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[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Rather certain that is not the intent of Lambert. Page 396 397 of Asunder he says, "Whatever you do here, you will not be permitted to run free. We will track you down and put you back in your cages, I swear it."

He was rather upset when he said that line-- just to put his harsh wording in better context. 

So, the templar intent isn't to murder every mage at Andoral's Reach. It is to take them back to the Circles. Should the mages refuse to go back, the templars will use force and a battle will ensue.

EDIT: It is actually page 397. 

Right, Lambert also does not kill the mages out of hatred when they rebelled at the College. I think some died by the Templars during the confrontation but it was a fight.  Instead he locks them all up while he continues his investigation on the murders.  The Templars totally had the upper hand and could have gone into each and every mage cell and killed them indivdually if killing mages was all they wanted to do.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

Most people in the Andrastian kingdoms, you mean.

The Qunari say hello.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It doesn't confirm or deny the existence of a god or a higher power, as Morrigan already explained to Leliana back in Origin, so it does nothing of the sort.

Yes, but Morrigan is wrong, as her mother is quite potentially one of those higher powers.  Hence the murderknife finding a final resting place in her gut. 

Though, no spirits we've mentioned have mentioned anything about meeting human ghosts.  If they were hanging around, and they wanted to investigate the mortal world, why not pester the ghosts?

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

Most people in the Andrastian kingdoms, you mean.

The Qunari say hello.

Keep in mind that he said "people."

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

Most people in the Andrastian kingdoms, you mean.

The Qunari say hello. 

Give the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvar, and the Rivaini my regards.

[BlueMagitek]

So now Qunari aren't people?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Even if these notions are based on reality?  Heck, may well prove to be true?

Again, that's not currently relevant. The problem is that the templars are a tyrannical, genocidal anachronism, and have to be eradicated. We can't have a nation of prisoners or corpses, after all.

The fact that the Templars might be right doesn't change the fact that they need to be killed rather than compromised with?

The templars are not right that they, or anyone of the Chantry, must be the ones imprisoning the mages. It's about the Templar Order specifically.

Okay, I see that point. But who else is qualified? The mages? That's a solution, but what happens if they abuse their power? That's part of why the Templars are concerned about the mages being loose. Really, I think the best solution is that the Templar order should be reformed rather than purged. (But for the new, more reasonable Divine, I'd even agree that the Chantry should play no further part.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 02:04 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't confirm or deny the existence of a god or a higher power, as Morrigan already explained to Leliana back in Origin, so it does nothing of the sort.

Yes, but Morrigan is wrong, as her mother is quite potentially one of those higher powers.  Hence the murderknife finding a final resting place in her gut.   

I don't count abominations as higher powers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xilizhra wrote...

We got a much wider range of templars than mages. We saw almost only mages who caused trouble, vs. a fairly wide perspective on templars (the new recruits, some communications from the somewhat seasoned ones, the various icy lieutenants, and the queen of madness herself).

We saw plent of non trouble maker mages too. The essentially harmless Emile du Launcet. Or Ella who is portrayed as innocent as can be. Or Feynriel, who also seems to be a pretty good person. That's not counting Karl or the other victims of the Rite of Tranquility wandering around. Plus the protagonist's own family has mages that have been hiding from the templars their entire life. If the PC isn't a mage themself, then they get a younger sister who is almost as sweet and noble as possible which is supposed to give them a personal stake in the problem anyway. Bethany is almost written as the text book example of a mage who deserves to be free and she's much closer to the PC than just about any other mages in the narrative. Regardless of whether Hawke is a mage or not, he or she will know about Malcom Hawke being a good mage too.

The player also gets two other nage companions that stay with them for the course of the game that while could maybe fit some definitions of trouble maker, they aren't crazed psychopaths in the middle of a rampage and are both framed in a fairly sympathetic light.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 juin 2013 - 02:06 .

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't count abominations as higher powers.

Morrigan says her mother isn't an abomination. ~_^

--

Back to the main topic, I would love for there to be more interaction with the Templar Order.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

Most people in the Andrastian kingdoms, you mean.

The Qunari say hello. 

Give the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvar, and the Rivaini my regards.

Oh, so only the kingdoms the fit your view count.  Got it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know even if it was just most people in the Andrastian kingdoms (and not the Qunari too), that would still technically be "most people."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 juin 2013 - 02:09 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't count abominations as higher powers.

Morrigan says her mother isn't an abomination. ~_^ 

Morrigan doesn't claim Flemeth is a god or a higher power, so I don't see your point.

[Xilizhra]

So now Qunari aren't people?

That was a joke. Though it's only the same courtesy they extend us.

Okay, I see that point. But who else is qualified? The mages? That's a solution, but what happens if they abuse their power? That's part of why the Templars are concerned about the mages being loose. Really, I think the best solution is that the Templar order should be reformed rather than purged. (But for the new, more reasonable Divine, I'd even agree that the Chantry should play no further part.)

Too many bad apples and old ideas in the Order to let it stand. The slate should be wiped clean, with a new idea using a few of the same concepts implemented.

We saw plent of non trouble maker mages too. The essentially harmless Emile du Launcet. Or Ella who is portrayed as innocent as can be. Or Feynriel, who also seems to be a pretty good person. That's not counting Karl or the other victims of the Rite of Tranquility wandering around. Plus the protagonist's own family has mages that have been hiding from the templars their entire life. If the PC isn't a mage themself, then they get a younger sister who is almost as sweet and noble as possible which is supposed to give them a personal stake in the problem anyway. Bethany is almost written as the text book example of a mage who deserves to be free and she's much closer to the PC than just about any other mages in the narrative. Regardless of whether Hawke is a mage or not, he or she will know about Malcom Hawke being a good mage too.

The player also gets two other nage companions that stay with them for the course of the game that while could maybe fit some definitions of trouble maker, they aren't crazed psychopaths in the middle of a rampage and are both framed in a fairly sympathetic light.

Evidently, they weren't implemented well enough to catch the eye of many players. However, under that situation, we saw a decent range of mages as well, they were just insufficiently memorable, for reasons unclear. Either way, however, I believe we did get a good templar range.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Give the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvar, and the Rivaini my regards.

Oh, so only the kingdoms the fit your view count.  Got it. 

That doesn't even make any sense. Pointing out that there are societies that don't hold the same views as the Andrastians living under the Andrastian Chantry was the entire point. I'm not sure why you seem to be so offended by the fact that not every society shares the same disdain and hatred of magic and mages as the kingdoms living under an anti-mage religious organization.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's for the best, this place can be quite toxic.

Haha, alright, fair enough.  Still, that there is a confirmed form of afterlife is entertaining.

Oh, I was talking about how that comic was a part of the game/other media.  I'm sure we'll see some result of that plot elsewhere, but where is even a short cameo or mention of Duty?  Where's the one armed dwarf chilling at the Circle?  Throw in something for a sense of continuity.  :happy:

1) Indeed. It can turn from Rainbow Happy Sunshine Land to a nuclear wasteland in the blink of an eye.

2) I suppose one could view it as an afterlife of a sort, given that the man is dead yet his spirit still retains knowledge of his life and hasn't evaporated into the aether. Even so, it's not a direct confirmation of any sort of religious authority having reality. 

The only religion that has any sense of being legitimate, that we know of, is the Stone (in the sense that it's a sort of living entity). Despite that, there are hints and strong implications that the Creators and the Maker are real as well. 

3) Ah, well the Alistair comics will probably be referenced in future games, 'tis true. As for the Gregoir one being discussed, it probably won't be referenced too much. It'd be nice if DAI threw in a couple references to Gleam or Duty or some events within the comic, but I doubt it'll be brought up. Doesn't mean it's not canon, of course. Just means we shouldn't expect it to be referenced in the game.

[addiction21]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now Qunari aren't people?

They do not subscribe to Xilizhra's  point of view so they cant be people. Always remember you have to agree with him/hew to be given any right as a person. If you do not you have to be forcibly reeducated or wiped from the planet.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now Qunari aren't people?

They do not subscribe to Xilizhra's  point of view so they cant be people. Always remember you have to agree with him/hew to be given any right as a person. If you do not you have to be forcibly reeducated or wiped from the planet.

Xil was kidding around, as opposed to Cullen, who once argued that mages shouldn't be treated like people and dismissed them as weapons.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Give the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvar, and the Rivaini my regards.

Oh, so only the kingdoms the fit your view count.  Got it. 

That doesn't even make any sense. Pointing out that there are societies that don't hold the same views as the Andrastians living under the Andrastian Chantry was the entire point. I'm not sure why you seem to be so offended by the fact that not every society shares the same disdain and hatred of magic and mages as the kingdoms living under an anti-mage religious organization.

You made a blanket statemet and emphasised the Andrastian nations as the ones who feared mages.  I'm not the one who bolded "Andrastian nations" in his post, you are.  I simply showed that Andrastians aren't the only ones who view mages as disproportionately dangerous.  All you had to do was admit your blanket statement was a mistake and clarify that some, though not all, non-Andrastian traditions take a less fear-based approach to Mages.  Though there are none who dismiss the danger that mages pose entirely.

Modifié par TK514, 08 juin 2013 - 02:43 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, I see that point. But who else is qualified? The mages? That's a solution, but what happens if they abuse their power? That's part of why the Templars are concerned about the mages being loose. Really, I think the best solution is that the Templar order should be reformed rather than purged. (But for the new, more reasonable Divine, I'd even agree that the Chantry should play no further part.)

Too many bad apples and old ideas in the Order to let it stand. The slate should be wiped clean, with a new idea using a few of the same concepts implemented.

Okay, but who polices the mages while this new order is being formed?

[Iakus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, I see that point. But who else is qualified? The mages? That's a solution, but what happens if they abuse their power? That's part of why the Templars are concerned about the mages being loose. Really, I think the best solution is that the Templar order should be reformed rather than purged. (But for the new, more reasonable Divine, I'd even agree that the Chantry should play no further part.)

that's actually how the Imperial Chantry came about.  Now the Circles there control everything, the templars have no power, and slaves are used as lab animals for the magisters, if not fuel for their blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't even make any sense. Pointing out that there are societies that don't hold the same views as the Andrastians living under the Andrastian Chantry was the entire point. I'm not sure why you seem to be so offended by the fact that not every society shares the same disdain and hatred of magic and mages as the kingdoms living under an anti-mage religious organization. 

You made a blanket statemet and emphasised the Andrastian nations as the ones who feared mages.  I'm not the one who bolded "Andrastian nations" in his post, you are.

Because most non-Andrastian societies don't share the same views as Andrastians. The only example you were able to provide was the Qunari.

TK514 wrote...

I simply showed that Andrastians aren't the only ones who view mages as disproportionately dangerous.

You mean the people who collar mages, sew their mouths shut, and treat them as animals?

TK514 wrote...

All you had to do was admit your blanket statement was a mistake and clarify that some, though not all, non-Andrastian traditions that take a less fear-based approach to Mages.

My statement was that the Andrastian kingdoms should have been labelled because they are the ones who have a disdain for magic and mages. The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the Rivaini don't share the same views, so the blanket statement that most people in Thedas share the same view as the Andrastians wasn't accurate, as we have non-Andrastian societies where magic and mages aren't seen with the same hatred as in the Andrastian kingdoms.

TK514 wrote...

Though there are none who dismiss that danger mages pose entirely. 

You seem to continually miss the point that not every society is willing to vilify magic or enslave mages.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now Qunari aren't people?

They do not subscribe to Xilizhra's  point of view so they cant be people. Always remember you have to agree with him/hew to be given any right as a person. If you do not you have to be forcibly reeducated or wiped from the planet.

Xil was kidding around, as opposed to Cullen, who once argued that mages shouldn't be treated like people and dismissed them as weapons.

I don't know what is worse. That you actually believe that or treat the rest of us regular forumites like we are so stupid as to believe that tripe.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xil was kidding around, as opposed to Cullen, who once argued that mages shouldn't be treated like people and dismissed them as weapons.

I don't know what is worse. That you actually believe that or treat the rest of us regular forumites like we are so stupid as to believe that tripe.

I can provide a link to the actual scene if you'd like.

[Boycott Bioware]

I have a question, if tevinter mages are so bad, don't they have family value at all?

It is because Mages being born are random, children of Mages could be non Mages, and children of non Mages can be Mages

It doesn't make sense