1081 réponses à ce sujet

[BlazingSpeed]

MR_PN wrote...

well we had Evangeline in asunder. she talks about her duty being to protect mages, I really liked that, it kind of changed my outlook on the Templars. if we have a Templar in da3 I would hope it would be her and not Cullen.

[Snook]

I'd definitely like something like this. Well done, OP.

MR_PN wrote...

well we had Evangeline in asunder. she talks about her duty being to protect mages, I really liked that, it kind of changed my outlook on the Templars. if we have a Templar in da3 I would hope it would be her and not Cullen.

As much as I loved Evangeline I think I'd rather she have a cameo along with Rhys rather than a full-blown companion.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 06 juin 2013 - 11:43 .

[Chanda]

I think it's great. It (or something like it) should definitely be in Inquisition.

Bioware:

[Xilizhra]

We have all the templar perspective we need.
Right here.

But, I have no real opposition to it. It really doesn't matter what self-serving drivel the honorless write to their loved ones; they'll fall just the same.

I would actually love to see that in Inquisition. We have plenty of
corrupt and bad templars in DA2, and almost every bad mage in DA2 was
either insane or driven to desperation by the corrupt templars.

There's no such thing as a templar who's both not corrupt and not bad. The good ones, like Thrask and Keran, are corrupt. Everyone else is bad.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 03:26 .

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, I thought it would be obvious, but apparently it's not so, to clarify; my first post was being sarcastic.

This "letter" reminds me of the underhanded, saccharine propaganda that pro-lifers write from the perspective of an unborn fetus. It doesn't bring me to tears, it makes me queasy.

If the writers are inclined to make the Templars sympathetic, they're going to do a hell of a lot better than this.

Why would it have to be propaganda to be unsettling? It's probably worse if it's genuine (spelling errors notwithstanding, which do remove a bit of gravitas).

[In Exile]

I completely forgot Alrik was also responsible for Karl.

[Ravensword]

Here we go.

[The Hierophant]

yup

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, I thought it would be obvious, but apparently it's not so, to clarify; my first post was being sarcastic.

This "letter" reminds me of the underhanded, saccharine propaganda that pro-lifers write from the perspective of an unborn fetus. It doesn't bring me to tears, it makes me queasy.

If the writers are inclined to make the Templars sympathetic, they're going to do a hell of a lot better than this.

Why would it have to be propaganda to be unsettling? It's probably worse if it's genuine (spelling errors notwithstanding, which do remove a bit of gravitas).

Well, if it was a genuine letter, it would mean there actually was a templar out there somewhere that had a modicum of sympathy for mages. Not enough to stop treating them like cattle, or prevent him from vilifying them unnecessarily, but still, it would be an improvement, however slight. 

Since previous interactions with Lotion Soronnar have indicated that he does not possess such sympathies, the "letter" instead reads as a cheap and cloying attempt to tug at readers' heartstrings in order to sway them to his side of the meta-debate (ie, that templars need to be shown in a more sympathetic light, and mages need further vilification).

[TK514]

Alas.

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, I thought it would be obvious, but apparently it's not so, to clarify; my first post was being sarcastic.

This "letter" reminds me of the underhanded, saccharine propaganda that pro-lifers write from the perspective of an unborn fetus. It doesn't bring me to tears, it makes me queasy.

If the writers are inclined to make the Templars sympathetic, they're going to do a hell of a lot better than this.

Why would it have to be propaganda to be unsettling? It's probably worse if it's genuine (spelling errors notwithstanding, which do remove a bit of gravitas).

Well, if it was a genuine letter, it would mean there actually was a templar out there somewhere that had a modicum of sympathy for mages. Not enough to stop treating them like cattle, or prevent him from vilifying them unnecessarily, but still, it would be an improvement, however slight. 

Since previous interactions with Lotion Soronnar have indicated that he does not possess such sympathies, the "letter" instead reads as a cheap and cloying attempt to tug at readers' heartstrings in order to sway them to his side of the meta-debate (ie, that templars need to be shown in a more sympathetic light, and mages need further vilification).

Fair enough, but if we treat the letter as a fictional document instead of just another window into Lotion Soronnar's numerous personality defects, it seems like it might be more useful for objective analysis. And I don't think that the perspective in said letter is all that uncommon among the templars, to be completely fair. Of course, your analysis of the hidden agenda is probably correct.

[Chanda]

It just goes to show that it's a morally grey area. There are good, compassionate templars out there, just as there are evil, dirty templars out there. And there are good mages that don't seek to harm others and just live their lives, and there are bad mages that yearn for power and will do anything it takes to get it, including summoning demons and blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

Chanda wrote...

It just goes to show that it's a morally grey area. There are good, compassionate templars out there, just as there are evil, dirty templars out there. And there are good mages that don't seek to harm others and just live their lives, and there are bad mages that yearn for power and will do anything it takes to get it, including summoning demons and blood magic.

All the good, compassionate templars have shown a rather distinct pattern thus far: they leave the templars.

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

Chanda wrote...

It just goes to show that it's a morally grey area. There are good, compassionate templars out there, just as there are evil, dirty templars out there. And there are good mages that don't seek to harm others and just live their lives, and there are bad mages that yearn for power and will do anything it takes to get it, including summoning demons and blood magic.

All the good, compassionate templars have shown a rather distinct pattern thus far: they leave the templars.

Well, Thrask and Keran don't necessarily abandon the Templars. Their goal is specifically to oust Meredith, so that the Circle can resume its normal (supposedly less abusive) routine. They're not aiming to disrupt the Circles and free all mages, or even to improve them in a systemic, big-picture way.

It's better than nothing, but still not great.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 juin 2013 - 04:05 .

[Chanda]

Xilizhra wrote...

Chanda wrote...

It just goes to show that it's a morally grey area. There are good, compassionate templars out there, just as there are evil, dirty templars out there. And there are good mages that don't seek to harm others and just live their lives, and there are bad mages that yearn for power and will do anything it takes to get it, including summoning demons and blood magic.

All the good, compassionate templars have shown a rather distinct pattern thus far: they leave the templars.

We can't really say anything with certainty until we get to the end of DA: Inquisition. And maybe not even then.

[Plaintiff]

Chanda wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Chanda wrote...

It just goes to show that it's a morally grey area. There are good, compassionate templars out there, just as there are evil, dirty templars out there. And there are good mages that don't seek to harm others and just live their lives, and there are bad mages that yearn for power and will do anything it takes to get it, including summoning demons and blood magic.

All the good, compassionate templars have shown a rather distinct pattern thus far: they leave the templars.

We can't really say anything with certainty until we get to the end of DA: Inquisition. And maybe not even then.

Well we can't say for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow, but given its past behaviour, it seems the most likely outcome.

[dragonflight288]

There's no such thing as a templar who's both not corrupt and not bad. The good ones, like Thrask and Keran, are corrupt. Everyone else is bad.

I think you misunderstood my post. I meant that every bad templar was corrupt, bad, abusive in their power, etc, while the good ones were few and far between. On the flip side, the mages were either completely nuts or driven to desperation and used as examples of why a templar's duties are necessary.

I simply want to see mages and templars who aren't corrupt, don't abuse their power, and fight each other because they're unwilling to abandon their principles. If I could have that, that would be awesome.

I'm willing to wait and see Inquisition before making judgements. I still support mages and their right to freedom, but I would like to see a templar who is both sympathetic and not corrupt. Taking the letter Lotion had written on its own merits, I would love to see a templar like that.

However Plaintiff, I do agree that after debating Lotion in the past before, the letter itself doesn't mean much when it comes from someone who has openly admitted to not caring about debating honestly because his opinion is that if mage supporters who legitimately criticize templars disagree with them, they therefore must lack common sense and are therefore idiots. I even asked Lotion politely a few times to use in-game evidence to support his arguments about why mages absolutely NEED to be in the Circles, and he refused to even do that, all the while dismissing mage supporters evidence by saying "that doesn't count."

But on its own merits, for plot and characterization reasons, I would absolutely love to see it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She was saying that any templars who aren't bad are corrupt, because being a templar is an inherently evil job.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 juin 2013 - 04:32 .

[Ravensword]

Xilizhra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, I thought it would be obvious, but apparently it's not so, to clarify; my first post was being sarcastic.

This "letter" reminds me of the underhanded, saccharine propaganda that pro-lifers write from the perspective of an unborn fetus. It doesn't bring me to tears, it makes me queasy.

If the writers are inclined to make the Templars sympathetic, they're going to do a hell of a lot better than this.

Why would it have to be propaganda to be unsettling? It's probably worse if it's genuine (spelling errors notwithstanding, which do remove a bit of gravitas).

Well, if it was a genuine letter, it would mean there actually was a templar out there somewhere that had a modicum of sympathy for mages. Not enough to stop treating them like cattle, or prevent him from vilifying them unnecessarily, but still, it would be an improvement, however slight. 

Since previous interactions with Lotion Soronnar have indicated that he does not possess such sympathies, the "letter" instead reads as a cheap and cloying attempt to tug at readers' heartstrings in order to sway them to his side of the meta-debate (ie, that templars need to be shown in a more sympathetic light, and mages need further vilification).

Fair enough, but if we treat the letter as a fictional document instead of just another window into Lotion Soronnar's numerous personality defects, it seems like it might be more useful for objective analysis. And I don't think that the perspective in said letter is all that uncommon among the templars, to be completely fair. Of course, your analysis of the hidden agenda is probably correct.

I think you guys are reading into this too much. I'm sure if someone else wrote the letter, your reception to this letter would be better.

In any case, it is something that isn't addressed. The series is lacking any sort of moral grey area. It's the writers' own loss at not incorporating any sort of moral grayness to the series. Every apostate mage you meet in DA2 tries to kill you at some point, ends up murdering someone and using their blood for their rituals, and becoming an abomination.

You have Orsino who is painted as a rational while Meredith is painted as irrational. However, mage supporters will be shocked when Orsino was covering for a serial killer blood mage, and then transforms himself into a Harvester. Templar supporters would likely be annoyed to find out when Meredith turns on the player despite the player's loyalty to the Templars.

In any case, both sides are portrayed in a rather unsympathetic manner (although, it seems that the writers may favor the mage side). There needs to be more sympathetic characters on both sides.

[RobRam10]

OP that letter was brilliantly written I love it.

Ahem, so unto the good templar thing! The only definition of a "good templar" is Knight-Commander Greagoir, the man is dutiful and is something all other templars should strive for, he may be an opressor but he only does it for sake of the common people and protects them and the mages.

"It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them." - Greagoir.

He is also not unreasonable he takes Irving's word over Cullen's when we spare the mages.

Like I said he is the only "good" templar.

Templars like Ser Thrask and Keran are men who forsake their duty, they have good itentions but in the process they harm the people who they swore to protect.

Templars like Meredith... although she performed her duty, she was simply overzealous and because of that she distrusted all mages especially since she was traumatized by her exprience with her sister and her familiy's death.

And Templars like Ser Alrik are just men who fear magic and are disgusted by it and abuse their authority against the mages, to me this templars are the worst and unfit for the duty.

Modifié par RobRam10, 07 juin 2013 - 05:09 .

[Dave of Canada]

What we need to see in DA:I is that both sides consist of human beings, they've lived their lives and had their own childhoods and experiences which ultimately led them to the people which they are at that point.

Templar need to be seperated into two groups, those who've remained with the Divine and those who've left off to hunt with Lambert. Although the Lambert-faction is the "primary" faction, we can't dismiss the fact that the Divine holds much influence on the people.

Templar perspectives I'd like to see explored more with multiple characters:[*]Family Man: Someone who has personal ties as a reason to join the Templar Order, they wish to supervise and watch over their family. Regardless of their family being mage or mundane, they're in the Templar Order because they believe what they're trying to protect their family. 
Example: Thrask.

[*]Worker: Someone who decided to join the Templar Order for the benefits, they might see their duty to the Chantry as being nice but they were far more interested in the education, training and salary provided by the Chantry. Their beliefs could range from thinking they're doing the right thing, loathing mages or what say you.
Example: Keran.

[*]Dutiful: Serving the Templar Order out of belief that they're doing the right thing, the dutiful serve the Templar to protect the mundanes and the mages believing that's their duty. They may agree with the Templar Order's principles and practices but may grow to question them when seeing them abused by others.
Example: Evangeline, Cullen.

[*]Zealot: Someone who takes the Chantry's teachings on mages too seriously, perhaps they've experienced the wrong side of magic or they were just naturally very supportive of the Chantry's teachings throughout their lives. Their zeal isn't necessairly wrong but can sometimes come off strong.
Example: Meredith.

[*]Addict: Originally someone who joined with intentions that were replaced as soon as lyrium engulfed their life, they might care very little about the conflict which they're involved in and serves whomever can satisfy their addiction.
Example: Samson.[/list]
Sub-conflicts:

• We need to see everyone of these personalities deal with their lack of lyrium and how it's influencing them, we can't just have "bad" Templar show symptoms. Perhaps the Family-oriented Templar starts hallucinating every dead mage as his son and cannot fight anymore, the addict kills his peer to take his lyrium, etc.
• We need to see some of the more devout question their position, breaking away from the Chantry was something which felt like Lambert was twisting the Knight-Commander's arms. A potential to explore and fracture the Templar forces with their divided loyalties could be great material.
• People questioning whether or not they're doing the right thing, how far they're willing to go to stop the mages (EX: killing a village suspected harboring apostates,) discussing what they hope to accomplish by the end of the war and whether or not they'll just exterminate or imprison the mages. Helps establish the thoughts of the people.

Meanwhile, we can't dismiss that mages themselves aren't completely insane and they've got people amongst their ranks as well, we need to see diverse origins amongst the mages and how those influence them.  Although mages are different in the sense that despite their roots, they might've changed completely after being introduced to the Circle, such as Huon's established roots as a family man turning into a blood mage lunatic.

Being unable to make neat subsections for mages since they're so diverse (Chantry believers, Tevinter wannabes, etc) I'll just list the "big three" that I'd like to see:
[*]Reluctant: Mages aren't disciplined, they're simply superpowered people who've been locked away their entire lives and have little experience in the outside world. They've been dragged into a conflict which they might not want to take part in, not knowing whether they'll fight when the time comes or throw themselves at the mercy of the Templar.
Example: Pre-Final Battle Mages (Pro-Mage path, DA2), Surrendering Mages (Pro-Templar path, DA2)

[*]Vengeful: Perhaps they've always been sick and tired of the Circle and the Templar, perhaps these feelings only grew apparant after they were forced out of the Circle by the Templar overbearing on them after Kirkwall. Regardless, they're willing to make sure they remain independent and free.
Example: Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Rhys.

[*]Apostate: They don't care about mages or templar, maybe they just escaped because they'd die otherwise or they wanted to see their families again. Perhaps they're looking for a way out and can't find one, willing to turn on their peers if they'd somehow benefit and gain their freedom from it or waiting for the battle to start so they can slip away.
Example: Awakening Anders, Ella.[/list]
Sub-conflicts:

• We need to see mages dealing with the blood magic issue, something which they've been warned about for all their years in the Circle and now they've got no big brother watching them to stop it. We need to see how far they'll push the boundaries, how anti-BM mages react to this and whether they'll develop into infighting.
• We'll also need to see how low mages are willing to go for the sake of freedom, they're fighting an army of disciplined anti-magic soldiers which have training in military warfare. Will mages be pushed to the brink and turn insane like Orsino? Will they start resorting to atrocities (EX: kidnapping villagers to sacrifice for blood magic) which would prove the Templar right?
• I'd love to see Fiona taking precautions and trying to discipline mages, perhaps turning to irony when she has too many deserters and having every mage give her blood to create phylacteries to stop them from running, etc.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[RobRam10]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dutiful: Serving the Templar Order out of belief that they're doing the right thing, the dutiful serve the Templar to protect the mundanes and the mages believing that's their duty. They may agree with the Templar Order's principles and practices but may grow to question them when seeing them abused by others.
Example: Evangeline, Cullen, Greagoir*

[erilben]

RobRam10 wrote...

Ahem, so unto the good templar thing! The only definition of a "good templar" is Knight-Commander Greagoir, the man is dutiful and is something all other templars should strive for, he may be an opressor but he only does it for sake of the common people and protects them and the mages.

"It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them." - Greagoir.

He is also not unreasonable he takes Irving's word over Cullen's when we spare the mages.

Like I said he is the only "good" templar.

Greagoir beats pregnant women. There's no good templars.