1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Nole]

Il Divo wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil, as seen with Merrill. However it can be used for bad things, such as even swords can be.

One edge of the sword can be used to hurt, maim and threaten. While the other edge can be used to fight, defend and protect. Just as any other tool can be.

A sword can't blow up entire towns in a matter of seconds.

It can still kill a hundred people.

This misses a few critical details.  Yes, a sword can kill a hundred people. But is it likely that a sword will kill a hundred people? Probably not. Not in one shot, anyway. One fireball can take care of how many in one shot?

What you're suggesting is like saying that because an atomic bomb and a knife can both theoretically achieve the same kill count, that we should not look at the former as a more efficient tool for the process. All tools are not created equal.

And not to mention the fact that a normal person can actually defend himself against a sword.

So, let's say a random guy is trying to kill me and my family with a sword (normal people with no magic), what can I do? I fight him with my own sword.
But what can I do if a mage is trying to kill me and my family? 

[KiwiQuiche]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil, as seen with Merrill. However it can be used for bad things, such as even swords can be.

One edge of the sword can be used to hurt, maim and threaten. While the other edge can be used to fight, defend and protect. Just as any other tool can be.

A sword can't blow up entire towns in a matter of seconds.

It can still kill a hundred people.

This misses a few critical details.  Yes, a sword can kill a hundred people. But is it likely that a sword will kill a hundred people? Probably not. Not in one shot, anyway. One fireball can take care of how many in one shot?

What you're suggesting is like saying that because an atomic bomb and a knife can both theoretically achieve the same kill count, that we should not look at the former as a more efficient tool for the process. All tools are not created equal.

And not to mention the fact that a normal person can actually defend himself against a sword.

So, let's say a random guy is trying to kill me and my family with a sword (normal people with no magic), what can I do? I fight him with my own sword.
But what can I do if a mage is trying to kill me and my family? 

Then you shoot them or stab them. Mages aren't invulnrable.

[Nole]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil, as seen with Merrill. However it can be used for bad things, such as even swords can be.

One edge of the sword can be used to hurt, maim and threaten. While the other edge can be used to fight, defend and protect. Just as any other tool can be.

A sword can't blow up entire towns in a matter of seconds.

It can still kill a hundred people.

This misses a few critical details.  Yes, a sword can kill a hundred people. But is it likely that a sword will kill a hundred people? Probably not. Not in one shot, anyway. One fireball can take care of how many in one shot?

What you're suggesting is like saying that because an atomic bomb and a knife can both theoretically achieve the same kill count, that we should not look at the former as a more efficient tool for the process. All tools are not created equal.

And not to mention the fact that a normal person can actually defend himself against a sword.

So, let's say a random guy is trying to kill me and my family with a sword (normal people with no magic), what can I do? I fight him with my own sword.
But what can I do if a mage is trying to kill me and my family? 

Then you shoot them or stab them. Mages aren't invulnrable.

I can't do that when he is controlling my own body with blood magic :S

[dragonflight288]

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one doubts that mages can do heinous things. Tevinter alone proves that there are mages who are willing to do horrific things to other people (including other mages), but the issue becomes whether the Chantry controlled Circles should be the solution, or are part of another problem entirely when it comes to the issue of magic in Thedas. That's the crux of the matter with people who side with the mages - we see the Circles under Chantry and templar control as part of the problem.

I think at this point it's pretty clear the Circles failed twice.  Both in Tevinter and the rest of Thedas.

However, that doesn't mean a new solution needn't be sought.  I hold that the fears of the templars are valid, even if their methods are not.

You mean methods like keeping mages from marrying, separating them from their families (and the Circle in Rivain was Annulled because the Seers kept in contact with their families....no other reason has been given) and having all their children taken as chantry property?

Sorry, I see their methods as heionous, but the role of templar as necessary. And the role of templar is non-mages having the ability to negate magic, and thus serve as an effective police force against criminal elements of the mages. I don't think a fictional Stanford Prison Experiment as the status quo is wise no matter the demographic, be they mage or otherwise.

I don't trust mages to run things, but I game history and lore makes it very clear the templars and the chantry can't be trusted either. They're part of the problem in the current system. A new system is needed. One where the Templars and the Chantry don't have ALL the power.

[Il Divo]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Swords/nukes/knives aren't people. People are not senseless, unfeeling tools. Unless they are Tranquil.

 People can be senseless, unfeeling tools. And they don't need to be tranquil in order to do it. Weapons are regulated. But mages are people who have access to potentially devastating arsenals. Comparing someone with a sword to someone who can cast Firestorm (for example) is a terrible point.

As I said, someone with a sword goes crazy, you have a few deaths on your hand. You have someone capable of casting high level spells go crazy, you have a mountain of bodies. If I have someone on hand who can achieve that level of destruction at his whim, I'm not likely to give him absolute autonomy because of his feelings.

That and it wasn't the point of my comparision.

I'm aware. Your point was referring to how there are two sides of the coin to every tool, good and bad. But that still misses something critical: any tool can be used for good and evil. What needs to be recognized however is that, if said tool is used for evil, what sort of chaos can it lead to? That's what decides how much regulation a tool requires.

Our modern day is a perfect example. You can go out and buy a knife to kill someone anywhere you want. Guns are more regulated, and nukes insanely so. All three can lead to either good or evil (Yeah, I realize this is simplistic), but not all are given the same level of regulation.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 juin 2013 - 10:54 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Il Divo wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Swords/nukes/knives aren't people. People are not senseless, unfeeling tools. Unless they are Tranquil.

 People can be senseless, unfeeling tools. And they don't need to be tranquil in order to do it. Weapons are regulated. But mages are people who have access to potentially devastating arsenals. Comparing someone with a sword to someone who can cast Firestorm (for example) is a terrible point.

As I said, someone with a sword goes crazy, you have a few deaths on your hand. You have someone capable of casting high level spells go crazy, you have a mountain of bodies. If I have someone on hand who can achieve that level of destruction at his whim, I'm not likely to give him absolute autonomy because of his feelings.

That and it wasn't the point of my comparision.

I'm aware. Your point was referring to how there are two sides of the coin to every tool, good and bad. But that still misses something critical: any tool can be used for good and evil. What needs to be recognized however is that, if said tool is used for evil, what sort of chaos can it lead to? That's what decides how much regulation a tool requires.

Our modern day is a perfect example. You can go out and buy a knife to kill someone anywhere you want. Guns are more regulated, and nukes insanely so. All three can lead to either good or evil (Yeah, I realize this is simplistic), but not all are given the same level of regulation.

Those such people are very rare. And simply because some can do that, doesn't mean you have the right to lock them on what they can do, not what they did do.

Yes that was my point- yet you cannot regulate people. Doing so has lead to the current Mage/Templar War; people, surprisingly, do not like being taken from their families and imprisioned all their life. It tends to breed resentment.

[Iakus]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Those such people are very rare. And simply because some can do that, doesn't mean you have the right to lock them on what they can do, not what they did do.

Yes that was my point- yet you cannot regulate people. Doing so has lead to the current Mage/Templar War; people, surprisingly, do not like being taken from their families and imprisioned all their life. It tends to breed resentment.

And that's precisely what makes the situation so complicated.  You have people who have incredibly dangerous abilities, yet with all the personal weaknesses of your everyday human or elf.  How does one defend themselves against misuse of these abilities?  Without imprisoning them?  

How do you deal with the Magnetos of the world while respecting the Xaviers and not dealing with astronomical bodycounts on a semiregular basis?

And that doesn't even include the possibility of  mages getting possessed by demons and going all Dark Phoenix against their will.

Edit:  and keep in mind the nhumber of humans born with magic has been growing.  this is a problem that's not going to go away.  

Modifié par iakus, 09 juin 2013 - 11:11 .

[KiwiQuiche]

iakus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Those such people are very rare. And simply because some can do that, doesn't mean you have the right to lock them on what they can do, not what they did do.

Yes that was my point- yet you cannot regulate people. Doing so has lead to the current Mage/Templar War; people, surprisingly, do not like being taken from their families and imprisioned all their life. It tends to breed resentment.

And that's precisely what makes the situation so complicated.  You have people who have incredibly dangerous abilities, yet with all the personal weaknesses of your everyday human or elf.  How does one defend themselves against misuse of these abilities?  Without imprisoning them?  

How do you deal with the Magnetos of the world while respecting the Xaviers and not dealing with astronomical bodycounts on a semiregular basis?

And that doesn't even include the possibility of  mages getting possessed by demons and going all Dark Phoenix against their will.

Edit:  and keep in mind the nhumber of humans born with magic has been growing.  this is a problem that's not going to go away.  

Okay, first off- points to you for the X-men argument.

Second; I think the main problem is exactly one Morrigan says to Wynne;
"

• Wynne: You would prefer a world where young mages were slain by the ignorant for their talent? Taught to fear their abilities?
• Morrigan: That is what the Circle teaches. You fear your abilities, instead of reveling in them.

That, I feel, is the main problem.

In places such as Rivain, the 'Seers' and mages are treated as high-class, they are given respect, not treated like wild animals who'll kill everyone at a moments notice. Heck, the Seers even let themselves be possessed, yet they don't go on horrific rampages all the time. The Circle there was functioning, with the mages being trained and allowed to visit their families; and there was no horrific incidents. Everyone was fine until the Seekers showed up and narked to the Divine, which led to the Rivain Circle being annuled.

In pretty much the rest of Thedas, (barring Dalish, Chasid etc) mages are told constantly they are inches from being crazed monsters and they have to be locked up and watched constantly because they are too weak and dangerous. However in places where they aren't treated as such, there is a crapload less bloodshed and crazed abominations.

[Dave of Canada]

I'll continue with this tangent,, I guess.

We're all human, we're all driven by the same instincts and impulses and suffer under great times of stress. Sometimes, you're sitting there and wish you could make all your problems go away but you can't, you're forced to deal with it or else crumble.

At most, you crumble and grab your sword,  (in Thedas) claiming the lives of not even a dozen people before finally being slain and ending your "reign". The man who snapped was simply someone who couldn't deal with life and everyone else has the potential to fight him on even odds.

Introduce a mage to the man's life, what if he could wish away all his problems? You're starving? Take the loaf of bread, the merchant can't stop you and you can tamper with his memories without him noticing. You can't afford your taxes? "I'll pay it next time" and the tax payer obliviously walks off.

Who wouldn't be tempted by this kind of power? The girl you like who rejected you? Manipulated memories! The loud drunkard who screams out and wakes you in the morning? Suicide! What if you're a minority and a dreamer and learn that you can mold reality as you see fit? No-one can stop you, you're above everyone else. The fact is, they're your playthings.

When the mundanes realize something is amiss and send out Templar after you, what do you do? Summon demons to do your bidding and fight for you? Raise the dead? Blow them up with a fireball? Control and make themselves kill each other? It's life or death, you're not going to bow down and submit.

When mages can kill hundreds of people individually, summon private armies and become possessed augmenting their capabilities even further.... well, you've got a recipe for disaster. The fact that two possessed child mages with absolutely no magical training destroyed villages and killed people numbering in the hundreds, pedestrians and trained people alike demonstrate that they can't be allowed to roam free.

Mages are people, they've got the same fears and problems which everyone else faces and cannot be trusted in good conscious with that type of power. They can't be treated like everyone else because they aren't like everyone else.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juin 2013 - 11:52 .

[Iakus]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Okay, first off- points to you for the X-men argument.

Second; I think the main problem is exactly one Morrigan says to Wynne;
"

• Wynne: You would prefer a world where young mages were slain by the ignorant for their talent? Taught to fear their abilities?
• Morrigan: That is what the Circle teaches. You fear your abilities, instead of reveling in them.

That, I feel, is the main problem.

In places such as Rivain, the 'Seers' and mages are treated as high-class, they are given respect, not treated like wild animals who'll kill everyone at a moments notice. Heck, the Seers even let themselves be possessed, yet they don't go on horrific rampages all the time. The Circle there was functioning, with the mages being trained and allowed to visit their families; and there was no horrific incidents. Everyone was fine until the Seekers showed up and narked to the Divine, which led to the Rivain Circle being annuled.

In pretty much the rest of Thedas, (barring Dalish, Chasid etc) mages are told constantly they are inches from being crazed monsters and they have to be locked up and watched constantly because they are too weak and dangerous. However in places where they aren't treated as such, there is a crapload less bloodshed and crazed abominations.

And you likely have the Tevinter Imperium to thank for that fear. By all we've heard, they reveled in every magical atrocity known.  Their return is a constant fear 

It is my belief that the Circles were originally meant to be something akin to the Seers:  a place of refuge and safety for mages.  A sanctuary where they can live and freely practice magic without fear of being hunted down by ignorant fools.  They could be treated with respect and be supported by those who understood how having magic makes you different.  Templars would protect them from outsiders and from themselves should the worst come to be.  Obviously, it didn't work out that way.  Templars became jailors more than protectors, Sanctuary became a cage. The purpose of the Circles became lost. 

[KiwiQuiche]

iakus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Okay, first off- points to you for the X-men argument.

Second; I think the main problem is exactly one Morrigan says to Wynne;
"

• Wynne: You would prefer a world where young mages were slain by the ignorant for their talent? Taught to fear their abilities?
• Morrigan: That is what the Circle teaches. You fear your abilities, instead of reveling in them.

That, I feel, is the main problem.

In places such as Rivain, the 'Seers' and mages are treated as high-class, they are given respect, not treated like wild animals who'll kill everyone at a moments notice. Heck, the Seers even let themselves be possessed, yet they don't go on horrific rampages all the time. The Circle there was functioning, with the mages being trained and allowed to visit their families; and there was no horrific incidents. Everyone was fine until the Seekers showed up and narked to the Divine, which led to the Rivain Circle being annuled.

In pretty much the rest of Thedas, (barring Dalish, Chasid etc) mages are told constantly they are inches from being crazed monsters and they have to be locked up and watched constantly because they are too weak and dangerous. However in places where they aren't treated as such, there is a crapload less bloodshed and crazed abominations.

And you likely have the Tevinter Imperium to thank for that fear. By all we've heard, they reveled in every magical atrocity known.  Their return is a constant fear 

It is my belief that the Circles were originally meant to be something akin to the Seers:  a place of refuge and safety for mages.  A sanctuary where they can live and freely practice magic without fear of being hunted down by ignorant fools.  They could be treated with respect and be supported by those who understood how having magic makes you different.  Templars would protect them from outsiders and from themselves should the worst come to be.  Obviously, it didn't work out that way.  Templars became jailors more than protectors, Sanctuary became a cage. The purpose of the Circles became lost. 

[*]True, but the Chantry has just gone in over-drive with this, blaming the mages for everything, from Andraste's death to the Blight and not the men behind it and they therefore shove that guilt on the current mages, which is incredibly unfair.
[*]Indeed. I wouldn't mind it more like that; the Circle kinda being like a boarding school, or dare-I-say, like Hogwarts, where you do live there, yet you can walk about, go visit towns, get mail and go home to your family for the holidays. Or if you don't have a family, you can just stay at the Circle. And you are right, they completely missed the point of Circles now; they treat them as a prison of the un-judged and try to say it's what the Maker wills. I'm just surprised it took so long to blow up.
[*]Why are there bullets on my damn post? I can't get rid of them...

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll continue with this tangent,, I guess.

snip

It's the fact that our society is an extremely unhealthy place that is the problem. Fix the society problems, and you won't have all of the problems you mentioned, mage or not, sword or magic. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one doubts that mages can do heinous things. Tevinter alone proves that there are mages who are willing to do horrific things to other people (including other mages), but the issue becomes whether the Chantry controlled Circles should be the solution, or are part of another problem entirely when it comes to the issue of magic in Thedas. That's the crux of the matter with people who side with the mages - we see the Circles under Chantry and templar control as part of the problem.

I think at this point it's pretty clear the Circles failed twice.  Both in Tevinter and the rest of Thedas.

However, that doesn't mean a new solution needn't be sought.  I hold that the fears of the templars are valid, even if their methods are not.

You mean methods like keeping mages from marrying, separating them from their families (and the Circle in Rivain was Annulled because the Seers kept in contact with their families....no other reason has been given) and having all their children taken as chantry property?

Sorry, I see their methods as heionous, but the role of templar as necessary. And the role of templar is non-mages having the ability to negate magic, and thus serve as an effective police force against criminal elements of the mages. I don't think a fictional Stanford Prison Experiment as the status quo is wise no matter the demographic, be they mage or otherwise.

I don't trust mages to run things, but I game history and lore makes it very clear the templars and the chantry can't be trusted either. They're part of the problem in the current system. A new system is needed. One where the Templars and the Chantry don't have ALL the power.

Not all Circles seek to prevent mages from marrying or remaining in contact with their families. And the Rivain Circle was not annulled because it allowed its amges to keep contact with their families. Please stop spreading those lies. It was annulled because it was openly working together with apostates, and actively making female mages into Abominations.

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one doubts that mages can do heinous things. Tevinter alone proves that there are mages who are willing to do horrific things to other people (including other mages), but the issue becomes whether the Chantry controlled Circles should be the solution, or are part of another problem entirely when it comes to the issue of magic in Thedas. That's the crux of the matter with people who side with the mages - we see the Circles under Chantry and templar control as part of the problem.

I think at this point it's pretty clear the Circles failed twice.  Both in Tevinter and the rest of Thedas.

However, that doesn't mean a new solution needn't be sought.  I hold that the fears of the templars are valid, even if their methods are not.

You mean methods like keeping mages from marrying, separating them from their families (and the Circle in Rivain was Annulled because the Seers kept in contact with their families....no other reason has been given) and having all their children taken as chantry property?

Sorry, I see their methods as heionous, but the role of templar as necessary. And the role of templar is non-mages having the ability to negate magic, and thus serve as an effective police force against criminal elements of the mages. I don't think a fictional Stanford Prison Experiment as the status quo is wise no matter the demographic, be they mage or otherwise.

I don't trust mages to run things, but I game history and lore makes it very clear the templars and the chantry can't be trusted either. They're part of the problem in the current system. A new system is needed. One where the Templars and the Chantry don't have ALL the power.

Not all Circles seek to prevent mages from marrying or remaining in contact with their families. And the Rivain Circle was not annulled because it allowed its amges to keep contact with their families. Please stop spreading those lies. It was annulled because it was openly working together with apostates, and actively making female mages into Abominations.

Actually, the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

[Dave of Canada]

KainD wrote...

It's the fact that our society is an extremely unhealthy place that is the problem. Fix the society problems, and you won't have all of the problems you mentioned, mage or not, sword or magic. 

Good look fixing the unfixable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one doubts that mages can do heinous things. Tevinter alone proves that there are mages who are willing to do horrific things to other people (including other mages), but the issue becomes whether the Chantry controlled Circles should be the solution, or are part of another problem entirely when it comes to the issue of magic in Thedas. That's the crux of the matter with people who side with the mages - we see the Circles under Chantry and templar control as part of the problem.

I think at this point it's pretty clear the Circles failed twice.  Both in Tevinter and the rest of Thedas.

However, that doesn't mean a new solution needn't be sought.  I hold that the fears of the templars are valid, even if their methods are not.

You mean methods like keeping mages from marrying, separating them from their families (and the Circle in Rivain was Annulled because the Seers kept in contact with their families....no other reason has been given) and having all their children taken as chantry property?

Sorry, I see their methods as heionous, but the role of templar as necessary. And the role of templar is non-mages having the ability to negate magic, and thus serve as an effective police force against criminal elements of the mages. I don't think a fictional Stanford Prison Experiment as the status quo is wise no matter the demographic, be they mage or otherwise.

I don't trust mages to run things, but I game history and lore makes it very clear the templars and the chantry can't be trusted either. They're part of the problem in the current system. A new system is needed. One where the Templars and the Chantry don't have ALL the power.

Not all Circles seek to prevent mages from marrying or remaining in contact with their families. And the Rivain Circle was not annulled because it allowed its amges to keep contact with their families. Please stop spreading those lies. It was annulled because it was openly working together with apostates, and actively making female mages into Abominations.

Actually, the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

That is what the First Enchanter of the Circle in question claims, in a journal entry written while she was imprisoned by the Templars....

Since we know for a fact, that some Circles allow their members to remain in contact with their families, then we can acertain that this was certainly not the reason why the Rivain Circle was annulled. We do know however, that the Rivain Circle was practicing some rather questionable traditions, all of which constituted some unneccesary magical threats. For instance creating Abominations willingly, in an uncontrolled environment, and not apprehending known apostates, and actually openly working together with mentioned known apostates. There are certainly reasons enough for the Rivain Circle to be annulled, for some of the more hardliners of the Templars.

[Iakus]

KiwiQuiche wrote...


Actually, the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

"The nation's relative acceptance of magic, at least in the areas occupied by more traditional Rivaini, has led to an odd relationship with the Chantry and teh Circle of Magi.  The Circle of Rivain functions much like those elsewhere and are supported by the Andrastrian nobility.  However, they tolerate the work of the seers, allowing the wise women to keep apprentices and remain free so long as they aid the nation's templars when required"

[Boycott Bioware]

I really think everything about Tevinter Imperium being bad is a lie, because we never see it, we only hear about it from one source, The Chantry.

Fenris could be the second source but he's just unreliable, he just repeating the Chantry propaganda and he have a thing with Denarius.

If Tevinter Imperium is so bad, Fenryiel cannot survive, but yet he now can control his power, he even helping people using his power. He did tell about magic duel that happen in Tevinter, but what to expect in magical world? Magic duel in Tevinter is the same with Hawke smashing people head in Kirkwall on the street everyday.

Everything about Tevinter is a propaganda, no one ever know how Tevinter look like if not going there themselves, no one can make comparison between the good and the bad because nothing to be compared with only the Chantry propaganda.

Just because some Mages goes bad, they don't represent Tevinter Imperium, just as people of any religion or country don't represent the religion and the country they come from, it is individual. being good and bad is individual.

If Tevinter is so bad, no one want to trade with them, no one want to live in Tevinter, and the county fall by itself. It is just ridiculous.I could make an example in real world but this forum is not about real world. And by the way, Mages are born everyday, in Tevinter, in Orlais, in ferelden, in Kirkwall, in everywhere...Tevinter or not Mages re born everyday...

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Good look fixing the unfixable.

And then comes my second point:

If people don't want to live civilized, equal, don't want to be carring and loving to each other, then the second alternative is giving into primal instincts, to live by the rule of ''the strongest survives''. 

Then there is nothing wrong with hurting other people, killing them, inslaving them, if you are powerful enough to do it - go for it, you are just to do so in a world where everybody is out for their own. 

If you truly believe that society is unfixable then you should have absolutely no problems with morals such as Tevinter, they also don't believe in equality, and it is completely reasonable for the strongest to dominate the weaker. 

And of course you should have no problems yourself with stabbing every mage while looking them in the eyes and saying: ''I kill you because you are different and pose danger to me.'' Or inslaving them youself / making them tranquil. 

[Iakus]

Qistina wrote...

I really think everything about Tevinter Imperium being bad is a lie, because we never see it, we only hear about it from one source, The Chantry.

Fenris could be the second source but he's just unreliable, he just repeating the Chantry propaganda and he have a thing with Denarius.

If Tevinter Imperium is so bad, Fenryiel cannot survive, but yet he now can control his power, he even helping people using his power. He did tell about magic duel that happen in Tevinter, but what to expect in magical world? Magic duel in Tevinter is the same with Hawke smashing people head in Kirkwall on the street everyday.

Everything about Tevinter is a propaganda, no one ever know how Tevinter look like if not going there themselves, no one can make comparison between the good and the bad because nothing to be compared with only the Chantry propaganda.

Just because some Mages goes bad, they don't represent Tevinter Imperium, just as people of any religion or country don't represent the religion and the country they come from, it is individual. being good and bad is individual.

If Tevinter is so bad, no one want to trade with them, no one want to live in Tevinter, and the county fall by itself. It is just ridiculous.I could make an example in real world but this forum is not about real world. And by the way, Mages are born everyday, in Tevinter, in Orlais, in ferelden, in Kirkwall, in everywhere...Tevinter or not Mages re born everyday...

Actually, if Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he sends Hawke a leter from there saying he understands the templars in Kirkwall better for having seen it.

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one doubts that mages can do heinous things. Tevinter alone proves that there are mages who are willing to do horrific things to other people (including other mages), but the issue becomes whether the Chantry controlled Circles should be the solution, or are part of another problem entirely when it comes to the issue of magic in Thedas. That's the crux of the matter with people who side with the mages - we see the Circles under Chantry and templar control as part of the problem.

I think at this point it's pretty clear the Circles failed twice.  Both in Tevinter and the rest of Thedas.

However, that doesn't mean a new solution needn't be sought.  I hold that the fears of the templars are valid, even if their methods are not.

You mean methods like keeping mages from marrying, separating them from their families (and the Circle in Rivain was Annulled because the Seers kept in contact with their families....no other reason has been given) and having all their children taken as chantry property?

Sorry, I see their methods as heionous, but the role of templar as necessary. And the role of templar is non-mages having the ability to negate magic, and thus serve as an effective police force against criminal elements of the mages. I don't think a fictional Stanford Prison Experiment as the status quo is wise no matter the demographic, be they mage or otherwise.

I don't trust mages to run things, but I game history and lore makes it very clear the templars and the chantry can't be trusted either. They're part of the problem in the current system. A new system is needed. One where the Templars and the Chantry don't have ALL the power.

Not all Circles seek to prevent mages from marrying or remaining in contact with their families. And the Rivain Circle was not annulled because it allowed its amges to keep contact with their families. Please stop spreading those lies. It was annulled because it was openly working together with apostates, and actively making female mages into Abominations.

Actually, the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

That is what the First Enchanter of the Circle in question claims, in a journal entry written while she was imprisoned by the Templars....

Since we know for a fact, that some Circles allow their members to remain in contact with their families, then we can acertain that this was certainly not the reason why the Rivain Circle was annulled. We do know however, that the Rivain Circle was practicing some rather questionable traditions, all of which constituted some unneccesary magical threats. For instance creating Abominations willingly, in an uncontrolled environment, and not apprehending known apostates, and actually openly working together with mentioned known apostates. There are certainly reasons enough for the Rivain Circle to be annulled, for some of the more hardliners of the Templars.

They (Chantry) mainly tolerated this because they saw how the civilians and non-mages respected and liked the Seers and how it was so traditional to them; they knew they wouldn't tolerate them killing their wise-women for that, hence the Chantry being so wary. In other places though, mages are feared and outright hated, so the Chantry can do what they want with mages.

It was foolish- the possessed Seers don't go on murderous rampages and Rivain has been standing for quite a while. It's a massive difference from the fear-induced possessions in Circles and elseware.

iakus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


Actually,
the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling
with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a
lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have
been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

"The
nation's relative acceptance of magic, at least in the areas occupied
by more traditional Rivaini, has led to an odd relationship with the
Chantry and teh Circle of Magi.  The Circle of Rivain functions much
like those elsewhere and are supported by the Andrastrian nobility.  However,
they tolerate the work of the seers, allowing the wise women to keep
apprentices and remain free so long as they aid the nation's templars
when required"

Note the "and" in my sentence.

[KiwiQuiche]

iakus wrote...

Qistina wrote...

I really think everything about Tevinter Imperium being bad is a lie, because we never see it, we only hear about it from one source, The Chantry.

Fenris could be the second source but he's just unreliable, he just repeating the Chantry propaganda and he have a thing with Denarius.

If Tevinter Imperium is so bad, Fenryiel cannot survive, but yet he now can control his power, he even helping people using his power. He did tell about magic duel that happen in Tevinter, but what to expect in magical world? Magic duel in Tevinter is the same with Hawke smashing people head in Kirkwall on the street everyday.

Everything about Tevinter is a propaganda, no one ever know how Tevinter look like if not going there themselves, no one can make comparison between the good and the bad because nothing to be compared with only the Chantry propaganda.

Just because some Mages goes bad, they don't represent Tevinter Imperium, just as people of any religion or country don't represent the religion and the country they come from, it is individual. being good and bad is individual.

If Tevinter is so bad, no one want to trade with them, no one want to live in Tevinter, and the county fall by itself. It is just ridiculous.I could make an example in real world but this forum is not about real world. And by the way, Mages are born everyday, in Tevinter, in Orlais, in ferelden, in Kirkwall, in everywhere...Tevinter or not Mages re born everyday...

Actually, if Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he sends Hawke a leter from there saying he understands the templars in Kirkwall better for having seen it.

Just because you understand doesn't mean you condone.

[KainD]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Just because you understand doesn't mean you condone.

Fenriel was pretty happy in Tevinter and thanked Hawke, yes. 

Modifié par KainD, 10 juin 2013 - 01:02 .

[KiwiQuiche]

KainD wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Just because you understand doesn't mean you condone.

Fenriel was pretty happy in Tevinter and thanked Hawke, ye. 

Indeed he was.

Um, did part of your sentence get cut off?

[KainD]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Um, did part of your sentence get cut off?

Just one letter.