1081 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, from a companion perspective, we've had, what, Alistar, who has Templar abilities but isn't really a Templar (he doesn't guard mages, he doesn't hunt apostates or maleficar, etc). On the mage side, we've had a Witch of the Wilds, a Circle Senior Enchanter, a Circle mage turned apostate, a Keeper, a Keeper/Maleficar and an apostate.

It's fairly heavily biased in favor of one side.

Templars are all part of one organization; insight about some is insight about most. The mages are mostly from different backgrounds.

http://replygif.net/i/172
I wont even bother.....

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, from a companion perspective, we've had, what, Alistar, who has Templar abilities but isn't really a Templar (he doesn't guard mages, he doesn't hunt apostates or maleficar, etc). On the mage side, we've had a Witch of the Wilds, a Circle Senior Enchanter, a Circle mage turned apostate, a Keeper, a Keeper/Maleficar and an apostate.

It's fairly heavily biased in favor of one side.

Templars are all part of one organization; insight about some is insight about most. The mages are mostly from different backgrounds.

Ahaha, you're such a fun parody, Xil. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, from a companion perspective, we've had, what, Alistar, who has Templar abilities but isn't really a Templar (he doesn't guard mages, he doesn't hunt apostates or maleficar, etc). On the mage side, we've had a Witch of the Wilds, a Circle Senior Enchanter, a Circle mage turned apostate, a Keeper, a Keeper/Maleficar and an apostate.

It's fairly heavily biased in favor of one side.

First, Merrill was the former First, not a Keeper.

Second, Cullen might be a mandatory companion in Inquisition, along with Cassandra. We might have no choice in the matter of their company.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Second, Cullen might be a mandatory companion in Inquisition, along with Cassandra. We might have no choice in the matter of their company.

So?

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

First, Merrill was the former First, not a Keeper.

Second, Cullen might be a mandatory companion in Inquisition, along with Cassandra. We might have no choice in the matter of their company.

Spec says Keeper and blood mage Keeper.  Besides, her topic claims she is a Keeper. But I suppose you want to dispute that too?

Okay.... I'm not sure where you're going with this, because you're postulating on what we *might* have in the future, while I'm saying what we have had.  Merrill and Anders were required, I believe, and Morrigan has the audacity to return even if you send her away.

And even if Cullen *is* a companion, and the trailer did not imply that to me at all, that is, what, 1 for 2?  And Cassandra is a Seeker, so I'm not sure why you're bringing her up at all.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Second, Cullen might be a mandatory companion in Inquisition, along with Cassandra. We might have no choice in the matter of their company.

So?

The pro-templar fans could be getting templar companions. I thought the point was apparent.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 juin 2013 - 03:36 .

[BlueMagitek]

Again, only one of those two are Templar, the other is a Seeker (completely different order).

And even if they are, there's still a large discrepancy, even if you count Alistar. We've been exposed to many different views from different mages that we have gotten to know, from Morrigan to Bethany, on Circles, the Fade and a host of other things.

Are you truly unable to see the issue there, if you just compare mages and templar?

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

First, Merrill was the former First, not a Keeper.

Second, Cullen might be a mandatory companion in Inquisition, along with Cassandra. We might have no choice in the matter of their company.

Spec says Keeper and blood mage Keeper.  Besides, her topic claims she is a Keeper. But I suppose you want to dispute that too?

Okay.... I'm not sure where you're going with this, because you're postulating on what we *might* have in the future, while I'm saying what we have had.  Merrill and Anders were required, I believe, and Morrigan has the audacity to return even if you send her away.

And even if Cullen *is* a companion, and the trailer did not imply that to me at all, that is, what, 1 for 2?  And Cassandra is a Seeker, so I'm not sure why you're bringing her up at all.

Merrill was the First, not the Keeper. It's not up for debate.

Also, Cullen and Cassandra could be mandatory companions, so we have to put up with them if they turn out to be mandatory companions. Pro-mage fans included. And the Seekers seem to be little more than 'elite templars', so I see no reason to discount her from the discussion.

As Xil pointed out earlier, we received different cultural perspectives with the different mage companions - Merrill was Dalish and Anders was Andrastian, while Morrigan reveled in her freedom as Wynne supported the Chantry controlled Circle, for example. I'm sure Cullen and Cassandra will add templar perspectives to the narrative, whether we care to have them along or not.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 juin 2013 - 03:46 .

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Again, only one of those two are Templar, the other is a Seeker (completely different order).

And even if they are, there's still a large discrepancy, even if you count Alistar. We've been exposed to many different views from different mages that we have gotten to know, from Morrigan to Bethany, on Circles, the Fade and a host of other things.

Are you truly unable to see the issue there, if you just compare mages and templar?

Again, the templars are more or less homogenous, while the mages are not. Biological conditions will always have more variance than organizations; you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...

you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

Bull****

[Xilizhra]

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

Bull****

Really? I can think of a few just off the top of my head. For instance, there are left-handed men who are unwilling to tolerate having terrible haircuts.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Again, only one of those two are Templar, the other is a Seeker (completely different order).

I'm sure Lambert would disagree.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And even if they are, there's still a large discrepancy, even if you count Alistar. We've been exposed to many different views from different mages that we have gotten to know, from Morrigan to Bethany, on Circles, the Fade and a host of other things.

I don't think it's a competition. Given Cullen's dim view on mages and Cassandra's support for the Chantry, I'm sure they'll give plenty of their own perspective for pro-templar fans.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Are you truly unable to see the issue there, if you just compare mages and templar?

As Xil pointed out, we had culturally different mages in the games. It's not as though we were only exposed to one perspective. And the templar perspective on magic would be problematic with a mage protagonist and fellow apostates.

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

Bull****

Really? I can think of a few just off the top of my head. For instance, there are left-handed men who are unwilling to tolerate having terrible haircuts.

Really? A bad haircut joke is your defence for once again generalizing a large and very diverse group to suit your agenda?

Like I have said before. You are just as bad as the Templars that do the same to mages.

[Xilizhra]

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

Bull****

Really? I can think of a few just off the top of my head. For instance, there are left-handed men who are unwilling to tolerate having terrible haircuts.

Really? A bad haircut joke is your defence for once again generalizing a large and very diverse group to suit your agenda?

Like I have said before. You are just as bad as the Templars that do the same to mages.

I thought it was painfully obvious, which is why I made a joke about it. Since we don't currently have a draft going, the Army (I know there are non-combat roles, but even those need to have some combat training, IIRC) consists solely of people patriotic enough to die and kill for their country, which is a major personality trait in and of itself. Similarly, the templar codex entry explicitly says they filter out moral people who might ask awkward questions and prefer zealots who'll do anything their masters tell them.

Also, making personality generalizations about mages isn't even close to what I was blaming the templars for. It was the imprisoning, torturing and killing that irked me more.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army. 

Bull****

Xil's point is the difference between mages and templars. Hypothetical templar companions would be culturally and religiously Andrastian, while mages can come from any background, religious view, and affiliation. I'm not sure why pointing this out earlier was so controversial. Different people can be templars, but they share many common traits, unlike mages, who can be quite diverse.

Also, we had three pro-Chantry companions in Origins, giving us their perspective. It's not like things were slanted towards a pro-mage view.

[Gilbert Salarian]

Well, all Templars will burn in a Firestorm, and since Xil is for their extermination that's all that really matters.

On the topic about mage/templar companions, it is indisputable that we have had more intimate exposure to mage perspectives than templar perspectives. However, because one is a military order it will necessarily have fewer perspectives because of the commonality of their origins.  To build on what Lobs said, Templars can come from many backgrounds: rich, poor, urban, rural, Orlesian, Fereldan, etc.  However, they all pass through ONE training whose purpose is to make them Templars.  They will retain a little of their in-born identity, but they will become more monochromatic in their thoughts as a result of their training. 

Because mages are born and not made, there will be more perspectives on their plight. I'm perfectly content to have the current balance of mage vs. templar companions, so long as the story gives both equal story treatment.

Modifié par Gilbert Salarian, 12 juin 2013 - 04:19 .

[TEWR]

Besides, her topic claims she is a Keeper. But I suppose you want to dispute that too?

That's cuz it's a play on words.

[Medhia Nox]

Yeah - cause Alistair was so devoutly Andrastian.

Umm... the common traits of mages are 1) can cast some form of spell 2) can be turned into an abomination 3) demons actively want to use you as a hand puppet.

Why do you ignore the obvious to support your cause?

Those are BORN traits... templars have no born traits.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 juin 2013 - 04:16 .

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...

I thought it was painfully obvious, which is why I made a joke about it. Since we don't currently have a draft going, the Army (I know there are non-combat roles, but even those need to have some combat training, IIRC) consists solely of people patriotic enough to die and kill for their country, which is a major personality trait in and of itself. Similarly, the templar codex entry explicitly says they filter out moral people who might ask awkward questions and prefer zealots who'll do anything their masters tell them.

Also, making personality generalizations about mages isn't even close to what I was blaming the templars for. It was the imprisoning, torturing and killing that irked me more.

Don't. Thread after thread you are happy to demonize populations based on a few.

I don't know what a draft has anything to do with anything.

Yes all soldiers gets schooled in combat. It kind of goes with the job.

No it does not "consist solely of people patriotic enough to die and kill for their country" 

Its not even worth the keystrokes anymore. My hope is that you keep your social crusades to this fictional setting because you would only harm and real social causes.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, the templars are more or less homogenous, while the mages are not. Biological conditions will always have more variance than organizations; you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

8/10 troll, you had me for a bit but no-one can be this ignorant.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, the templars are more or less homogenous, while the mages are not. Biological conditions will always have more variance than organizations; you'll find more diverse personalities among left-handed people than in the US Army.

8/10 troll, you had me for a bit but no-one can be this ignorant. 

Xil does point out she's kidding around a few posts up, and that in all seriousness, it's mostly an issue of having templars who share many common traits (like their support for Chantry controlled Circles and being Andrastian) contrasted with mages, who only share the trait of magical abilities, and who have much more leeway in terms of their inception, religious views, cultural background, and more.

[ParatrooperSean]

Xilizhra wrote...
I thought it was painfully obvious, which is why I made a joke about it. Since we don't currently have a draft going, the Army (I know there are non-combat roles, but even those need to have some combat training, IIRC) consists solely of people patriotic enough to die and kill for their country, which is a major personality trait in and of itself. Similarly, the templar codex entry explicitly says they filter out moral people who might ask awkward questions and prefer zealots who'll do anything their masters tell them.

Also, making personality generalizations about mages isn't even close to what I was blaming the templars for. It was the imprisoning, torturing and killing that irked me more.

9 years active duty, currently serving with 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne out of Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about, so please just stop talking.

Edit: After reading more of your posts with a little more context I think I may have been a bit harsh.

I believe the point you're making is that the US Army has some cultural comonalities, while biological traits (hair color, left-handedness, etc.) share no cultural bonds. You just need to try to read your own posts from a 3rd person perspective to see how they come across.

The US Army is a very diverse organization across all lines, sans gender. As compared to the general population there's considerably less women.

Modifié par ParatrooperSean, 12 juin 2013 - 04:51 .

[addiction21]

Is it like mages sharing traits that they can level towns and cities because some demon takes control of them?

Both you and Xilihara continue to dehumanize anyone that does not fall in line with your beliefs while those on your side get put up on a pedestal.

The Templars and Anrastians are just mindless zombies while the mages are some unique special group that are so enlightened and can do no wrong, except when they do, do wrong and its always someone else's fault.

[Peer of the Empire]

Templars rule

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 12 juin 2013 - 04:54 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

Is it like mages sharing traits that they can level towns and cities because some demon takes control of them?

Both you and Xilihara continue to dehumanize anyone that does not fall in line with your beliefs while those on your side get put up on a pedestal.

The Templars and Anrastians are just mindless zombies while the mages are some unique special group that are so enlightened and can do no wrong, except when they do, do wrong and its always someone else's fault.

Mages can be Andrastians, too, which was pointed out. Anders was the example provided. However, they aren't limited to being Andrastian, while templars are a military order from a religious organization that subjugated mages for nearly a millennia. The Avvar, the Chasind, the Rivaini, the Dalish, the Qunari, and Tevinter are societies that all have mages. You're clearly going to get more diversity among diverse groups of people from all across the continent who are only linked by one single trait (magic).

Better luck vilifying me next time.