1081 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Well said, OP. Extremely.

[Asdrubael Vect]

dragonflight288 wrote...


The templars as an order have existed long before they were part of the chantry. They were called the Inquisition way back then, and they were a specialized mage hunting force, feared by mages and non-mages alike.

The Chantry itself didn't rise with Andraste, but over a century after her death, and was merely one of many Andrastian cults that Emperor Drakon of Orlais liked, and through exalted marches and brute force, was able to expand the Chantry, and thus Orlais' influence worldwide and many mage supporters have strong reservations about any organization that has gotten in bed with the Chantry when the Chantry itself is in bed with Orlais and has been from its inception. If you read Thedas Calender codex entry, you will see that the Divine actually was going to name the new Age the Sun Age as a way to celebrate Orlesian supremacy, but when a High Dragon surfaced, she swiftly named the new Age the Dragon Age, but rumors went around that she was actually supporting the Orlesian ruler of Ferelden as the Battle of River Daine was about to occur, and his crest was a dragon.

If you take both accounts on the fall of the Dales, Dalish and Chantry side both, it paints a rather poor picture of the templars and the Chantry when the Dalish said that they turned away the missionaries, and when missionaries failed, templars came next. We know from codex enries that the Emperor of Orlais wanted to move North to Nevarra, but the Dales were in the way. We also know that Orlais had just gone through a lengthy blight and was in great need of fertile land, something the Dales had in abundance.

We know that Orlais went to war, were repelled, then the Dalish attacked, and they made it to Val Reyeoux when the Chantry declared an Exalted March, calling in templars from all nations and obliterated the Dalish, taking their homeland. And it was the Chantry that declared all the elves now had to live in alienages and absolutely had to convert to the worship of the Maker, or die, pretty much.

As an organization, the templars rely heavily upon the addictive substance of lyrium, and depending on which lore you use, either augments their templar powers, or provides it, or in Alistair case, he openly doubts its ability to even do that and thinks the Chantry uses it as a leash to keep their templars in line seeing as he never used lyrium. (I know Gaider tried to say lyrium IS needed, but fact of the matter is that the lore is as it is in Origins, and Alistair did say what he did, and so we have confusion on that front.) And the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, and so if the templars wish to gain access to more lyrium, they'll be razing the land and cause problems for all the people, because smuggling is not only a dirty business, but smugglers lack the capacity to supply an entire army their lyrium, and since the templars have left the Chantry so they can commit genocide, they've lost their access to lyrium.

Which means you'll have an army of drug-addicted religious zealots running around and will likely go insane from lyrium withdrawal or possibly die, and that in turn will make them desperate and it's not only mages but also the common man who will suffer as the templars go on their quest for lyrium.

On an institutional level, the templars, even when they were the inquisition, hated mages and magic simply for being mages, and were feared not only by mages but also by non-mages before being absorbed into the Chantry because of their stance on mages, and so the order, while claiming to be protecters and defenders of mages from the world and the world from mages, have always been biased against mages from the beginning.

The templar codex says it looks for those of religious fervor above those of moral character for recruitment because they don't want templars questioning their orders, and having so much power over time has given the order itself a strong sense of entitlement. This is shown in many instances where Cullen says the Divine will have no choice but to support templars becase they have authority over mages by Divine Right (and I'd love for him to point that out for me in the Chant of Light seeing as templars didn't even exist when Andraste wrote the Chant,) or by Lambert and the Seekers, supposedly the templars oversight-committee, working their butts off so they can be templars themselves and are actively suppressing mages at the College of Magi (doesn't help the mages that Fiona is so strong-willed and quite controversial.) 

So what we have is a drug-addcted army full of religious zealots watched over by an order of mageaphobe Seekers, all of them hating and fearing mages for being alive, many of them openly discussing killing mages with glee (Cullen in Origins, Meredith and the Right of Annulment....you can't say she didn't want it as the moment she had the authority she declared it and wouldn't look for any alternatives, even up to the slaughter itself and sounded happy about it,) who have hated mages from the very beginning, while the Seekers are led by a man who grew up in Tevinter, and thus has the most negative view of mages you can get, and a willingness to go against the Divine's orders and his own duties in response to that fear, both organizations are part of a religious order that is strongly political and strongly pro-Orlesian, so strong in fact that Maric and Loghain actually seriously considered kicking out the the Chantry from Ferelden because it was seen as an Orlesian organization more than a religious one.

Ultimately leading to a system where the mages have no real power for themselves, only the illusion of it, with the threat of lobotomy and genocide hanging over them at every turn by an organization that makes it no secret that they and the Chantry only barely tolerate magic as it is, and thus the mages are never going to be equal players in the game of deciding their own fates, and the templar order (and the Chantry) should step down as mages guardians and overseers, and allow another group with similar abilities but less baggage take over, and also allow mages a bit more say in how they live their lives, including the right to marry without special permission, raise their own children, or even enter a trade provided they have gone through all the training necessary to control their power.

Was that more persuasive?

+∞ thank you

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 08 juin 2013 - 02:09 .

[billy the squid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Sutamina wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
At this point, stepping down from power.

could you come up with something far more persuasive please

Let me try.

ahem.

*snip*

Was that more persuasive?

Sorry I missed that, I was distracted by the manipulation and aggressive attacks by certain factions within the Circle their inability to control their own people, violent uprising despite the Divine being a sympathiser and Wynne trying to work with the Chantry, leading to the Templars seeing the Chantry as defunct and incapable of maintaining order and moving to re establish order by force.

Let alone the inherrent risk posed by Mages moving in and out of free society. I can't wait until one wants to enter politics and is discovered to have been practicing blood magic in a move to assert political dominance, vindicating everything the Templars have moved to prevent. Especially given the catalogue of disasters which have been attributed to a single mage, even under tutilage, which results in an escalating body count.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
And as for you Lotion you have only gained my contempt and i will use you only to amuse me, 

The feeling is mutual.

Now if you're done, the door is that away.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I already said I hope Inquisition allows players from both sides to get what they want from the gaming experience. You might want to make a retort that has something to do with what I actually said next time. 

You first.

Considering what I wrote above, I'm honestly not sure why you wrote the following.

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If this thread has shown anything, it's that people on both sides have already formulated an opinion on the matter.

If this thread (and many of the other (threads) has shown anything its both you and Xilizhra are zealots. That you both will happily derail any thread that dares to be anything other then demonizing all Templars and place all mages as victims.

Like I have said before you both embody everything you claim to detest. 

You realize this entire rant of yours is contradicted by the fact that I already said I hope that pro-templar players get content in Inquisition that appeals to them, right?

[Hazegurl]

Sutamina wrote...

Ryzaki wrote... I refuse to believe anyone could be this dense. Refuse.

Sadly it seems some people really can be so dense. Willful blindness or just not caring about the consequenses for some individuals no arguements provided will ever convince them.

The level of stupidity coming from him make it so hard to accept. I mean he's able to use the internet and actually type some words, phrases, and sentences. Oi vey.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 08 juin 2013 - 04:40 .

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I dont think I have ever witnessed a Templar-supporter claiming that the Templars are having the moral highground. Most of us usually admit that it is a dirty job, but that it is a job that is neccesary.

Thats moral high ground.

Well, it's better than straight up declaring you have higher morals and more intelligence than Templar supporters. As I have witnessed mutiple times on this forum.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Now Lobsel is here too.

Great. The mage supremacist brigade is here in full force to ruin another thread.
People, do everyone a favor and ignore them. Do not argue about their view of tempalrs/mages with them. It is pointless.

People who strongly disagree with the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't mage supremacists.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Now Lobsel is here too.

Great. The mage supremacist brigade is here in full force to ruin another thread.
People, do everyone a favor and ignore them. Do not argue about their view of tempalrs/mages with them. It is pointless.

People who strongly disagree with the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order aren't mage supremacists.

They aren't necessarily mage supremacists. There are anti-Chantry and anti-templars fellows who are mage supremacists in BSN. I don't believe you're one of them though.

[Hazegurl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Many of the people who have voiced their opinions here have interacted with Lotion for well over a year now. I think the reaction would be different if someone like Sir JK had created this thread instead.

In other words, you admit you didn't so much react and post in this thread as you did because of what I wrote, but because you do not like me and what you THOUGHT I was trying to achive?

Good to know you are so superficial and insecure and you HAVE TO jump on any oportunity ot talk smack about me or the templars.

But there is one good thing in all this:
Knowing that You and Xil hate me so means I am doing something very right.

From this point on I'm ignoring all of your posts that do not follow the topic. I urge everyone else to do the same.

Lob will pretty much reply to you about something you've never even said because he already has a preemptive argument ready. It usually involves him stating over and over about what his Surana Warden said or how "All mages should be free from the oppressive templars." Nothing new here.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Many of the people who have voiced their opinions here have interacted with Lotion for well over a year now. I think the reaction would be different if someone like Sir JK had created this thread instead.

In other words, you admit you didn't so much react and post in this thread as you did because of what I wrote, but because you do not like me and what you THOUGHT I was trying to achive?

I'm saying that people react in a certain way about this thread because of your deplorable behavior over the years, which doesn't seem to have changed because you attacked me even though I already stated in this thread that I think pro-templar players should get content for their pro-templar characters.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Good to know you are so superficial and insecure and you HAVE TO jump on any oportunity ot talk smack about me or the templars.

I've already stated that I think Inquisition should have content for pro-templar players. That doesn't mean I agree with the position that pro-templar players like Sir JK hold, but I don't think they should be excluded from enjoying the game and having content that appeals to them.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But there is one good thing in all this:
Knowing that You and Xil hate me so means I am doing something very right.

From this point on I'm ignoring all of your posts that do not follow the topic. I urge everyone else to do the same.

You're welcome to ignore me entirely, if you prefer.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In other words, you admit you didn't so much react and post in this thread as you did because of what I wrote, but because you do not like me and what you THOUGHT I was trying to achive?

I'm saying that people react in a certain way about this thread because of your deplorable behavior over the years, which doesn't seem to have changed because you attacked me even though I already stated in this thread that I think pro-templar players should get content for their pro-templar characters.

My behavior deplorable?
Maybe you should look at your past record before speaking up.
You aren't doing yourself any favors by trying to de-rail this trad either.

You're welcome to ignore me entirely, if you prefer.

I wish I could. Sadly, there is no such function on this forum.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lob will pretty much reply to you about something you've never even said because he already has a preemptive argument ready. It usually involves him stating over and over about what his Surana Warden said or how "All mages should be free from the oppressive templars." Nothing new here.  

You'll have to excuse me for addressing facts from the game as parts of my discussion, as opposed to making snide remarks about pro-mage players and, as Silfren put it, the "circle jerk" you engage in for entire pages with your fellow pro-templar players instead of contributing to actual discussions.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm saying that people react in a certain way about this thread because of your deplorable behavior over the years, which doesn't seem to have changed because you attacked me even though I already stated in this thread that I think pro-templar players should get content for their pro-templar characters.

My behavior deplorable?
Maybe you should look at your past record before speaking up.
You aren't doing yourself any favors by trying to de-rail this trad either.

A number of people have already addressed this is why they don't take your thread at face value, which is also what other posters in this thread have pointed out as well. You're not really doing yourself any favors by vilifying pro-mage players as mage supremacists, either.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to ignore me entirely, if you prefer.

I wish I could. Sadly, there is no such function on this forum. 

You say that I'm bringing things off-topic, but you're actively engaging me in an off-topic discussion.

[GodWood]

EntropicAngel wrote...
WEEEEEELL, this is going well.

Any way we can pull this one out of the fire? Will anyone take the higher ground?

There is no higher ground then the truth of the Qun.

Anaan esaam Qun.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juin 2013 - 05:16 .

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

WEEEEEELL, this is going well.

Any way we can pull this one out of the fire? Will anyone take the higher ground?

Fair enough, EntropicAngel. This discussion isn't really going anywhere productive as it is.

[TK514]

*deleted*  There's clearly something wrong in this escalation, and I choose not to continue in this fashion.  I'll contact you directly, LobselVith8, because I'd like us to be able to have interesting conversations rather than exasperated back and forths

Modifié par TK514, 08 juin 2013 - 05:31 .

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Lob will pretty much reply to you about something you've never even said because he already has a preemptive argument ready. It usually involves him stating over and over about what his Surana Warden said or how "All mages should be free from the oppressive templars." Nothing new here.  

You'll have to excuse me for addressing facts from the game as parts of my discussion, as opposed to making snide remarks about pro-mage players and, as Silfren put it, the "circle jerk" you engage in for entire pages with your fellow pro-templar players instead of contributing to actual discussions.

You rarely address facts, only facts as you see fit to present. I remember having an entire discussion with you once where you outright stated so called facts which were nothing more than you copying and pasting sentences together out of context. And simply agreeing with another poster and lightening the mood  is hardly a circle jerk. And it certainly doesn't compare to most of you mage supporters practially blowing each other everytime you make a post. 

[Angrywolves]

The perspective involves genocide. I am against it.Period.

[Asdrubael Vect]

GodWood wrote...
There is no higher ground then the truth of the Qun.

Anaan esaam Qun.

Teth a maraas imekari. Basra vashedan ataash varin kata, anaan esaam talan bas saarebas. Ashkost say anaan taam Tevinter, asit talan kadan.
Meravas, maraas shokra, panahadan.

[Hazegurl]

GodWood wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
WEEEEEELL, this is going well.

Any way we can pull this one out of the fire? Will anyone take the higher ground?

There is no higher ground then the truth of the Qun.

Anaan esaam Qun.

[Lulupab]

You guys are simply wasting your time with this unproductive debate. There was a templar who helped Hawke's father Malcolm escape from circle and the letter we find in the game indicates he was a very good man and a templar. But all the templars who are good are technically not a templar anymore since "good templars" are mocked for going soft on the mages and sometimes they are not even counted a templar anymore.

We don't have a problem with Templars as a person, but we have problem with the order itself and how it forces its methods. When a Templar stops being one, nothing happens he simply loses a title. But a mage can't become a mundane, its either tranquility which does not really make them a mundane since they can still enchant stuff and etc which is magic or simply kill them.

Templars gone rouge because they expected especial treatment from the divine but she sees everyone including the mages as makers creation and treats them equally. Now we will have to see how many Templars will stay loyal when the chantry does not pay them money and lyrium.

Modifié par Rassler, 08 juin 2013 - 05:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A number of people have already addressed this is why they don't take your thread at face value, which is also what other posters in this thread have pointed out as well. You're not really doing yourself any favors by vilifying pro-mage players as mage supremacists, either.

A number of people who themselves are viewed the same way by other people (and whos oppinions I couldn't care less about), making the whole point moot.

Mage-supremacist? Never said that.

So you and your buddies might want to stop de-railing this thread.
It was your camp that started this de-rail, and while some of the pro-templars here aren't helping, you sure as hell aren't either.

Also, I find it funny that you lot claim I don't have anything of worth to say, yet still keep visiting these threads.
If my threads are so worthless, ignore them.

You say that I'm bringing things off-topic, but you're actively engaging me in an off-topic discussion.

Guilty as charged. I should have ignored you given you are actively trying to start it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 08 juin 2013 - 05:56 .

[Hazegurl]

Parshaara

Back on topic of the Templar perspective

I just thought up a pretty good idea for a Templar companion or NPC we can help ingame. A templar who has lost his loved one in a mage rebellion. But later its revealed that the loved one if his child who was a mage. So he's conflicted between his duties as a Templar and grief stricken at the lost of his child. Although I don't want it to be a Thrask thing where his solution is automatically side with mages. I would want more conflict with the character. Perhaps his child weren't killed by Templars but by Mages. Like the mages rebelled, his child stepped forward to protect his father and was killed. It could show how a mage supporting Templar who was working on the inside because of his son or daughter could then be conflicted by the entire ordeal because of his loss.