1081 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes that was my point- yet you cannot regulate people. Doing so has lead to the current Mage/Templar War; people, surprisingly, do not like being taken from their families and imprisioned all their life. It tends to breed resentment.

We regulate people all of the time. Society exists because we regulate people. Almost everything we do is regulated in some manner or another. 

We also restrict freedom all of the time. Property, for example, is all about restricting things which (physically speaking) you could do with no problem (e.g. taking someone's laptop). 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Qistina wrote...

I really think everything about Tevinter Imperium being bad is a lie, because we never see it, we only hear about it from one source, The Chantry.

Fenris could be the second source but he's just unreliable, he just repeating the Chantry propaganda and he have a thing with Denarius.

We see Tevinter slavers in parts of the narrative that Fenris is not directly involved in, though that might be explained as Varric lying to the Seeker and telling her what she wants to hear. No, the real proof you are wrong is the Alienage slavers in DA:O. That, I think, is something you would not see under your interpretation of the lore.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 juin 2013 - 03:23 .

[Boycott Bioware]

iakus wrote...
Actually, if Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he sends Hawke a leter from there saying he understands the templars in Kirkwall better for having seen it.

Tevinters have their own Templars too, what he mean is he understand why the Templar is so bad in Kirkwall

[KiwiQuiche]

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes that was my point- yet you cannot regulate people. Doing so has lead to the current Mage/Templar War; people, surprisingly, do not like being taken from their families and imprisioned all their life. It tends to breed resentment.

We regulate people all of the time. Society exists because we regulate people. Almost everything we do is regulated in some manner or another. 

We also restrict freedom all of the time. Property, for example, is all about restricting things which (physically speaking) you could do with no problem (e.g. taking someone's laptop). 

Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

[Boycott Bioware]

Kirkwal don't have what Fenriyel need, no where have what Fenriyel need, Fenriyel need a solution for his problem, no one can provide the solution for him, not even the Dalish Keeper

But Tevinter have what Fenriyel need, and so those who similar with Fenriyel, Tevinter have the solution, not only saving Fenriyel life, but also saving others. Fenriyel can control himself, become confident, no longer fear and he's free.If Fenriyel stay in Kirkwal or any other places, he endanger not only himself but others.

Isn't that the solution for all Mages and Circle system only makes things worst?

And isn't that make Tevinter a good place for all Mages and have a very good system that solve every Mages problem?

[Medhia Nox]

@KiwiQuiche: You sure?

Just because the people we imprison - and the way we imprison them - have either gone beyond your notice or beyond your empathy - doesn't make it any less of a form of imprisonment.

We decide every day what is "normal" for people - and imprison those we do not want to deal with in institutions all the time (or worse, in their own bodies through massive amounts of drugs making them quite "Tranquil").

Some - I would even argue - we do so with justification.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 juin 2013 - 02:01 .

[Iakus]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...


Actually,
the Seers/mages in the Circle were decleared apostates due to mingling
with family and letting themselves get possessed. But fun fact- not a
lot of the possessed Seers went batsh!t, the Rivain circle would have
been fine if the stupid Seekers hadn't narked.

[/quote]

"The
nation's relative acceptance of magic, at least in the areas occupied
by more traditional Rivaini, has led to an odd relationship with the
Chantry and teh Circle of Magi.  The Circle of Rivain functions much
like those elsewhere and are supported by the Andrastrian nobility.  However,
they tolerate the work of the seers, allowing the wise women to keep
apprentices and remain free so long as they aid the nation's templars
when required"


[/quote]

Note the "and" in my sentence.

[/quote]

You made it sound like they annulled the Rivaini Circle for granting family visitation.  Allowing demonic possession knowing it's strictly against the rules is something quite different.

[Iakus]

Qistina wrote...

iakus wrote...
Actually, if Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he sends Hawke a leter from there saying he understands the templars in Kirkwall better for having seen it.

Tevinters have their own Templars too, what he mean is he understand why the Templar is so bad in Kirkwall

The templars in tevinter have zero authority.  Feynriel saw one mage kill another in a magical duel. He understands why templars are afriad of what mages could do if they hadf a mind to.

[Boycott Bioware]

Just imagine what if Fenriyel goes to the Circle and there is no Hawke?

Fenriyel is a Dreamer, more powerful than any mages, Dreamer abomination is unstoppable as according to Merethari.

The Circle may Tranquilize him but what if they are too late to Tranquilize him or the process failed because a Dreamer is different than normal Mages?

What if Fenriyel going to Harrowing and failed? Dreamer abomination is unstoppable

Fenriyel is saved only by going to Tevinter because only there have what Fenriyel need, the solution, the answer, training, tutors, everything what people like Fenriyel need. If Fenriyel goes to the Circle and the is no Hawke who come to the rescue, it is a disaster

[Boycott Bioware]

The templars in tevinter have zero authority. Feynriel saw one mage kill another in a magical duel. He understands why templars are afriad of what mages could do if they hadf a mind to.

And what is the difference with Hawke going rampage on the street with giant sword? Assassinating noble, guards have no authority to apprehend Hawke,

And so the Carta, Pirates, Guardsmen Pretenders and many others having blood bath every night and day?

No difference at all.

"my sword is my authority".

Modifié par Qistina, 10 juin 2013 - 02:05 .

[Plaintiff]

iakus wrote...
The templars in tevinter have zero authority.

"Working for mages" =/= "has zero authority". They still answer directly to the religious leader of the country, which puts them higher in the social strata of Tevinter than practically anybody.

Tevinter Templars have been born and raised there, and the cultural values of Tevinter have been internalized and normalized for them. They don't lack power, they just don't fight against the system because they are familiar with it and might even like it. Being a Templar beats being a slave, and is probably one of the better positions that a non-mage in Tevinter can hope to acheive.

[In Exile]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

No, but there's a wide gulf between that and absolute freedom, which none of us have. So assuming you're not an anarchist, you do accept the limit of freedom on the basis of public interest.

The only remaining Q is what level of intrusion is justified, and what the scheme should be. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

It's the fact that our society is an extremely unhealthy place that is the problem. Fix the society problems, and you won't have all of the problems you mentioned, mage or not, sword or magic.

That is.... so much wishfull thinking it's beyond counting.

Fix human nature and the world?
Remove all problems and traumas and tempations from the world?

Good luck.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

iakus wrote...
The templars in tevinter have zero authority.

"Working for mages" =/= "has zero authority". They still answer directly to the religious leader of the country, which puts them higher in the social strata of Tevinter than practically anybody.

Tevinter Templars have been born and raised there, and the cultural values of Tevinter have been internalized and normalized for them. They don't lack power, they just don't fight against the system because they are familiar with it and might even like it.

Considering they're essentially little more then cannon fodder troops with absolutely no Templar abilities (save for a few lucky ones) because the Magisters, Archon, and Black Divine control the lyrium supply of Tevinter and horde it, I wouldn't say they necessarily like being Templars.

It beats being a slave, sure, but that doesn't mean it's a good place. I mean, I get that the outlook on magic and its purpose is different there and thus it isn't comparable to magic's outlook in White Chantry lands (an argument I've made before), but even so... I doubt they find it a particularly nice place to be any time they see a child sacrificed because of a Magister's whims.

They may tolerate it because legally they're supposed to not fight against it, but that's different.

Also, Lambert fought against the system. As a result, the current Black Divine (his former friend) has stonewalled the Templars from doing their duties properly and diminished their power (which probably includes how many of them there are as well).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

iakus wrote...
Actually, if Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he sends Hawke a leter from there saying he understands the templars in Kirkwall better for having seen it.

Tevinters have their own Templars too, what he mean is he understand why the Templar is so bad in Kirkwall

He means he understands why templars are so strict - after seeing what goes on in Tevinter.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He means he understands why templars are so strict - after seeing what goes on in Tevinter.

And yet he survive because the Templars are not strict as in Kirkwal, or else he will not be what he is in Tevinter, he could become an unstoppable abomination ever existed for a very long time in history

[KiwiQuiche]

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

No, but there's a wide gulf between that and absolute freedom, which none of us have. So assuming you're not an anarchist, you do accept the limit of freedom on the basis of public interest.

The only remaining Q is what level of intrusion is justified, and what the scheme should be. 

I would be lying if I said I don't have a touch of Bomb Throwing Anarchist in me.

The current level is not and needs a massive reform; but the War is seeing to that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

We do if given enough reason to do so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He means he understands why templars are so strict - after seeing what goes on in Tevinter.

And yet he survive because the Templars are not strict as in Kirkwal, or else he will not be what he is in Tevinter, he could become an unstoppable abomination ever existed for a very long time in history

He still can become and unstoppable abomination...and given the power he wields, he can become a horrific tyrant.
The danger didn't go away. It just changed adress.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He still can become and unstoppable abomination...and given the power he wields, he can become a horrific tyrant.
The danger didn't go away. It just changed adress.

But it have been proven otherwise isn't he?

Going to Tevinter didn't make him a bad bat**** insane and abominations like most Mages in Kirkwal

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

We do if given enough reason to do so.

We imprison people for their deeds, not for being born a certain way.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

We imprison people for their deeds, not for being born a certain way.

We also imprisoned entire people for fear of a few of them being spies, can't forget the plague houses too where we imprisoned unafflicted into a house with afflicted individuals out of fear. Hell, my cousin was locked up in the asylum for fear that his mental condition could worsen and he could become violent.

We've always valued the majority over the minority.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 juin 2013 - 11:34 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yet we don't imprision people because they are born a certain way.

We do if given enough reason to do so.

...



No, I won't invoke Godwin's Law.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We imprison people for their deeds, not for being born a certain way.

We also imprisoned entire people for fear of a few of them being spies, can't forget the plague houses too where we imprisoned unafflicted into a house with afflicted individuals out of fear. Hell, my cousin was locked up in the asylum for fear that his mental condition could worsen and he could become violent.

We've always valued the majority over the minority.

Both of the first two were also wrong. As for the third, I need more information on that, but in that case, the problem was still a pattern of behavior and not mere capability.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Qistina wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
He still can become and unstoppable abomination...and given the power he wields, he can become a horrific tyrant.
The danger didn't go away. It just changed adress.

But it have been proven otherwise isn't he?

Going to Tevinter didn't make him a bad bat**** insane and abominations like most Mages in Kirkwal

Yet. He has not become either, yet. Letting Feynriel go, is one of the most reckless and highly irresponsible actions Hawke can make, if you ask me.