1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Nole]

So we should let mages be free and rule the rest of the normal people like in Tevinter. Seems legit.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xil was kidding around, as opposed to Cullen, who once argued that mages shouldn't be treated like people and dismissed them as weapons.

I don't know what is worse. That you actually believe that or treat the rest of us regular forumites like we are so stupid as to believe that tripe.

I can provide a link to the actual scene if you'd like.

I know the conversation. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with how both you and xilizhara acting as anyone with a dissenting opinion don't matter.

Which is exactly how you treat Templars, Andrates, and Qunari.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can provide a link to the actual scene if you'd like.

I know the conversation. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with how both you and xilizhara acting as anyone with a dissenting opinion don't matter.

I already said I hope Inquisition allows players from both sides to get what they want from the gaming experience. You might want to make a retort that has something to do with what I actually said next time.

addiction21 wrote...

Which is exactly how you treat Templars, Andrates, and Qunari.

If this thread has shown anything, it's that people on both sides have already formulated an opinion on the matter.

[Boycott Bioware]

So we should let mages be free and rule the rest of the normal people like in Tevinter. Seems legit.

Yes, everyone deserve freedom, and freedom for all. The world is belong to everyone. Only narrow minded peoples say otherwise

Mages and non Mages are families, if Mages are so bad, don't they have families? It is illogical that Mages in Tevinters are so bad because they can be children of non Mages and their children could be non Mages

It just can't be

[Nole]

Qistina wrote...

So we should let mages be free and rule the rest of the normal people like in Tevinter. Seems legit.

Yes, everyone deserve freedom, and freedom for all. The world is belong to everyone. Only narrow minded peoples say otherwise

Mages and non Mages are families, if Mages are so bad, don't they have families? It is illogical that Mages in Tevinters are so bad because they can be children of non Mages and their children could be non Mages

It just can't be

Do you realize that in tevinter the Mages rule over everyone else and have tons of slaves?

[Boycott Bioware]

Do you realize that in tevinter the Mages rule over everyone else and have tons of slaves?

That is Chantry propaganda, and it can't be true, like i said, Mages can be born from non Mages, and Mages can have non Mages children, because it is RANDOM

So how come Mages enslave non Mages while it is their own families can be non Mages and they themselves can be non Mages children?

Another thing, if the Chantry is right about abomination and all, then tevinter Imperium cannot exist because overrun by abominations

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

Do you realize that in tevinter the Mages rule over everyone else and have tons of slaves?

That is Chantry propaganda, and it can't be true, like i said, Mages can be born from non Mages, and Mages can have non Mages children, because it is RANDOM

Fathers have enslaved their children irl. Take an American history course.

Besides which, there is stated to be a class of freedmen in Tevinter; Fenris's price for the procedure was adding his mother and sister to it, remember? Not everyone is either a magister or a slave.

Finally, the process is not totally random. Family connections seem to have some correlation. I'm picturing Fenris's face if he and Hawke start having kids, and he realizes the kid has a mage aunt on each side. Seriously, he might even make an actual facial expression.

So how come Mages enslave non Mages while it is their own families can be non Mages and they themselves can be non Mages children?

Again, take an American history course.

Another thing, if the Chantry is right about abomination and all, then tevinter Imperium cannot exist because overrun by abominations

We have from Gaider that the Tevinter system is similar in many respects to the White Chantry system. Which means that to a large extent, the current Tevinter Imperium is safe from mages for the same reason the White Chantry's lands are.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 03:44 .

[Nole]

Qistina wrote...

Do you realize that in tevinter the Mages rule over everyone else and have tons of slaves?

That is Chantry propaganda, and it can't be true, like i said, Mages can be born from non Mages, and Mages can have non Mages children, because it is RANDOM

We will see in DA3.

[LobselVith8]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Do you realize that in tevinter the Mages rule over everyone else and have tons of slaves?

Technically, the Magisters rule, as we have mages and non-mages who are slaves in the Imperium.

[addiction21]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

 something to do with what I actually said next time.

[quote]

You first.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


If this thread has shown anything, it's that people on both sides have already formulated an opinion on the matter.[/quote]

If this thread (and many of the other (threads) has shown anything its both you and Xilizhra are zealots. That you both will happily derail any thread that dares to be anything other then demonizing all Templars and place all mages as victims.

Like I have said before you both embody everything you claim to detest.

[Xilizhra]

If this thread (and many of the other (threads) has shown anything its both you and Xilizhra are zealots. That you both will happily derail any thread that dares to be anything other then demonizing all Templars and place all mages as victims.

Like I have said before you both embody everything you claim to detest.

Ah? Intriguing. Do tell me when I advocated for killing/imprisoning people based solely on biological status.

[Boycott Bioware]

Fathers have enslaved their children irl. Take an American history course.

Enlighten me about it, please

Besides which, there is stated to be a class of freedmen in Tevinter; Fenris's price for the procedure was adding his mother and sister to it, remember? Not everyone is either a magister or a slave.

I doubt Fenris is a real character, he is actually not important at all in the interrogation and the big picture of what happen in Kirkwal. Detached from everything. At least Merill have because she's a Blood Mage, but Fenris is nothing to do with anything. I can assume Fenris is a character created by Varric to add spices for his story, he's not even real

If he real, Fenris account is not viable, he hate Mages because he hate Denarius, he and Denarius having an affair, everything he told us about Tevinter is what the Chantry told us about Tevinter. And also he's jealous with her sister. Similar with Carver who is jealous with Hawke and Bethany because they have power, he don't have any.

Fenris claim he was a slave but his character is not a slave character, a former slave don't have a character like him. Look at Spartacus for example. Fenris do not fight for slaves liberty or something, he fight for himself, that is not a former slave attitude.

We have from Gaider that the Tevinter system is similar in many respects to the White Chantry system. Which means that to a large extent, the current Tevinter Imperium is safe from mages for the same reason the White Chantry's lands are.

Really, but the propaganda said Mages are at anytime can become abomination or bat**** insane that lead to doing whatever evil things at any time. Logically Tevinter Imperium cannot even exist in history because it is overun by psychotic insane Mages doing experiments and sacrifice peoples for the lulz, abominations and demons that going rampage everywhere spilling blood whenever they want ect ect ect...

Fenriel could be dead becoming some evil psychotic magister lab rat when he first time set foot in Tevinter

[Ryzaki]

...and you clearly do not understand Fenris at all if you're saying he's jealous of his sister (that he's not even aware of exists til act 3).

Not enough facepalms in the world.

[Big I]

WittingEight65 wrote...
So we should let mages be free and rule the rest of the normal people like in Tevinter. Seems legit.

Is that better or worse than the rest of Thedas being ruled by nobles and monarchies?

[Boycott Bioware]

...and you clearly do not understand Fenris at all if you're saying he's jealous of his sister (that he's not even aware of exists til act 3).

Not enough facepalms in the world.

No, he lie

When you talk with him about Bethany (Hawke a Mage), he said "THAT SOUND FAMILIAR"

He remember his sister all the time from ACT 1

Modifié par Qistina, 08 juin 2013 - 05:27 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm gone for a day or two and this thread has gone from page 3 or 4 to page 12, ah well, I just finished reading every page. ugh, that took awhile.

Let's take a step back and make a few common-sense comments here.

In the DA2 forums, Lotion, the Original Poster, has made some very disparaging remarks that have colored any post he makes by those who have tried debating him in the past, including but not limited to, his openly calling mage supporters idiots by virtue of supporting mages, absolutely refusing to present evidence to support his own arguments (I actually asked politely a few times to try and maintain an honest intellectual pursuit and debate, and he shot me down flat) and pretty much said anyone who didn't agree with his views on mages and templars were idiots and lacked common-sense. So at least bear in mind that mage-supporters who dismiss or outright ignore Lotion's comments out of hand come from those debates, and their opinions of him have already been colored by his posts and attitude in the past.

I would also like to point out that nearly everyone here has played DA2 or at least has a decent amount of knowledge of it, and thanks to the two extremes the mages and templars were presented in, firmly placed their opinions on the matter, with MisterJB and Youth4Ever being on the templars side (and I think it's really fun to debate them as they take my posts seriously and makes for a strong intellectual exercise.)

I would also like to add that the developers admitted to adding Orsino as a boss fight simply for the sake of adding another boss, and they agree they went over the top with the insane mages and they were actively trying to get gamers to agree with templars more because they felt that people sided with mages as a matter of course in Origins.

That said, the original letter that stands on its own merits, I personally like it and for reasons of plot and characterization, would love to see a templar in that capacity. Heck, I would love to see Cullen argue against becoming a templar to a potential recruit, citing his own torture at the hands of Uldred and his doubts after serving under Meredith. Or something similar. I would love to see two strongly developed mage and templar NPCs, who fight each other because of their unwillingness to betray their principles, rather than any demon or abuse of power.

I would love to see some well developed templar characters that you can sympathize with, but still openly disagree with as a matter of principle...

....say for example, a templar who was raised in a small farming community and had allergies, so he couldn't work the fields and joined the Chantry and the Templars as a way to support his family, as they weren't many alternatives that he could do, and he feels conflicted about his duties seeing as he has a relative who is a mage, but if he quits then his family starves as they are poor and pay a heavy tax thanks to a lord, so he does a dirty job which he can quit at any time as being a templar is a choice, but he lacks the skill-set or the health to take many other jobs, and then add in the addiction to lyrium, and presto, you have a sympathetic templar you may or may not agree with.

As an English Literature major in college, I love good characterization and strong plots, with plenty of twists and turns, even if I disagree with something or hate a character, if they are well developed and have strong motivations, I can respect the character and their place in the plot, as well as the talent of the writer and voice-actor to make me empathize or despise a certain character, and as long as that happens, I'll likely be happy.

Now I support mages in general as I have a strong belief that freedom and liberty takes priority over security, and I'll likely support the mages in Inquisition as a matter of principle, especially since the Chantry isn't declaring war, but rather the templars have left the Chantry so they can commit genocide, but I'm open to playing a pro-templar side and openly admit that the mages are quite likely going to do some pretty nasty things to survive the templars trying to eradicate them, even without the demons and abominations and blood magic that WILL happen.

I will close this by stating a few things on my stance on mages and templars, to make my own position perfectly clear.

1) I don't trust mages to police themselves. I don't trust ANY organization to police itself, period. You get a card pyramid and with a weak foundation, things will soon crumble, human desire and ambition will always be a factor, no matter the system, without adding demons. So any system that will be set up that I support will NOT have mages running the show.

Fenris makes it clear when we talk to him about Tevinter (and taking into account that his view is quite biased) some battles are lost by inches, and Tevinter surrendered on their terms. I would also like to note that I have never read anywhere that Andraste and her armies ever defeated the Imperium, only liberated the southern nations, so that part of Fenris' statements are true. Add in the slavery and open practice of blood magic from Denarius and that magister taking the elven slaves in Origins, I'm also accepting of his other statements as well.

If a system of nothing but mages were in charge, we would ultimately have something similar to Tevinter, or a completely different system that gives mages all the advantages, seeing as the Andrastian nations have a different culture than Tevinter itself.

(On a side note: I recognize there are other societies that have free mages that have not turned into Tevinter. The Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivaini, the Dalish, and have used them in my arguments in the past, but I ultimately don't trust any system where one demographic has ALL the power.)

2) The templar order and the Chantry as an institution have already proven over the past thousand years that they cannot be trusted to watch over and guard mages. They have become way too corrupt as an organization to be trusted. From the templars having next to no oversight of their actions, the quality of life in each individual circle being dependent on the Knight-Commander stationed there, the Seekers (Lambert being the head of them) more interested in wiping out mages or supporting templars, keeping them from actively doing their job, which is to oversee the templars and prevent abuse of power. The Divine's inability to control the templars and seekers, added in to her lack of popularity in the Chantry itself due to her position of mages (Lambert and several others considered having her killed so someone more agreeable to their ideas would be in charge.) The church itself actively preaches that magic is a curse (also a gift, but that part feels skimmed over and barely talked about) and actively villifies magic as evil, calling mages evil and cursed by their very nature of existence, and blames them for the darkspawn's existence.

(On a side note: I think there's more evidence that the dwarves are more responsible for the existence of darkspawn than the magisters, but I feel there is also plenty of evidence that implies they are responsible for the awakened darkspawn.)

Because their hatred of mages and magic is part of their very doctrine, added in to their history and close connections with the Orlesian aristocracy, as an institution, the templars and the chantry are poor defenders and watchers of mages.

Thus, we need a third group, or a system of checks and balances that keep any group from having power over the others to monitor mages.

3) I believe that mages should be required to go through training with their magic. You can have simple cases such as Wynne lighting a bully's head on fire as a child, or in the traumatic events in Redcliff, with Connor and the Desire demon (and there are so many factors that happened there that it can't all be blamed on Connor or Isolde or what have you.) An untrained mage is dangerous to himself and to those around him, and an ignorant mage dealing with demons is a VERY REAL danger.

On that topic, I believe that the danger of demons is quite real, but not nearly as dangerous as the Chantry and some templar supporters believe. Fenyriel is the exception seeing as he is a dreamer, and thus is one of the very select few who can enter the Fade at will without blood magic or lyrium, thus making him a beacon to demons. But every human, elf, Kossith, or what have you (except dwarves) enter the fade nightly. They are called dreamers in Origins (not Somni'ari) who enter the Fade and remain unaware, unlike the mages who have the capacity, through lyrium or blood magic, to enter aware and conscious. It is when they're aware in the Fade that they're in the most danger of demonic possession, or in cases where the demon already has a foothold in the real world, in which case nearly everyone and everything is fair game to the demon, not just the mage. (Shades being formed after possessing.....nothing, sylvans are possessed trees, werewolves are created by a possessed wolf, etc.)

4) We need a group similar to the templars, or at least have their abilities to combat mage criminals or rogue mage elements. No matter how you slice it, there are bad apples in every barrel, and you need a group specifically trained to handle bad mages. Got a blood mage in a town, using mind control, you need a templar and probably a mage to use the litany of Adralla to combat that particular mage. You have a mage gone rogue who isn't a blood mage, you need the ability to negate his magic when he's throwing fireballs at you.

That was kind of a tangent, and way off topic, but for those who don't know me, I felt it's best to give a clear case on where I stand and where I have always stood, and when I debate you or add to comments, you know exactly where I'm coming from and if you are respectful, use evidence from the novels, comics or games, I shall have no problems whatsoever with you and may even friend you. If you are dismissive and lack respect for my arguments, I will likely ignore you and not respond to your comments, and no one will be bothered either way. Problem solved. lol

[Ryzaki]

Qistina wrote...

...and you clearly do not understand Fenris at all if you're saying he's jealous of his sister (that he's not even aware of exists til act 3).

Not enough facepalms in the world.

No, he lie

When you talk with him about Bethany (Hawke a Mage), he said "THAT SOUND FAMILIAR"

He remember his sister all the time from ACT 1

[Boycott Bioware]

Ryzaki wrote...

Qistina wrote...

...and you clearly do not understand Fenris at all if you're saying he's jealous of his sister (that he's not even aware of exists til act 3).

Not enough facepalms in the world.

No, he lie

When you talk with him about Bethany (Hawke a Mage), he said "THAT SOUND FAMILIAR"

He remember his sister all the time from ACT 1

Play Mage Hawk, then talk about Bethany at ACT 1, you will find out everything about Fenris is a lie. He just want to use Hawk asa support againt Denarius, despite his boasting he is actually weak and fear Denarius, he jealous because Denarius give attention to his sister instead of him. All about slavery and everything else is a LIE

If you refuse to fight Denarius, he will follow Denarius without a fight at all...so wtf with what he whining and boasting about all these time?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

Fathers have enslaved their children irl. Take an American history course.

Enlighten me about it, please

You're serious? Even accounting for the fact that I know you're not American, I thought everyone knew that story.

Besides which, there is stated to be a class of freedmen in Tevinter; Fenris's price for the procedure was adding his mother and sister to it, remember? Not everyone is either a magister or a slave.

I doubt Fenris is a real character, he is actually not important at all in the interrogation and the big picture of what happen in Kirkwal. Detached from everything. At least Merill have because she's a Blood Mage, but Fenris is nothing to do with anything. I can assume Fenris is a character created by Varric to add spices for his story, he's not even real

That sounds like a stretch.

If he real, Fenris account is not viable, he hate Mages because he hate Denarius, he and Denarius having an affair, everything he told us about Tevinter is what the Chantry told us about Tevinter. And also he's jealous with her sister. Similar with Carver who is jealous with Hawke and Bethany because they have power, he don't have any.

You cite Fenris's agreement with the Chantry on the way Tevinter is as evidence he is dishonest, despite the fact that it lines up with what we see of Caladrius as well. Maybe you have it backwards?

Fenris claim he was a slave but his character is not a slave character, a former slave don't have a character like him. Look at Spartacus for example. Fenris do not fight for slaves liberty or something, he fight for himself, that is not a former slave attitude.

I think it lines up reasonably well with a slave who got a taste of freedom and decided he liked it. His reaction to the slave girl asking "Are you my master now?" was an especially funny bit. (Maybe that tells you something about my sense of humor.)

We have from Gaider that the Tevinter system is similar in many respects to the White Chantry system. Which means that to a large extent, the current Tevinter Imperium is safe from mages for the same reason the White Chantry's lands are.

Really, but the propaganda said Mages are at anytime can become abomination or bat**** insane that lead to doing whatever evil things at any time. Logically Tevinter Imperium cannot even exist in history because it is overun by psychotic insane Mages doing experiments and sacrifice peoples for the lulz, abominations and demons that going rampage everywhere spilling blood whenever they want ect ect ect...

If you want to get technical, they can turn at any time. It's just that most mages don't turn, and the ones who are any good are very unlikely to, hence why I say it's reasonably safe for Senior Enchanters to walk around and mingle. And since Tevinter ones we see in person are Magisters, and thus among the best Tevinter has to offer, one can reasonably say that they won't hurt anybody unless that person makes them want to.

Fenriel could be dead becoming some evil psychotic magister lab rat when he first time set foot in Tevinter

Nope. He has enough power (and a unique enough power) that he's more useful to the Magister who finds him as a (hopefully grateful) apprentice.

[Hazegurl]

Qistina wrote...

I doubt Fenris is a real character,

Technically they are all not real being game characters and all. But in Varric's story, yes he is. Merrill is no more important than he is. Where are the Templars knocking on her door?

If he real, Fenris account is not viable, he hate Mages because he hate Denarius, he and Denarius having an affair, everything he told us about Tevinter is what the Chantry told us about Tevinter. And also he's jealous with her sister. Similar with Carver who is jealous with Hawke and Bethany because they have power, he don't have any.

He lived in Tevinter, was a slave, was raped, witnessed maged climb to the top by any means necessary which was off the blood and death of the innocent. We have witnessed him chase down Tevinter mages, watched him get attacked by Tevinter mages, we have witnessed an innocent slave girl give an account of how her father was murdered and bled to fuel magic, we saw the remains of the deed itself during the same quest. We saw him get set up by his own sister so that she could climb to the top. I would think Fenris provides us with a lot of info on the nightmare of being a slave in Tevinter. He and Danrious were NOT having an affair and no he was not jealous of his sister. Just because Anders says it does not make it true.

Fenris claim he was a slave but his character is not a slave character, a former slave don't have a character like him. Look at Spartacus for example. Fenris do not fight for slaves liberty or something, he fight for himself, that is not a former slave attitude.

How on earth do you know how a slave is supposed to act? Considering that Fenris doesn't have thousands of Tevinter slaves following his orders all he can do is fight for himself.

Really, but the propaganda said Mages are at anytime can become abomination or bat**** insane that lead to doing whatever evil things at any time. Logically Tevinter Imperium cannot even exist in history because it is overun by psychotic insane Mages doing experiments and sacrifice peoples for the lulz, abominations and demons that going rampage everywhere spilling blood whenever they want ect ect ect...

How do you know they don't have those things? They most likely do but they are able to put them down or weak mages get locked down and killed for their blood faster than they can summon a demon. You have to be pretty darn insane to butcher a child to impress people at a dinner party. Considering the fact that this behavior seems to be the norm in the mage runned Tevinter then I'm quite sure tea parties with demons are the norm too.

Fenriel could be dead becoming some evil psychotic magister lab rat when he first time set foot in Tevinter

Considering the fact that he's a powerful dream which is rare, I think that won't happen. They do seem to value usefulness and power in Tevinter. If he plays his cards right and start scarificing some slaves and using his dream skills completely he'll be successful in no time. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah thanks for doing that Haze. My brain was kind of broken.

[Hazegurl]

I honestly think Qistina is a subtle troll. lol!!

Modifié par Hazegurl, 08 juin 2013 - 06:05 .

[Reznore57]

Well I think Qistina is a reincarnation of Nizaris.

And of course everything about Fenris being a slave was A LIE!
I mean that's why Tevinter bounty Hunter attack him , and call him slave.
That's why Danarius call him slave , and try to buy him like he's a bag of potatoes.
Slave must be a pet name or something.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hazegurl wrote...

I honestly think Qistina is a subtle troll. lol!!

I have seen worse. (And been worse, but I save the trolling for other sites.)

[Dave of Canada]

Fenris is actually in love with Danarius, they're both into S&M and Fenris wanted to play hard to get.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 juin 2013 - 06:25 .