmed), why would that allow her to know what the ancient magisters heard from Dumat?

Perhaps it was told to her?  The religions of the Old Gods were very advanced with their own theologies long before the Chantry and long before Andraste and they DID write things down.  Not only that, but the old circles of Ancient Tevinter (not to be confused with the very different modern organizations of the same name) also kept records. 

It is not at all unthinkable that Andraste would have heard of this if she was a mage herself in one of the orders, or was a slave to an important magisterial family.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Its more the issue of Goldanna herself being ever so sure her half brother was the king's and the chantry amulet.  Sure, it's possible to explain those things away, but it seems ever so messy regardless, stretched thin.

We don't know for sure how old Goldanna was when Alistair was born.  I am thinking she couldn't have been very old.  If she wasn't, it seems likely she'd believe what her mother told her, especially if "thems at the castle" confirmed it and gave her hush money.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So then why isn't there a preserved record of such things now? They would have already been 200 years old by the time she could have seen them. If it was common knowledge and on record in Tevinter at the time, why is Andraste and the Chant the only record of it left now?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 juin 2013 - 03:20 .

[SurelyForth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My personal problem with Fiona being Alistair's mother is the whole Goldanna debacle.

I am not sure it's a debacle at all.  I find it very easy to believe that Eamon and Duncan would both lie about Alistair's real mother (assuming it is Fiona).

-Polaris

Its more the issue of Goldanna herself being ever so sure her half brother was the king's and the chantry amulet.  Sure, it's possible to explain those things away, but it seems ever so messy regardless, stretched thin.

Goldanna's probably not that much older than Alistair. She heard the Maric's bastard rumors as a little girl and, as it matched up with what she knew happened (mainly her mother died trying to give birth and a baby appeared around the same time) she believed them. 

The amulet could have belonged to the maid, or maybe Eamon gave it to Alistair and just said it was his mother's. It's kind of generic, to be honest. 

I find "Eamon lied his ass off to make the plan work" is way less of a stretch than "Maric was banging maids while married to/mourning Rowan." The former comes with the whole ruse of hiding a bastard's parentage (especially since Fiona has three strikes against her) while the latter is incompatible with what we know of Maric. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 07 juin 2013 - 03:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So then why isn't there a preserved record of such things now? They would have already been 200 years old by the time she could have seen them. If it was common knowledge and on record in Tevinter at the time, why is Andraste and the Chant the only record of it left?

A lot can happen in 200 years and I never claimed the records/knowledge was common, only that Andraste may have had it.  I also note that the Chantry has had time to 'decontaminate' old Imperial records for a while now.  It's very unlikely you'll find records even in Minrathus that contradict the CoL now (they instead would be missing).

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I actually meant why wouldn't there be records of the magisters planning to breach the city? They would have needed to be well preserved for Andraste to have seen them if she was a slave. And they would have strengthened the claims of the Chant.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 juin 2013 - 03:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I actually meant why wouldn't there be records of the magisters planning to breach the city? That would have strengthened the claims of the Chant.

That's an interesting point.  To be fair, though the magisters did seem to be a paranoid lot, and they seemed to go through a great deal of trouble to keep even their largest projects secret even from each other.  If you read the Enigma codex entries, it's clear that the Veil was thinned deliberately in Kirkwall and at great human cost....for a reason.  But it's never clear what that reason (or reasons) was.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for having Andraste learn of it, that would depend on what sort of slave she was and how well positioned.  If she were an apprentice magister (who is still technically a slave), she might have known the full story when most others would not.  We may never know.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He always says "But it was black, corrupt, darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been like that ever since he went there. So it sounds ambigious enough to me.

I'm sorry but IMHO there was nothing ambiguos about it.  The City was supposed to be Golden but it wasn't.  It was black.

-Polaris

I'm fairly sure this happened before the chantry was formed- so why did they expect the city to be golden if there were no chantry teachings claiming it to be at the time? It must have been golden at some point, or nobody would have ever expected it to be.

Unless Dumat told the magisters the city was golden (and lied).  That's what I took from that.

-Polaris

Lying to the magisters about the colour of the city seems incredibly pointless. The magisters weren't magpies; they were interested in the city because of the magic surrounding it and the oppourtunity to become more powerful, not because it was shiny. 

I'm far more inclined to believe that the city was golden and later became black than that the old gods told the magisters it was a pretty golden colour in the hopes this would somehow make going there more enticing. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 juin 2013 - 04:17 .

[Yalision]

But... what if Genitivi is dead? They must be resurrecting people again all willy-nilly! WHEN WILL IT END?! /sarcasm

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

Lying to the magisters about the colour of the city seems incredibly pointless. The magisters weren't magpies; they were interested in the city because of the magic surrounding it and the oppourtunity to become more powerful, not because it was shiny. 

I disagree.  It's not pointless at all.  The color of the city was the least of it.  What the magisters were promised was the power of the gods, if they could take his golden city.  This is what Dumat apparently promised.  It seems clear that Dumat lied.  Why?  Who knows, but I find it very easy to believe that Dumat wanted whatever was in the Black City released and wanted his servants corrupted in a certain way.  If Dumat told the truth, then why would the magisters spend all that time, wealth, and slaves just to get there (hint:  They wouldn't.)

That's at least as easy to believe as the Chantry version.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But if Dumat offered the power of the gods themselves why add that it was in a golden city? That seems like a trivial detail to add. They probably would have gone if he had told them the power of the gods could be yours if you go into the Black City.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 juin 2013 - 04:38 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But if Dumat offered the power of the gods themselves why add that it was in a golden city? That seems like a trivial detail to add. They probably would have gone if he had told them the power of the gods could be yours if you go into the Black City.

Who knows?  Perhaps the city being golden was part of the myth.  The point is the direct evidence we have points to Dumat lying to the magisters.

-Polaris

[The_FenixV]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But if Dumat offered the power of the gods themselves why add that it was in a golden city? That seems like a trivial detail to add. They probably would have gone if he had told them the power of the gods could be yours if you go into the Black City.

Who knows?  Perhaps the city being golden was part of the myth.  The point is the direct evidence we have points to Dumat lying to the magisters.

-Polaris

Hmm either way, even in death, Dumat seems to be important, he pops out everywhere that little bugger.. wonder if he could also be Fen'Harel. 

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Citation Needed.  The first hint that this might be so is in the WoT errata.  In fact I don't think there are old references to any city (black or otherwise) in old records of the fade at all.

Why would Cory ramble about how it was supposed to be gold and then the chantry use the exact same story if Dumat made that up? Why would Dumat make up such an unbelievable lie? Why not just claim that there is incredible power there (which, by the account of Cory, it did)?

In eiither case, I can't recall any records (other than dwarven, possibly) that could have pre-dated the first blight.

You are leaping to conclusions.  The simpliest solution is that it was always black.  It may or may not have been visible in the fade before.  I have yet to see any Chantry independant lore that even hints at a city in the fade, black or otherwise that predates the first blight.

-Polaris

Cory is chantry independant. He predates the first blight. He is also the very thing you're using to disprove that there ever was a golden city.

Decide if he is trustworthy or not. Either you take all he says into account instead of trying to twist the "Golden light" into that Dumat told the magisters that a black city or something invisible was actually golden so they'd go there, and that it is now the only set fixture of the fade simply by the merit of whatever.

You later go on to speak about how Andraste could have found this supposed pre blight evidence of a golden city by being a mage. Get your story straight.

[Heimdall]

SurelyForth wrote...

Goldanna's probably not that much older than Alistair. She heard the Maric's bastard rumors as a little girl and, as it matched up with what she knew happened (mainly her mother died trying to give birth and a baby appeared around the same time) she believed them. 

The amulet could have belonged to the maid, or maybe Eamon gave it to Alistair and just said it was his mother's. It's kind of generic, to be honest. 

I find "Eamon lied his ass off to make the plan work" is way less of a stretch than "Maric was banging maids while married to/mourning Rowan." The former comes with the whole ruse of hiding a bastard's parentage (especially since Fiona has three strikes against her) while the latter is incompatible with what we know of Maric. 

Like I said, it can be explained away.  I just am uncomfortable with everything in the game being an elaborate fabrication.  Like I said, it just feels messy

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Goldanna's probably not that much older than Alistair. She heard the Maric's bastard rumors as a little girl and, as it matched up with what she knew happened (mainly her mother died trying to give birth and a baby appeared around the same time) she believed them. 

The amulet could have belonged to the maid, or maybe Eamon gave it to Alistair and just said it was his mother's. It's kind of generic, to be honest. 

I find "Eamon lied his ass off to make the plan work" is way less of a stretch than "Maric was banging maids while married to/mourning Rowan." The former comes with the whole ruse of hiding a bastard's parentage (especially since Fiona has three strikes against her) while the latter is incompatible with what we know of Maric. 

Like I said, it can be explained away.  I just am uncomfortable with everything in the game being an elaborate fabrication.  Like I said, it just feels messy

In addition to my personal threshold for "super special-ness" in any given character, there's also a limit to how many layers of conspiracy I'm prepared to accept before it just becomes too ridiculous.

[CaisLaochach]

Is this really the end of the world?

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...

In addition to my personal threshold for "super special-ness" in any given character, there's also a limit to how many layers of conspiracy I'm prepared to accept before it just becomes too ridiculous.

Agreed.

[ThePhoenixKing]

SurelyForth wrote...

Rabillion wrote...

How silly of them to have multiple people all fact-check the book and not a single one managed to see those glaring errors.

BW is in desperate need of a dedicated person (or small team of people) to go over lore with a fine-toothed comb and get all the dates, names, and details pinned down and correct. 

They could hire me! I work cheap!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I know this is a slightly old thread but one thing that I've been thinking about since, The book says that the Old Gods whispered to humanity from the Golden City? Why would they be there? According to Gaider, the the Old Gods were supposedly not created by the Maker, but existed outside his plans. How could they be at the seat of the Maker. Then I realized there could be a solution. Unless he's changed his mind, I figure that the story of the Old Gods supposedly not being created by the Maker is the traditional lore the Chantry has on the subject. But doesn't the Canticle of Silence imply that the Old Gods were actually the Maker's first children? If so, then that would explain why they were in the Golden City 3700 years ago. If the book was "accidentally" exposing the truth of the Golden City, then doesn't that mean it would actually be confirming that the city was intially gold and one of the Chant of Light's Dissonant Verses is most accurate?

If Old Gods were whispering to humanity from the city in - 2800 Ancient, then it couldn't have been Black. We know the Black City is connected to the taint, the Old Gods probably couldn't have been there without becoming tainted. Unless, the Old Gods were Archdemons all along.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 juillet 2013 - 09:15 .