1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Rather certain that is not the intent of Lambert. Page 396 of Asunder he says, "Whatever you do here, you will not be permitted to run free. We will track you down and put you back in your cages, I swear it."

He was rather upset when he said that line-- just to put his harsh wording in better context. 

So, the templar intent isn't to murder every mage at Andoral's Reach. It is to take them back to the Circles. Should the mages refuse to go back, the templars will use force and a battle will ensue.

There are no more Circles. There's nowhere to go back to. The cat is out of the bag, and the templars want to disembowel it as a response.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Some of us strongly disagree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars have done to mages for nearly a millennia. When it comes to bringing an end to an institution that some characters (and fans) condemn as slavery, Xil thinks some actions are justified in order to emancipate them. 

So the ends justify the means when it comes to mages breaking loose. But the ends don't justify the means when the Templars are there to safeguard the majority from potential threats. Glad we cleared that up. I love Xil's rank hypocrisy in it's rawest form. 

I'm willing to help the mages in their plight and oppose the templars myself. I simply don't see it in the same terms as you do, and I doubt Xil does, either.

[BlueMagitek]

You're free to question as much as you like, if you would like to offer evidence that any of the wild things from the comic were brought in, please do.

I would like to see the ghosts of the dead in the Fade.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You're free to question as much as you like, if you would like to offer evidence that any of the wild things from the comic were brought in, please do.

I would like to see the ghosts of the dead in the Fade.

Well, Yavana managed to summon the ghost of a dead man back into Thedas, and the events of the DA comics are canon for King Alistair/Isabela not going to Qunari worlds.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Rather certain that is not the intent of Lambert. Page 396 of Asunder he says, "Whatever you do here, you will not be permitted to run free. We will track you down and put you back in your cages, I swear it."

He was rather upset when he said that line-- just to put his harsh wording in better context. 

So, the templar intent isn't to murder every mage at Andoral's Reach. It is to take them back to the Circles. Should the mages refuse to go back, the templars will use force and a battle will ensue.

There are no more Circles. There's nowhere to go back to. The cat is out of the bag, and the templars want to disembowel it as a response.

I dunno. It really does sound from Lambert's wording that he wants to reinstate the Circles rather than kill the mages out of hand. Whether that's because on some level his heart's in the right place and he believes this to be right, or because he's aware of the Joining (I think the Chantry's highest officers would probably know about it, because the Wardens would need them to know not to investigate) or because he knows the mages can take him, it sounds like all he wants is for the Circles to work.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 01:19 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

You're free to question as much as you like, if you would like to offer evidence that any of the wild things from the comic were brought in, please do.

I would like to see the ghosts of the dead in the Fade.

Well, Yavana managed to summon the ghost of a dead man back into Thedas, and the events of the DA comics are canon for King Alistair/Isabela not going to Qunari worlds.

Finally you show up.

Is that so?  I wonder then, why the Fade is not more full.  Or perhaps people degenerate into demons.  Ah well, the existence of the afterlife kind of puts a damper on Thedas style atheism. :/

Can you explain the last part of your statement? 

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

How so? Organizationally, the mages have done nothing wrong whatsoever, regardless of individual misdeeds. The templars are dancing to Lambert's tune.

It was "individual misdeeds" that played a major role in the war that's currently brewing.

Lambert doesn't seem to be playing any tune any more, based on how Asunder ended. 

At this point, all I see are templars likely soiling themselves that virtually every mage in Thedas has gone apostate.  The Maker knows what kind of damage that many mages can do.  particularly bloody-minded mages with a Magneto complex.

Edit:  and as others have noted, there's no evidence a genocide is in the offing.

Modifié par iakus, 08 juin 2013 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Rather certain that is not the intent of Lambert. Page 396 of Asunder he says, "Whatever you do here, you will not be permitted to run free. We will track you down and put you back in your cages, I swear it."

He was rather upset when he said that line-- just to put his harsh wording in better context. 

So, the templar intent isn't to murder every mage at Andoral's Reach. It is to take them back to the Circles. Should the mages refuse to go back, the templars will use force and a battle will ensue.

There are no more Circles. There's nowhere to go back to. The cat is out of the bag, and the templars want to disembowel it as a response.

I dunno. It really does sound from Lambert's wording that he wants to reinstate the Circles rather than kill the mages out of hand. Whether that's because on some level his heart's in the right place and he believes this to be right, or because he's aware of the Joining (I think the Chantry's highest officers would probably know about it, because the Wardens would need them to know not to investigate) or because he knows the mages can take him, it sounds like all he wants is for the Circles to work.

He'd rather have all mages subjugated, yes, but that's just not going to happen anymore. And it's not even necessarily relevant as to what his personal feelings are, as he's almost certainly dead.

At this point, all I see are templars likely soiling themselves that
virtually every mage in Thedas has gone apostate.  The Maker knows what
kind of damage that many mages can do.  particularly bloody-minded mages
with a Magneto complex.

Good. We'll be able to smell them from farther away. And I hope it's as hellish an amount of damage as possible, provided we keep it aimed at the templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 juin 2013 - 01:24 .

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...

regardless of individual misdeeds.

Something you are all to happy to absolve mages for but damn not only Templars but the whole of the Anradte faith for.

Again you embody what you claim to hate.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I dunno. It really does sound from Lambert's wording that he wants to reinstate the Circles rather than kill the mages out of hand. Whether that's because on some level his heart's in the right place and he believes this to be right, or because he's aware of the Joining (I think the Chantry's highest officers would probably know about it, because the Wardens would need them to know not to investigate) or because he knows the mages can take him, it sounds like all he wants is for the Circles to work.

He'd rather have all mages subjugated, yes, but that's just not going to happen anymore. And it's not even necessarily relevant as to what his personal feelings are, as he's almost certainly dead.

Still, it doesn't seem like he personally wanted the mages dead. His efforts seem to have been directed towards keeping them in their cages, and unlike Meredith I don't think he'd have been inclined to kill surrendering mages. If whoever succeeds him is less merciful, that's another problem, but I think ultimately what Lambert wanted was the mages in their cages, with both the mundanes and the other mages protected from them.

At this point, all I see are templars likely soiling themselves that
virtually every mage in Thedas has gone apostate.  The Maker knows what
kind of damage that many mages can do.  particularly bloody-minded mages
with a Magneto complex.

Good. We'll be able to smell them from farther away. And I hope it's as hellish an amount of damage as possible, provided we keep it aimed at the templars.

It might be a good idea to leave Adrian in a ditch, then.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 01:29 .

[Xilizhra]

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

regardless of individual misdeeds.

Something you are all to happy to absolve mages for but damn not only Templars but the whole of the Anradte faith for.

Again you embody what you claim to hate.

When the templar leadership and the templar rank and file commit the same atrocities, no other reasonable conclusion can be drawn.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
Good. We'll be able to smell them from farther away. And I hope it's as hellish an amount of damage as possible, provided we keep it aimed at the templars.

And how many of them will turn to blood magic?  how many will make (foolish) deals with demons and end up abominations?  How many will set themselves up as petty dictators?

This is what the templars fear, I think.  you say teh mages are oganizationally innocent.  Of course, at this point there is no mage organization.  What's holding them together?   Sure a lot, heck most just want to live their lives peacefully.  But not all.  What kind of damage will they do?  How badly will they undermine the cause of mage freedom by illustrating Lambert's point?

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

regardless of individual misdeeds.

Something you are all to happy to absolve mages for but damn not only Templars but the whole of the Anradte faith for.

Again you embody what you claim to hate.

When the templar leadership and the templar rank and file commit the same atrocities, no other reasonable conclusion can be drawn.

Exactly, keep digging that hole.

[Xilizhra]

Still, it doesn't seem like he personally wanted the mages dead. His efforts seem to have been directed towards keeping them in their cages, and unlike Meredith I don't think he'd have been inclined to kill surrendering mages. If whoever succeeds him is less merciful, that's another problem, but I think ultimately what Lambert wanted was the mages in their cages, with both the mundanes and the other mages protected from them.

Given that all mages are apostates now, I don't think he'd instruct the templars to take any special care in "captures." It's entirely possible that the mages would be seen as too dangerous to recapture.

It might be a good idea to leave Adrian in a ditch, then.

She hasn't been proven to be a danger in warfare. Also, her perspective is useful to keep alongside those like Rhys, with Fiona being the balance point.

And how many of them will turn to blood magic? how many will make (foolish) deals with demons and end up abominations? How many will set themselves up as petty dictators?

Who can say? Of course, I don't see blood magic as a bad thing if used properly. Ultimately, I believe that the rebellion will need strong leadership and unity of command to avoid this kind of thing.

This is what the templars fear, I think. you say teh mages are oganizationally innocent. Of course, at this point there is no mage organization. What's holding them together? Sure a lot, heck most just want to live their lives peacefully. But not all. What kind of damage will they do? How badly will they undermine the cause of mage freedom by illustrating Lambert's point?

We should work to stop this, of course. But we can never compromise with the templars or allow their notions to spread beyond themselves.

[lil yonce]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Still, it doesn't seem like he personally wanted the mages dead. His efforts seem to have been directed towards keeping them in their cages, and unlike Meredith I don't think he'd have been inclined to kill surrendering mages. If whoever succeeds him is less merciful, that's another problem, but I think ultimately what Lambert wanted was the mages in their cages, with both the mundanes and the other mages protected from them.

He also said he would look into reversing the Rite of Tranquility at a later date with Ser Evangeline overseeing the research. He simply wasn't interested in pursuing it when the mages were searching for reasons to rebel.

The Divine helping the mages escape-- She probably believed, like several characters before Pharamond's real killer is revealed, that Lambert planted the evidence against Rhys and used it to shut down the Enchanter's meeting. She probably thought he was entirely unreasonable and unscrupulous.

But IDK. Her thought process or POV is never given. Perhaps we will find out why she made the decision she did in DA3.

[Xilizhra]

The Divine helping the mages escape-- She probably believed, like several characters before Pharamond's real killer is revealed, that Lambert planted the evidence against Rhys and used it to shut down the Enchanter's meeting. She probably thought he was entirely unreasonable and unscrupulous.

And she'd be right. She should have removed him long ago, and certainly not given into the demand about Pharamond.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that all mages are apostates now, I don't think he'd instruct the templars to take any special care in "captures." It's entirely possible that the mages would be seen as too dangerous to recapture.

That really doesn't match the intent of his words.

Who can say? Of course, I don't see blood magic as a bad thing if used properly. Ultimately, I believe that the rebellion will need strong leadership and unity of command to avoid this kind of thing.

I think leadership and infighting will be issues. Three of the fraternities voted against fighting and a very recent ex-Libertarian-- a Libertarian until the morning of the decision-- cast the deciding vote to fight. I don't think that will go over well. There were several Enchaters concerned about how it appeared the Libertarians were trying to decide everything for the Circle at the previous meeting.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And how many of them will turn to blood magic? how many will make (foolish) deals with demons and end up abominations? How many will set themselves up as petty dictators?

Who can say? Of course, I don't see blood magic as a bad thing if used properly. Ultimately, I believe that the rebellion will need strong leadership and unity of command to avoid this kind of thing.

I don't think blood magic is inherently evil either.  But it is a slippery slope, and often leads to disaster.

This is what the templars fear, I think. you say teh mages are oganizationally innocent. Of course, at this point there is no mage organization. What's holding them together? Sure a lot, heck most just want to live their lives peacefully. But not all. What kind of damage will they do? How badly will they undermine the cause of mage freedom by illustrating Lambert's point?

We should work to stop this, of course. But we can never compromise with the templars or allow their notions to spread beyond themselves.

Even if these notions are based on reality?  Heck, may well prove to be true?

[Xilizhra]

I think leadership and infighting will be issues. Three of the fraternities voted against fighting and a very recent ex-Libertarian-- a Libertarian until the morning of the decision-- cast the deciding vote to fight. I don't think that will go over well. There were several Enchaters concerned about how it appeared the Libertarians were trying to decide everything for the Circle at the previous meeting.

If the minorities want to run away from the war and hide, that's their business. If they want to pass information or the like to the templars, they can rest in Hell.

Even if these notions are based on reality?  Heck, may well prove to be true?

Again, that's not currently relevant. The problem is that the templars are a tyrannical, genocidal anachronism, and have to be eradicated. We can't have a nation of prisoners or corpses, after all.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 juin 2013 - 01:45 .

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Finally you show up.

Time is not on my side these days. Between writing, working, video games (and now the occasional drink) I'll probably be on here less then I used to be these days.

Is that so?  I wonder then, why the Fade is not more full.  Or perhaps people degenerate into demons.

Remember, remember, the ruthless Baroness.

Not very catchy, I know. Mea culpa.

  Ah well, the existence of the afterlife kind of puts a damper on Thedas style atheism. :/

Can you explain the last part of your statement? 

Basically if you have an import where Alistair is King and Isabela wasn't shipped off to the Qunari, everything that transpires in the comics is to be canon for that import.

I'm ignoring Sten's fate because no matter what the PC does, Sten does not die. Of course, in this version Sten and Alistair do know each other, but that's hardly a canon changer on such degree as Isabela's/Alistair's fate.

And anytime I see the "My name is no longer Sten!" comic image, I think of Batman slapping Robin heh.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Even if these notions are based on reality?  Heck, may well prove to be true?

Again, that's not currently relevant. The problem is that the templars are a tyrannical, genocidal anachronism, and have to be eradicated. We can't have a nation of prisoners or corpses, after all.

The fact that the Templars might be right doesn't change the fact that they need to be killed rather than compromised with?

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Even if these notions are based on reality?  Heck, may well prove to be true?

Again, that's not currently relevant. The problem is that the templars are a tyrannical, genocidal anachronism, and have to be eradicated. We can't have a nation of prisoners or corpses, after all.

The fact that the Templars might be right doesn't change the fact that they need to be killed rather than compromised with?

The templars are not right that they, or anyone of the Chantry, must be the ones imprisoning the mages. It's about the Templar Order specifically.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Time is not on my side these days. Between writing, working, video games (and now the occasional drink) I'll probably be on here less then I used to be these days.

Remember, remember, the ruthless Baroness.

Not very catchy, I know. Mea culpa.

Basically if you have an import where Alistair is King and Isabela wasn't shipped off to the Qunari, everything that transpires in the comics is to be canon for that import.

I'm ignoring Sten's fate because no matter what the PC does, Sten does not die. Of course, in this version Sten and Alistair do know each other, but that's hardly a canon changer on such degree as Isabela's/Alistair's fate.

And anytime I see the "My name is no longer Sten!" comic image, I think of Batman slapping Robin heh.

It's for the best, this place can be quite toxic.

Haha, alright, fair enough.  Still, that there is a confirmed form of afterlife is entertaining.

Oh, I was talking about how that comic was a part of the game/other media.  I'm sure we'll see some result of that plot elsewhere, but where is even a short cameo or mention of Duty?  Where's the one armed dwarf chilling at the Circle?  Throw in something for a sense of continuity.  :happy:

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Alistair regards himself as a former templar, so I don't see why he doesn't count as a templar companion. He's fairly pro-templar when you speak to him, and even took the Chantry to task for how the organization treated the templars through the use of lyrium.

Also, Dragon Age II vilified mages to the point of stupidity. .

My apostate Hawke didn't even get a mage POV. Hardly anyone noticed my protagonist was a mage, even when he used magic in front of them. The player never has to deal with the pitfalls of being a mage in a society where magic and mages are vilified. Hawke never had to endure the trials and tribulations of being an apostate in a templar controlled city.

As for Asunder, I don't think Lambert was correct.

I don't count him as a templar companion cause I don't feel as if he truly had to do the everyday job of a Templar. It's like he was trained and out of there. I want someone like Cullen who has experienced the good (falling in love with a mage) and the bad (seeing the destruction mages can cause) someone who has had to give up his own freedoms and so on. Not just someone who agrees with them. we had that In Fenris and yeah Alistair too.  I would also like to understand more about the lyrium, how it works with templars, and perhaps see some withdrawls or see how the Templars need it, perhaps witness the lack of support they get for addiction and so on.

DA2 had both mages and templars acting crazy. I don't want that, and it doesn't seem as though the OP wants it.

I agree with the mage Hawke pov, he was able to walk free and clear with no issues, it sucked. they set you up to be afriad of what's to come if you are a mage in Kirkwall yet you have a figh scene when you're using magic right in front of everyone and no one bats an eye. I would have liked to have been taken to the Circle and earn my freedom by being useful with my missions or at least have to hide from Templars if I sneak out. But there also was no Templar pov. You get no templar companions, even if you get Templar training you can't even join the order to get an inside peek as to what life is like in the Circle as a templar. It would have been a change of pace from Kirkwall, Kirkwall, Kirkwall.

As for Lambert. What was he wrong about? He knew what Cole was when everyone else were stupid. he knew the mages were planning a rebellion and that the tranquility research could fuel it. He was right that the Divine was worthless. I'm not seeing anything he got wrong. You can say you disagree with his stance as a Templar.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Is that so?  I wonder then, why the Fade is not more full.  Or perhaps people degenerate into demons.  Ah well, the existence of the afterlife kind of puts a damper on Thedas style atheism. :/ 

It doesn't confirm or deny the existence of a god or a higher power, as Morrigan already explained to Leliana back in Origin, so it does nothing of the sort.