1081 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But we do.

Not only "what's been done" has been at places really bad (like insane mages everywhere), but the templar side has had a far less balanced look.

Hardly. The templar look is perfectly balanced for their role.

As do the mages in DA2. 

I don't see Bioware saying that their look at templars was too extreme.

Rubbish, if mages weren't insane psychopaths needing extermination they wouldn't have been portrayed as such in DA2. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 juin 2013 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Xil, since you're not trying to even be constructive, just go away. You're trolling and don't bother denying it, least others are being constructive about the topic.

I never troll.

Rubbish, if mages weren't insane psychopaths needing extermination they wouldn't have been portrayed as such in DA2.

Take it up with Bioware for that statement, then.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rubbish, if mages weren't insane psychopaths needing extermination they wouldn't have been portrayed as such in DA2.

Take it up with Bioware for that statement, then.

The Bioware statement was made so they wouldn't hurt mage supporters feelings, It's been based from internal leaks that the move in DA2 was actually a shift in direction to re examine the terrorist threat of mages and the accurate portayal will continue in DA3. Unfortunately they are bound by a NDA so can't confirm this until release.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't see Bioware saying that their look at templars was too extreme.

Technically, it was said that the templars in Kirkwall rapresent the most extreme side of the Order in Thedas, so it should've been portrayed in a similar way. That doesn't mean that all the templars should or are considered as the templars in Kirwall. Templars in DAO weren't  as extreme as the templars in DA2. Both sides were well-rapresented in the first game, and fell in a morally grey area. There's no reason to believe that the Order in other places was more like the one in Ferelden than the one in Kirkwall.
the situation might be different now, if the templar's goal in DAI will be the total annihilation of mages, but we should wait and see what will happen.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[Xilizhra]

The Bioware statement was made so they wouldn't hurt mage supporters feelings, It's been based from internal leaks that the move in DA2 was actually a shift in direction to re examine the terrorist threat of mages and the accurate portayal will continue in DA3. Unfortunately they are bound by a NDA so can't confirm this until release.

Wow, that's quite an accusation. I'm sure that anyone making such would have proof?

Technically, it was said that the templars in Kirkwall rapresent the most extreme side of the Order in Thedas, so it should've been portrayed in a similar way. That doesn't mean that all the templars should or are considered as the templars in Kirwall. Templars in DAO weren't as extreme as the templars in DA2. Both sides were well-rapresented in the first game, and fell in a morally grey area. There's no reason to believe that the Order in other places was more like the one in Ferelden than the one in Kirkwall.

Given the portrayal in Asunder, nothing about the templars seems inconsistent to me. Kirkwall's commander was outright crazy instead of just a tyrant, but that's the only major difference.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Bioware statement was made so they wouldn't hurt mage supporters feelings, It's been based from internal leaks that the move in DA2 was actually a shift in direction to re examine the terrorist threat of mages and the accurate portayal will continue in DA3. Unfortunately they are bound by a NDA so can't confirm this until release.

Wow, that's quite an accusation. I'm sure that anyone making such would have proof?

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Technically, it was said that the templars in Kirkwall rapresent the most extreme side of the Order in Thedas, so it should've been portrayed in a similar way. That doesn't mean that all the templars should or are considered as the templars in Kirwall. Templars in DAO weren't as extreme as the templars in DA2. Both sides were well-rapresented in the first game, and fell in a morally grey area. There's no reason to believe that the Order in other places was more like the one in Ferelden than the one in Kirkwall.

Given the portrayal in Asunder, nothing about the templars seems inconsistent to me. Kirkwall's commander was outright crazy instead of just a tyrant, but that's the only major difference.

I didn't mean that the templar's portrayal in DA2 was incosistent. I meant that both the DAO's portrayal and the DA2's portrayal rapresent the templars. There are both moderate and extremists templars, and depending on the place one side is stronger than the others. The same could happen in DAI, inside the templars, where two different factions could be present. The same goes for the mage side.
Of course, if could happen that the templars at war with the mages are all extremists, and that moderate templars decided to remain/return to the Chantry (or side with the mages, even). We'll have to wait and see how Bioware handled this. 

[Xilizhra]

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

So it's an "internal leak" that somehow only you know about personally and has no links to articles discussing it or anything of the kind.

I didn't mean that the templar's portrayal in DA2 was incosistent. I meant that both the DAO's portrayal and the DA2's portrayal rapresent the templars. There are both moderate and extremists templars, and depending on the place one side is stronger than the others. The same could happen in DAI, inside the templars, where two different factions could be present. The same goes for the mage side.
Of course, if could happen that the templars at war with the mages are all extremists, and that moderate templars decided to remain/return to the Chantry (or side with the mages, even). We'll have to wait and see how Bioware handled this.

Indeed, waiting will be required.

[The Elder King]

billy the squid said...

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

With this do you mean that all(or the majority) the mages in DAI will be rapresented like this, or that there'll be an equa rapresentation? Maybe two sides inside the mage faction?

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We have all the templar perspective we need.
Right here.

But, I have no real opposition to it. It really doesn't matter what self-serving drivel the honorless write to their loved ones; they'll fall just the same.

I would actually love to see that in Inquisition. We have plenty of
corrupt and bad templars in DA2, and almost every bad mage in DA2 was
either insane or driven to desperation by the corrupt templars.

There's no such thing as a templar who's both not corrupt and not bad. The good ones, like Thrask and Keran, are corrupt. Everyone else is bad.

You sound kind of crazy

I prefer "Malcolm X-y."

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

So it's an "internal leak" that somehow only you know about personally and has no links to articles discussing it or anything of the kind.

.

It has no links because of the NDA and a single phrase, however telling of the change in direction, isn't going to capture an article attention, there's been very few on DA3, if you haven't noticed. I'm also not willing to put people's jobs on the line by exposing what I've found out. Sorry, you'll just have to wait and see on release, just how bad mages can be.

[GodWood]

Valerie Solanas-y would be closer, but even that is too kind.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

So it's an "internal leak" that somehow only you know about personally and has no links to articles discussing it or anything of the kind.

.

It has no links because of the NDA and a single phrase, however telling of the change in direction, isn't going to capture an article attention, there's been very few on DA3, if you haven't noticed. I'm also not willing to put people's jobs on the line by exposing what I've found out. Sorry, you'll just have to wait and see on release, just how bad mages can be.

In this case, I shall put a few scientific principles into action: one, that a hypothesis that isn't falsifiable can't be considered, and two, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, especially if there's already existing counterevidence. I shall remain unworried.

Valerie Solanas-y would be closer, but even that is too kind.

Tragic, truly, especially with the paranoid schizophrenia.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 juin 2013 - 04:54 .

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists.

So it's an "internal leak" that somehow only you know about personally and has no links to articles discussing it or anything of the kind.

.

It has no links because of the NDA and a single phrase, however telling of the change in direction, isn't going to capture an article attention, there's been very few on DA3, if you haven't noticed. I'm also not willing to put people's jobs on the line by exposing what I've found out. Sorry, you'll just have to wait and see on release, just how bad mages can be.

In this case, I shall put a few scientific principles into action: one, that a hypothesis that isn't falsifiable can't be considered, and two, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, especially if there's already existing counterevidence. I shall remain unworried.

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 juin 2013 - 05:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Bioware saying that the mage presentation would be more moderate as a whole later on.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Bioware saying that the mage presentation would be more moderate as a whole later on.

As in not running about in Kirkwall casting magic infront of Templars, not turning into Havesters, no Frankenstein mommies. That's true, it is more moderate. Using blood magic, killing civillians, taking over towns and executing people for their own purposes. Its unfortunately a casualty of the conflict which mages are involved in and will use those methods.

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

Rubbish, if mages weren't insane psychopaths needing extermination they wouldn't have been portrayed as such in DA2. 

It would help if the depiction of mage antagonists made sense in terms of storytelling. Having Decimus think that my apostate Hawke and his moiety crew were templars didn't make much sense, especially when Merrill accompanied my protagonist (given the bitter history between the People and the Order of Templars). Having Grace attacked my pro-mage Champion when he was a known apostate who condemned Meredith's rule over Kirkwall and even killed templars to help Grace and the other Starkhaven mages escape didn't make sense, and simply railroaded me down the same road as the people who played their Hawke as pro-templar.

Having insane and stupid mages pretty much made the entire mage and templar dichotomy pointless, because we never get a serious look into either side. It would've been better handled like Skyrim dealt with the Legion and the Stormcloaks, where we get some insight into the conflict between the two factions, and we have good and bad aspects about the respective groups. Tullius and Ulfric don't turn into ridiculously asinine monsters if you oppose them, either, and both of them remain sane and rational to the end.

Having Orsino turn into a recylced Harvester and Meredith become a raving lunatic wielding the Soul Calibur macguffin was pretty pointless.

Hopefully, Inquisition will be like New Vegas, where we can help or hinder different factions, and we get insight into them and make significant choices without being railroaded into helping a specific one. I'd certainly like to avoid being forced into helping the Chantry or the templars again, and I'm sure pro-templar players don't want the story to force certain companions that make little sense for their respective pro-templar protagonist again (like the apostates Anders and Merrill).

[Iakus]

There are several different factions within the mages with their own outlooks, why not with the templars?  

I mean Cullen, Karas, Evangeline, and Meredith are all templars with thei rown views on mages and how they should be treated.

Just as Uldred, Wynne, Adrien, Orsino, and Rhys are all Circle mages with very different outlooks as well.

I believe it's a mistake to believe the templars are as homogenous an organization as they have often been portrayed.  They are certainly not all Ser Alrik.  Heck even Meredith thought he was too extreme.  What's important, though, is that they have, at their heart, a legitimate fear of the damage mages can cause if their power is misused or control is lost.  The question then becomes, what can be done about it?

[LobselVith8]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wow, that's quite an accusation. I'm sure that anyone making such would have proof?

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists. 

Does Deep Throat tell you other things? Maybe the Mysterious Stranger can tell you if pro-templar players will be forced to kill templars, and if pro-mage players will be forced to kill mages, because I'm sure some pro-templar players would rather help the templars in the narrative, while some pro-mage players (like myself) would prefer to help the mages, rather than being forced to kill them.

Just how I feel about the situation, of course.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Bioware saying that the mage presentation would be more moderate as a whole later on.

As in not running about in Kirkwall casting magic infront of Templars, not turning into Havesters, no Frankenstein mommies. That's true, it is more moderate. Using blood magic, killing civillians, taking over towns and executing people for their own purposes. Its unfortunately a casualty of the conflict which mages are involved in and will use those methods.

Again, I must refer to the part about unfalsifiable hypotheses being worthless. Also, they were referring to the whole game, not just those two instances.

[Sainna]

I am pretty sure that in DA3 we will have quite a few endings that reflect just that.

In one most mages will be killed and new ones will be almost imprisoned or be put in circles with the harshest of rules.

In a other we will have most of the Templars be exterminated and mages grabbing a lot of power. Some of course will abuse it, some will fall victims to demons as in the end circles did serve to also teach the younger mages.

We will probably have some semi good ending as well where mage circles are restored, with templars/someone to watch/help out the mages but not quite imprison them. Young children might just be taken into circles as if they where taken into a school and still allowed to visit their family's and once their 'edjucation' is complete, be allowed back to their family and blah blah.

The usual Bioware endings really, nothing too great, nothing too bad.

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wow, that's quite an accusation. I'm sure that anyone making such would have proof?

Of course, unfortunately if I reveal it it implicates the parties in having breached the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I don't want to put their careers in jepordy for fan saticfaction hence you'll just have to wait until release to see accurate portrayal of mages as corrupt terrorists. 

Does Deep Throat tell you other things? Maybe the Mysterious Stranger can tell you if pro-templar players will be forced to kill templars, and if pro-mage players will be forced to kill mages, because I'm sure some pro-templar players would rather help the templars in the narrative, while some pro-mage players (like myself) would prefer to help the mages, rather than being forced to kill them.

Just how I feel about the situation, of course.

Deep throat tells me all the mages die. 


On a different note, your previous post regarding New Vegas like decision making has been briefly confirmed. Your previous post also highlights very well the way they seem to be going with this, less raving loons, more subtle with the pros and cons of Mages and Templars. That will obviously include use of blood magic, mind control, use of slaves to fuel experiments, Templars executing maleficars and apostates who refuse to surrender, forced tranquility. etc.

Both sides are going to do some rather nasty things in the conflict. It's a better portrayal that doesn't detract from how bad each side can be by having them deteriorate into cackling bad people.

Also, it's been stated that they will allow for greater divergence and an open ended setting.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 juin 2013 - 05:34 .

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Bioware saying that the mage presentation would be more moderate as a whole later on.

As in not running about in Kirkwall casting magic infront of Templars, not turning into Havesters, no Frankenstein mommies. That's true, it is more moderate. Using blood magic, killing civillians, taking over towns and executing people for their own purposes. Its unfortunately a casualty of the conflict which mages are involved in and will use those methods.

Again, I must refer to the part about unfalsifiable hypotheses being worthless. Also, they were referring to the whole game, not just those two instances.

I can list all of them if you want, the Templars and Mages suffered from hammy evil villan syndrome. Sorry if that doesn't sit with your view of how mages will act in a conflict, but there we are. Mages do kill inoccents and mages do bad things as well, sorry that's what's on the cards.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't say I didn't warn you if you get upset where upon the true face of mages are revealed on DA3. The counter evidence is that they went overboard. ie: writing was bad, or are you really saying Orsino turning into the Harvester was good writing? How they'll act, what steps they'll take and how many civilians die in the process, that's clearly still an issue and something they've addressed.

Bioware saying that the mage presentation would be more moderate as a whole later on.

As in not running about in Kirkwall casting magic infront of Templars, not turning into Havesters, no Frankenstein mommies. That's true, it is more moderate. Using blood magic, killing civillians, taking over towns and executing people for their own purposes. Its unfortunately a casualty of the conflict which mages are involved in and will use those methods.

Again, I must refer to the part about unfalsifiable hypotheses being worthless. Also, they were referring to the whole game, not just those two instances.

Do you seriously believe mages wouldn't stoop to those methods?