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[Senya]

^
Truthfully, I felt he had some good points, but I never saw any of his other posts, so I read those posts on their own merits. Now, he just invalidates his own argument.

No matter. I was Pro-Compromise beforehand and will be Pro-Compromise now. If a Templar or a Mage acts like that, they had better change their tune around me.

@Filament Hopefully the Loyalists have the sense to throw themselves at the Divine instead of the rogue Templars. If Lambert is alive, I harbor no illusions about him.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 08:50 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

So, in my Inquisition, I'd incorporate moderate Templars and moderate Mages and, hopefully, I'll get them to play nice or I'll turn the car around.

If I had to assume, the moderate faction is likely the Divine. Templar who feel uncomfortable leaving the Chantry will remain with her, Chantry Loyalists will probably throw themselves at the Templar or the Divine and we've got Cassandra's Seekers aligned with the Divine instead of Lambert.

The Divine (**** her) might also be dead, keep in mind.

[sandalisthemaker]

Filament wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Hmm.
This imagery is...questionable at best.

And he wonders why some didn't buy the pretty words of this "perspective" as genuine.

Word.

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Yeah. Lotion made a couple written arguments earlier, but that's kind of, well, I don't know what to say.

On topic:

Templars- Flawed
Mages- Flawed
Circle- Flawed
Chantry- Flawed

So, I wouldn't say most Templars wake up in the morning deciding to kill, torture, and rape Mages anymore than most Mages wake up one day with becoming abominations or resortin to blood magic.

So, in my Inquisition, I'd incorporate moderate Templars and moderate Mages and, hopefully, I'll get them to play nice or I'll turn the car around.

There are no moderate templars. There might be moderate ex-templars, but the Order as a whole is radical and monstrous.

[Senya]

@Xila Hopefully not. For all her failures, I liked someone in power not being pro-Compromise. And I would disagree. In-game, I have seen a good amount of decent Templars like Cullen before being tortured by blood mages and Ser Wesley. Gregoire seemed decent in-game, though maybe not in the comics as I haven't read them.

One thing Lotion is right about is that no group should be demonized. I hate collectivism. The Templar Order simply had no good checks on it.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

@Xila Hopefully not. For all her failures, I liked someone in power not being pro-Compromise. And I would disagree. In-game, I have seen a good amount of decent Templars like Cullen before being tortured by blood mages and Ser Wesley. Gregoire seemed decent in-game, though maybe not in the comics as I haven't read them.

One thing Lotion is right about is that no group should be demonized. I hate collectivism. The Templar Order simply had no good checks on it.

There might have been templars who could lie to themselves enough to stay decent-ish in the Order before Asunder, but now that the lines have been drawn... any who could still call themselves decent will have left.

This is why no one takes you seriously and just mocks the **** out of you when you post

*points to Almost's above post*

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 juin 2013 - 08:58 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
There are no moderate templars. There might be moderate ex-templars, but the Order as a whole is radical and monstrous.

This is why no one takes you seriously and just mocks the **** out of you when you post

Not everyone.
I admire her tenacity and conviction.

[Steelcan]

just saying I'm sure there were otherwise normal people just swept up by hype and lies in a number of nasty organizations such as the SS, KGB, etc...

Why would the Templars be an exception?

[Senya]

^^
Not to mention it is the only system they would know, which I think people often forget.

Xilizhra wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

@Xila Hopefully not. For all her failures, I liked someone in power not being pro-Compromise. And I would disagree. In-game, I have seen a good amount of decent Templars like Cullen before being tortured by blood mages and Ser Wesley. Gregoire seemed decent in-game, though maybe not in the comics as I haven't read them.

One thing Lotion is right about is that no group should be demonized. I hate collectivism. The Templar Order simply had no good checks on it.

There might have been templars who could lie to themselves enough to stay decent-ish in the Order before Asunder, but now that the lines have been drawn... any who could still call themselves decent will have left.

There could still be those conflicted. They might not see all the options. Then there are those who stayed with the Divine. If you define marching on the Mages as the line crossed, then those who are with the Divine would not have crossed it yet.

As it is, this is a desperate situation. Any Templar or Mage that subscribes or can be converted to the idea of moderation is welcome with reparations and justice later. Blood Magic, demon-summoning, and magic lyrium swords are still a no-no, though.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 09:21 .

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

There are no moderate templars. There might be moderate ex-templars, but the Order as a whole is radical and monstrous.

I don't know about that...

Alrik was clearly an extreme case. As far as I can tell the templars do not want to go that far (yet). So clearly there are moderate templars: The ones that wants to return to status quo without reform of the circles. Which, again, as far as I can tell are the larger bunch. Even Lambert seem to hold a position no worse than that.

Besides... the templars aren't radical. The mages are. Radical implies you want to change things. The templars are reactionary.

[Xilizhra]

There could still be those conflicted. They might not see all the options. Then there are those who stayed with the Divine. If you define marching on the Mages as the line crossed, then those who are with the Divine would not have crossed it yet.

As it is, this is a desperate situation. Any Templar or Mage that subscribes or can be converted to the idea of moderation is welcome with reparations and justice later. Blood Magic, demon-summoning, and magic lyrium swords are still a no-no, though.

Blood magic is far too useful a tool to ban outright. Demonology... maybe, that's rarely led to anything good, but blood magic might be something we need. More than templars, at any rate.

Alrik was clearly an extreme case. As far as I can tell the templars do not want to go that far (yet). So clearly there are moderate templars: The ones that wants to return to status quo without reform of the circles. Which, again, as far as I can tell are the larger bunch. Even Lambert seem to hold a position no worse than that.

Which means little, as that's a terrible position to hold.

Besides... the templars aren't radical. The mages are. Radical implies you want to change things. The templars are reactionary.

They effectively want to take over the Chantry.

[Senya]

Woah, Xil. Blood magic is always open to abuse. If magic can be likened to an open flame, blood magic is like a bomb dropped from an aircraft. If experienced Templars can be disabled by Jowan, what about ordinary people, even if they are given Templar training?

Word of Gaider states clearly that blood magic feeds off of death. And demonology is a definite no. Name one instance when summoning demons ever worked out in-game.

As for those favoring the status quo, I would look at them in-universe. While it's a bad position to hold, they might not know of any other way besides the Imperium way. So, I wouldn't condemn them if they ever changed their position. I'd applaud them. I don't want the old status quo, but I don't expected anything over 20 % of Thedas seeing that, at least, not initially.

[sandalisthemaker]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Woah, Xil. Blood magic is always open to abuse. If magic can be likened to an open flame, blood magic is like a bomb dropped from an aircraft. If experienced Templars can be disabled by Jowan, what about ordinary people, even if they are given Templar training?
.

I think this is her point.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which means little, as that's a terrible position to hold.

Sure. But among templars it's moderate. So saying there's only extremist templars is a bit incorrect.

The extremists are the really bad ones. The ones like Alrik.

They effectively want to take over the Chantry.

If they were radical, it'd be about tearing it down.

Radicalism is about change. It's polar opposite is reactionism. The templars do not want change, they want things to stay where they are. Lambert explicitely writes that in his declaration to Justinia.

[Senya]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Woah, Xil. Blood magic is always open to abuse. If magic can be likened to an open flame, blood magic is like a bomb dropped from an aircraft. If experienced Templars can be disabled by Jowan, what about ordinary people, even if they are given Templar training?
.

I think this is her point.

And I do not think that blood magic will suddenly go away once the war is won. Many Mages who use it won't give it up, reasoning that it had helped win them their freedom and therefore it's not evil. Not to mention that the common people fear blood magic and for good reason. A Mage army using blood magic is enough to turn the populace against them, creating a terrible scenario should the Mages win.

Common people will not have the ability to protect themselves from blood magic, even if they manage to get Templar training. However, that won't stop widespread resentment and rebellion, requiring the Mages to literally use magic to rule man by putting those rebellions down. And if blood magic is used to put down those rebellions...

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 10:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Sure. But among templars it's moderate. So saying there's only extremist templars is a bit incorrect.

The extremists are the really bad ones. The ones like Alrik.

No, you have to be a radical templar to be a moderate in the war. Ordinary templars are extremists by default.

And I do not think that blood magic will suddenly go away once the war is won. Many mage who use it won't give it up. Not to mention that the common people fear blood magic and for good reason. A Mage army using blood magic is enough to turn the populace against them, creating a terrible scenario should the Mages win.

That's why using it openly is a bad idea. Use it when necessary and with discretion. The time to use it openly is when fighting the demons, to demonstrate it being used for good for the world as a whole.

Word of Gaider states clearly that blood magic feeds off of death. And demonology is a definite no. Name one instance when summoning demons ever worked out in-game.

It can, yes. But it can feed on things other than death. As for the other thing, none thus far, but I'm open to the possibility (cautiously).

As for those favoring the status quo, I would look at them in-universe. While it's a bad position to hold, they might not know of any other way besides the Imperium way. So, I wouldn't condemn them if they ever changed their position. I'd applaud them. I don't want the old status quo, but I don't expected anything over 20 % of Thedas seeing that, at least, not initially.

Why would I condemn them if they changed their position?

[Senya]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure. But among templars it's moderate. So saying there's only extremist templars is a bit incorrect.

The extremists are the really bad ones. The ones like Alrik.

No, you have to be a radical templar to be a moderate in the war. Ordinary templars are extremists by default.

And I do not think that blood magic will suddenly go away once the war is won. Many mage who use it won't give it up. Not to mention that the common people fear blood magic and for good reason. A Mage army using blood magic is enough to turn the populace against them, creating a terrible scenario should the Mages win.

That's why using it openly is a bad idea. Use it when necessary and with discretion. The time to use it openly is when fighting the demons, to demonstrate it being used for good for the world as a whole.

Word of Gaider states clearly that blood magic feeds off of death. And demonology is a definite no. Name one instance when summoning demons ever worked out in-game.

It can, yes. But it can feed on things other than death. As for the other thing, none thus far, but I'm open to the possibility (cautiously).

As for those favoring the status quo, I would look at them in-universe. While it's a bad position to hold, they might not know of any other way besides the Imperium way. So, I wouldn't condemn them if they ever changed their position. I'd applaud them. I don't want the old status quo, but I don't expected anything over 20 % of Thedas seeing that, at least, not initially.

Why would I condemn them if they changed their position?

Secretly using blood magic seems to have potential for blowback. People will find out, particularly in Orlais. Not all Bards will be gone and even if it's demonstrate on demons, people will still fear it being used on them. People will not forget that human sacrifices can be used to fuel it, particularly if a rogue Blood Mage does so. And it is inevitable that there will be one eventually. Scholars will also not forget its historical use. Of course, teaching about its dangers and possible abuse could be censored.

I also do not know of any other source for blood magic other than blood, life itself. And, in World of Thedas it is explicitly stated to feed on death. As for demonology, you are harnessing a hostile force that will turn on you at the first opportunity. Not only that, but you are tearing the Veil to summon a demon. Not even Anders was into doing that sort of thing. If someone who has rejected the Chantry still stands against Blood Magic and demonology,  then there is a good reason.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you have to be a radical templar to be a moderate in the war. Ordinary templars are extremists by default.

Absolutist statements like that leave very little room for reasonable discussion.

As to the claim, from bethany's codex entry if she enters the Circle:


Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

Word of Gaider states clearly that blood magic feeds off of death. And demonology is a definite no. Name one instance when summoning demons ever worked out in-game.

It can, yes. But it can feed on things other than death. As for the other thing, none thus far, but I'm open to the possibility (cautiously).

Blood magic feeds on people's life force.  And apparantly the more painfully it is drained, the stronger that is.  Blood magic may not be "evil" but it's clearly a very dark grey.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

So, in my Inquisition, I'd incorporate moderate Templars and moderate Mages and, hopefully, I'll get them to play nice or I'll turn the car around.

If I had to assume, the moderate faction is likely the Divine. Templar who feel uncomfortable leaving the Chantry will remain with her, Chantry Loyalists will probably throw themselves at the Templar or the Divine and we've got Cassandra's Seekers aligned with the Divine instead of Lambert.

The Divine (**** her) might also be dead, keep in mind.

I think that's unlikely, given she has Cassandra and Leliana watching over her.

You don't seem to like the current Divine, but keep in mond, she is not her predecessor.  That one (Beatrix III) was a senile old woman terrified of her own shadow, couldn't hold a thought inher head, and was easily manipulated by the templars.  The Current one (Justina V) is younger, mentally fit, and open to the idea of reform.  Heck, why do you think Lambert and his templars split from the Chantry?  The new Divine refused to be another puppet! 

[Xilizhra]

Secretly using blood magic seems to have potential for blowback. People will find out, particularly in Orlais. Not all Bards will be gone and even if it's demonstrate on demons, people will still fear it being used on them. People will not forget that human sacrifices can be used to fuel it, particularly if a rogue Blood Mage does so. And it is inevitable that there will be one eventually. Scholars will also not forget its historical use. Of course, teaching about its dangers and possible abuse could be censored.

Outlawing it, though, just cuts down on learning of it and possibly being more able to defend against it. Restrict, yes; outlaw, no.

Absolutist statements like that leave very little room for reasonable discussion.

What discussion is there to be had with templars?

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

Honest and sincere people can do absolutely horrible things if they think it's right, somehow. It's happened over and over again.

Blood magic feeds on people's life force. And apparantly the more painfully it is drained, the stronger that is. Blood magic may not be "evil" but it's clearly a very dark grey.

It's a tool. Many applications are evil, yes, but it's just a tool.

I think that's unlikely, given she has Cassandra and Leliana watching over her.

There's that talk about the magical explosion in the survey, remember.

You don't seem to like the current Divine, but keep in mond, she is not her predecessor. That one (Beatrix III) was a senile old woman terrified of her own shadow, couldn't hold a thought inher head, and was easily manipulated by the templars. The Current one (Justina V) is younger, mentally fit, and open to the idea of reform. Heck, why do you think Lambert and his templars split from the Chantry? The new Divine refused to be another puppet!

Open to the idea on her own terms, thus far, with her staying in power. Though she didn't declare war on the mages, which is a somewhat encouraging sign... I'll wait, for the time being, but we can't wait forever.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

What discussion is there to be had with templars?

There's another one of those statements...

Honest and sincere people can do absolutely horrible things if they think it's right, somehow. It's happened over and over again.

Yes, like blowing up chantries and framing friends for murder. 

I think that's unlikely, given she has Cassandra and Leliana watching over her.

There's that talk about the magical explosion in the survey, remember.

I take that survey with a large grain of salt.

Open to the idea on her own terms, thus far, with her staying in power. Though she didn't declare war on the mages, which is a somewhat encouraging sign... I'll wait, for the time being, but we can't wait forever.

Justina has done more for the mages' cause that you seem to realize.  Pharamond's research was done on her behest to find an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility.  That's right, she was looking for a less horrifying way to stop mages from becoming abominations

In addition, she's the one who sent Leliana to help Wynne break the mages out of the White Spire, and personally distracted Lambert as they did so. 

Modifié par iakus, 14 juin 2013 - 11:04 .

[Senya]

Honest and sincere people can do absolutely horrible things if they think it's right, somehow. It's happened over and over again.

And you don't think this applies to Blood Magic? What happens if a terrible experiment is performed by honest and sincere Blood Mages?

Now, I am open to studying the human body for better use of the Creation school, but Blood Magic is not necessary as long as there is lyrium or other Mages to link up with and it doesn't come with the drawback of opening the Mage up to demons even more than they are, as Merrill and Hawke implies it does after the second Feynriel quest.

Besides, in the real world, we got along fine without any Magic at all. The potential risks outweigh the potential benefits of Blood Magic, in my view. That was the view of my Mage characters as well.

[Xilizhra]

There's another one of those statements...

I only speak the truth. It's them or us.

Yes, like blowing up chantries and framing friends for murder.

One I disagree with, one was necessary.

Justina has done more for the mages' cause that you seem to realize. Pharamond's research was done on her behest to find an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility. That's right, she was looking for a less horrifying way to stop mages from becoming abominations

In addition, she's the one who sent Leliana to help Wynne break the mages out of the White Spire, and personally distracted Lambert as they did so.

She's a step or two above terrible, yes. Is she anything else? We shall see.

Besides, in the real world, we got along fine without any Magic at all. The potential risks outweigh the potential benefits of Blood Magic, in my view. That was the view of my Mage characters as well.

Quentin was able to transplant a severed head onto another body completely. When have we ever been able to come close to that even with our modern technology? No, she didn't last long after his magic stopped being used, but it's a major step forward; with blood magic's capabilities for resurrection, and if combined properly with creation magic, imagine what the potential might be in the future. Also imagine how much suffering in our own world (billions have died terribly without "getting along fine" in the slightest) could have been alleviated with magic.