1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Sure he doubts her. But is that grounds enough to split the templars into two and doom several collegues? Sure if he had evidence, that'd be something. But you're asking him to directly disobey an order in a combat situation that as far as he knows might very well have been instigated by Orsino and the mages. It's a "kill or allow your men to be killed" situation, and this is a man with responsibility of other people.

Yes, responsibility for the people he's currently murdering. I thought that was the point. The rest... is a reason, but not an excuse.

She said that the lot of them are supporting the templars and the templars are currently in it. In either case, she and mages under her command are going in regardless of whether you will or not. The odds do not look good for them without you, but she is adamant it's that or a last stand that are the alternatives.

It's too politically risky to be known for attacking civilians and they'll probably be basically harmless without the templar military there, so while going in to stop the templars is important, and we may want to hold the village, actually killing the civilians is both immoral and pointless. Which I will say.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, responsibility for the people he's currently murdering. I thought that was the point. The rest... is a reason, but not an excuse.

Responsibility for the people he'd be abandoning too. He has to betray one group regardless of the decision made.

I'm not saying he's a perfect man. He went along with a terrible act, in a commanding capacity even. But one should remember that refusing would have meant betrayal of his men, his own summary execution and his letting a crime of that magnitude go unpunished (yes, you and I know the circle is not to be blamed. But he doesn't).
Is he culpable? Yes. Is he human? Also yes.

Very few people wouldn't go along under those circumstances without definite proof that the order was given on false ground.

And mind you... once he had evidence, he acted on it.

It's too politically risky to be known for attacking civilians and they'll probably be basically harmless without the templar military there, so while going in to stop the templars is important, and we may want to hold the village, actually killing the civilians is both immoral and pointless. Which I will say.

Fair enough. And let me just say that you have my utmost respect for that. I hope I'd do the same... but I'm not sure I'm that brave.

Sadly... I'm fairly certain more than a few people on the mage side would call you a coward or even traitor for that, maybe even seek to have you killed for it.

War makes monsters of most people.

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 juin 2013 - 03:49 .

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He also has serious reason to doubt Meredith's sanity at this point, and even acknowledges that. The ground is far too shaky for matters to be so simple, and Cullen has enough information to reach that conclusion.

Sure he doubts her. But is that grounds enough to split the templars into two and doom several collegues? Sure if he had evidence, that'd be something. But you're asking him to directly disobey an order in a combat situation that as far as he knows might very well have been instigated by Orsino and the mages. It's a "kill or allow your men to be killed" situation, and this is a man with responsibility of other people.

I'll agree that Knight Captain Cullen was put into an invidious position, but I do think (and I've had commissioned military experience) that he had enough to go on to disobey the Knight Commander when she called for the Right of Annulment.  It would have been tricky but consider:

1.  Meredith gave the most extreme order she possibly could in the heat of a political crisis.  What's worse is:
     a.  That order doesn't even target the actual guilty party of the Terrorist Act.
     b.  That order is of very dubious legality to begin with (yes I know that DG said it was legal, but he also said that Meredith would have been called to the carpet and then some for taking such actions when the situation was under control and the Divine could have been asked with just a few days delay).

2.  Meredith has shown a pattern of increasing insanity and her command decisions have been getting more and more paranoid and more and more dubious (as he admits).

3.  He knows that Meredith has already been flouting Chantry law and has done so increasingly treating the Templars as her personal army rather than a branch of the chantry (and yes he says this as well).

So along with the most extreme order given under the most dubious circumstances combined with a pattern that shows a decreasing ability to command, I believe Cullen would have been within his rights not to follow Meredith's orders and order her to step down.  I note that he does this without any evidence later on when Meredith turns on Hawke (because he doesn't know what the Red Lyrium does when he tries to take command).

Of course we all know that Cullen doesn't really regard mages as people so that probably explains it (and it explains why I dislike him).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Rite of Annulment exists for a reason. We can debate if it was necessary or not (as many could argue that the cirlce was indeed corrupted), but Anders blowing the Chantry up was not the real reason to call for it anyway.

Meredith ignored the person responsible for blowing up the Chantry and used the temporary vacuum in the Chain of Command to issue a Right of Annulment that otherwise would never have been approved.  So in effect yes, she is using the Chantry blowing up as an excuse and even says as much.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Never have been approved? Sez who?

Rebellious mage activity was on the rise, blood mages and abominations were on the streets of the city. There WERE connections between the mage underground and the Circle.
Meredith wants to search the tower, Orsino protests. The Chantry is blown up by a mage terrorist.

You keep saying "most extreeme order" and "most dubious circumstances". I disagree.
Circumstaces were enough to justify Annulment - not that I agree with it, but there's enough to make an argument.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Never have been approved? Sez who?

Gaider. He specifically said that Meredith would've been in big trouble with the Divine and the Seekers if she lived at the end of DA 2.

Rebellious mage activity was on the rise, blood mages and abominations were on the streets of the city. There WERE connections between the mage underground and the Circle.
Meredith wants to search the tower, Orsino protests. The Chantry is blown up by a mage terrorist.

The Mage underground had been destroyed in Act 3. Anders makes that very clear. And the Chantry was blown up by one man. Meredith had the guilty right in front of her. If she gave Anders a very public execution, justive would've been served, the guilty punished and within a day or two she could've had word given to the Divine.

You keep saying "most extreeme order" and "most dubious circumstances". I disagree.
Circumstaces were enough to justify Annulment - not that I agree with it, but there's enough to make an argument.

And yet Gaider said that it was unjustified in the eyes of the upper ranks in Val Reyeuax and it was only legal on the most barebone of technicalities. I'll take the head writer's word over yours.

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

I'll agree that Knight Captain Cullen was put into an invidious position, but I do think (and I've had commissioned military experience) that he had enough to go on to disobey the Knight Commander when she called for the Right of Annulment.  It would have been tricky but consider:

1.  Meredith gave the most extreme order she possibly could in the heat of a political crisis.  What's worse is:
     a.  That order doesn't even target the actual guilty party of the Terrorist Act.
     b.  That order is of very dubious legality to begin with (yes I know that DG said it was legal, but he also said that Meredith would have been called to the carpet and then some for taking such actions when the situation was under control and the Divine could have been asked with just a few days delay).

2.  Meredith has shown a pattern of increasing insanity and her command decisions have been getting more and more paranoid and more and more dubious (as he admits).

3.  He knows that Meredith has already been flouting Chantry law and has done so increasingly treating the Templars as her personal army rather than a branch of the chantry (and yes he says this as well).

So along with the most extreme order given under the most dubious circumstances combined with a pattern that shows a decreasing ability to command, I believe Cullen would have been within his rights not to follow Meredith's orders and order her to step down.  I note that he does this without any evidence later on when Meredith turns on Hawke (because he doesn't know what the Red Lyrium does when he tries to take command).

Of course. Though he does not know the action does not punish the guilty party, for him to know that hinges on Meredith telling him as he was not present for Anders' declaration. And somehow I doubt crazed Meredith would tell him the details of the encounter. Other than that I largely agree with the assesment. He would probably have been acquitted in a Chantry court (assuming he lives that long), but it'd be a incredibly difficult decision to make.

Meredith ordering a RoA was extreme and of dubious legality as you say, but you could probably convince someone of it's neccessity seeing the Chantry was clearly "under attack". Meredith was increasingly paranoid and was skirting the edges of the law as well... but that does not mean that this is a time to oppose her since, as mentioned, the Chantry just went up and well... she was seemingly proven right.

But Meredith summary executing Hawke? That's not part of the RoA. There's no mitigating circumstances that would allow that. The RoA may be skirting it, but executing Hawke is directly violating it.

Of course we all know that Cullen doesn't really regard mages as people so that probably explains it (and it explains why I dislike him).

-Polaris

I'm not sure that he believes that as much as  says it in an attempt to convince himself as I mentioned. Repeating dogma in an attempt to find certainty in it. As mentioned, when we actually see him deal with mages he does so reasonably. Even sparing a few apprentices during a RoA because there was no evidence they had done anything wrong.

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 juin 2013 - 06:21 .

[Senya]

Agreed. Meredith's actions, per Word of Gaider, were the actions of someone who was not fit to be Knight-Commander.

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

I'm not sure that he believes that as much as  says it in an attempt to convince himself as I mentioned. Repeating dogma in an attempt to find certainty in it. As mentioned, when we actually see him deal with mages he does so reasonably. Even sparing a few apprentices during a RoA because there was no evidence they had done anything wrong.

Per WoG those mages are NOT spared.  No mage is spared when a Right of Annulment is declared.  The best those mages could hope for is tranquility and only if someone talked on their behalf very quickly.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Never have been approved? Sez who?

Gaider. He specifically said that Meredith would've been in big trouble with the Divine and the Seekers if she lived at the end of DA 2.

For different reasons.

Rebellious mage activity was on the rise, blood mages and abominations were on the streets of the city. There WERE connections between the mage underground and the Circle.
Meredith wants to search the tower, Orsino protests. The Chantry is blown up by a mage terrorist.

The Mage underground had been destroyed in Act 3. Anders makes that very clear. And the Chantry was blown up by one man. Meredith had the guilty right in front of her. If she gave Anders a very public execution, justive would've been served, the guilty punished and within a day or two she could've had word given to the Divine.

Why should anyone believe Anders?
All apostates in Kirkwall destroyed? HAH! As if.

You keep saying "most extreeme order" and "most dubious circumstances". I disagree.
Circumstaces were enough to justify Annulment - not that I agree with it, but there's enough to make an argument.

And yet Gaider said that it was unjustified in the eyes of the upper ranks in Val Reyeuax and it was only legal on the most barebone of technicalities. I'll take the head writer's word over yours.

I think you misunderstood Gaider.
Meredith inacted the RoA immediately, effectively holding 3 positions - Knight Commadner, Viscount and now taking hte role of Reverend Mother -  that was the issue.
That doesn't mean that the RoA would have been denied by the next Reverend Mother.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You keep saying "most extreeme order" and "most dubious circumstances". I disagree.
Circumstaces were enough to justify Annulment - not that I agree with it, but there's enough to make an argument.

And yet Gaider said that it was unjustified in the eyes of the upper ranks in Val Reyeuax and it was only legal on the most barebone of technicalities. I'll take the head writer's word over yours.

I think you misunderstood Gaider.
Meredith inacted the RoA immediately, effectively holding 3 positions - Knight Commadner, Viscount and now taking hte role of Reverend Mother -  that was the issue.
That doesn't mean that the RoA would have been denied by the next Reverend Mother.

I am under the impression that was the exact opposite of the issue: Meredith had the power of the Grand Cleric in the absence of an actual Grand Cleric. The problem was she used it poorly.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 juin 2013 - 07:30 .

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

Per WoG those mages are NOT spared.  No mage is spared when a Right of Annulment is declared.  The best those mages could hope for is tranquility and only if someone talked on their behalf very quickly.

-Polaris

Eh? When was this stated?
Because I see no evidence ingame that they wouldn't be spared or that they would be tranquilized. Cullen even goes so far as to say that he considers it to be the duty of a templar to wait until their guilt is proven. It's a rather major thing to contradict later...

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Never have been approved? Sez who?[/quote]

Gaider. He specifically said that Meredith would've been in big trouble with the Divine and the Seekers if she lived at the end of DA 2. [/quote]

For different reasons.[/quote]

Meredith's reasons for declaring the Rite of Annulment were not enough in the eyes of her superiors, according to Gaider.

Meredith's stated reason for ordering it is that the mob will demand blood. She gives no other reason given at all when she declares it. Seeing as the templar job description also includes protecting mages from the world and not just the world from the mages, Meredith was in gross negligience of that particular duty. No matter the reason you may or may not have, the Rite of Annulment was not justified, and Gaider himself confirmed it. It was legal because of a technicality, but not justified.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]Rebellious mage activity was on the rise, blood mages and abominations were on the streets of the city. There WERE connections between the mage underground and the Circle.
Meredith wants to search the tower, Orsino protests. The Chantry is blown up by a mage terrorist.[/quote]

The Mage underground had been destroyed in Act 3. Anders makes that very clear. And the Chantry was blown up by one man. Meredith had the guilty right in front of her. If she gave Anders a very public execution, justive would've been served, the guilty punished and within a day or two she could've had word given to the Divine. [/quote]

Why should anyone believe Anders?
All apostates in Kirkwall destroyed? HAH! As if.[/quote]

Because he was involved with the mage undergound. Because if you play as a pro-mage, the mage undergound quests available in Act 2 are no longer available and the lady who gave those quests out has disappeared.


[quote][quote]
[quote]You keep saying "most extreeme order" and "most dubious circumstances". I disagree.
Circumstaces were enough to justify Annulment - not that I agree with it, but there's enough to make an argument.[/quote]

And yet Gaider said that it was unjustified in the eyes of the upper ranks in Val Reyeuax and it was only legal on the most barebone of technicalities. I'll take the head writer's word over yours.
[/quote]

I think you misunderstood Gaider.
Meredith inacted the RoA immediately, effectively holding 3 positions - Knight Commadner, Viscount and now taking hte role of Reverend Mother -  that was the issue.
That doesn't mean that the RoA would have been denied by the next Reverend Mother.

[/quote][/quote]

But at that exact moment, Gaider said Meredith had the legal authority, and Gaider said it was not justified, and by making the order and following through on it, Gaider said Meredith was effectively in BIG trouble with the Divine and her superiors.

Take it however you want, Gaider made it clear that the Rite of Annulment, under the circumstances in the game and the reasons Meredith gave, was completely unjustified.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Seeing as Meredith was killed and Cullen was the one who wanted to spare them, I don't see why they couldn't be spared. Meredith was the one who wanted the Right, if Hawke and Cullen are in power they could revoke the decision, especially since the Chantry leadership would not have approved of the Right in the first place.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 juin 2013 - 07:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I think you misunderstood Gaider.
Meredith inacted the RoA immediately, effectively holding 3 positions - Knight Commadner, Viscount and now taking hte role of Reverend Mother -  that was the issue.
That doesn't mean that the RoA would have been denied by the next Reverend Mother.

[/quote][/quote]

But at that exact moment, Gaider said Meredith had the legal authority, and Gaider said it was not justified, and by making the order and following through on it, Gaider said Meredith was effectively in BIG trouble with the Divine and her superiors.

Take it however you want, Gaider made it clear that the Rite of Annulment, under the circumstances in the game and the reasons Meredith gave, was completely unjustified.
[/quote]

Nope.

Sauce or it didn't happen.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Eh? When was this stated?
Because I see no evidence ingame that they wouldn't be spared or that they would be tranquilized. Cullen even goes so far as to say that he considers it to be the duty of a templar to wait until their guilt is proven. It's a rather major thing to contradict later...

I believe it's from a thread where Gaider talked about what happens to hypothetical mages who actually survive a Right of Annulment:

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

[Sir JK]

Much appriciated Lobsel.

So there's nothing stating that these mages specifically weren't spared, just that RoA's generally do not leave many survivors. That's quite the difference.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I think you misunderstood Gaider.
Meredith inacted the RoA immediately, effectively holding 3 positions - Knight Commadner, Viscount and now taking hte role of Reverend Mother -  that was the issue.
That doesn't mean that the RoA would have been denied by the next Reverend Mother.

[/quote][/quote]

But at that exact moment, Gaider said Meredith had the legal authority, and Gaider said it was not justified, and by making the order and following through on it, Gaider said Meredith was effectively in BIG trouble with the Divine and her superiors.

Take it however you want, Gaider made it clear that the Rite of Annulment, under the circumstances in the game and the reasons Meredith gave, was completely unjustified.
[/quote]

Nope.

Sauce or it didn't happen.
[/quote]

That took me long enough that I'm shocked I haven't been ninja'd. Page 12, near the bottom, since this site apparently won't let me link directly to it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 juin 2013 - 08:13 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Much appriciated Lobsel.

So there's nothing stating that these mages specifically weren't spared, just that RoA's generally do not leave many survivors. That's quite the difference.

De nada, mi amiga. 

You know, given Cullen's presence in Kirkwall and his participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment, I wonder how a Circle mage would react to him (via the 'five rings' speculation about the Circle mage background).

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
De nada, mi amiga. 

You know, given Cullen's presence in Kirkwall and his participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment, I wonder how a Circle mage would react to him (via the 'five rings' speculation about the Circle mage background).

That depends enterily on his demeanor I'd say. If he's proud to have participated that warrants an entirely different reaction than if he regrets it and it turn differs from whether he's hopelessly lost and doesn't know what to think anymore.

Cullen certainly have potential, and as Xil said, if he's a companion he's probably the very best opportunity there'll be to get some insight into the templar perspective. That's why I sort of hope he will be a companion, though I fear that he'd occupy the same niche as Cassandra... and out of the two I find the latter the more likely companion.

Regardless, it'll be interesting to talk to him again.

EDIT: Also, the proper suffix when addressing me in spanish would be -o, seeing I'm male .

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 juin 2013 - 08:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
De nada, mi amiga. 

You know, given Cullen's presence in Kirkwall and his participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment, I wonder how a Circle mage would react to him (via the 'five rings' speculation about the Circle mage background).

That depends enterily on his demeanor I'd say. If he's proud to have participated that warrants an entirely different reaction than if he regrets it and it turn differs from whether he's hopelessly lost and doesn't know what to think anymore.

I suppose it does, amigo. Reminds me of Alistair talking about seeing the Harrowing, and how that influenced him to stop wanting to be a templar (in the sense you get insight into the character that you wouldn't have realized from the initial encounter). I also wonder how Cullen will react to being in the company of a mage with authority, if the speculation about 'The Inquisitor' is accurate.

Perhaps the Cullen fans will finally learn his last name.

Sir JK wrote...

Cullen certainly have potential, and as Xil said, if he's a companion he's probably the very best opportunity there'll be to get some insight into the templar perspective. That's why I sort of hope he will be a companion, though I fear that he'd occupy the same niche as Cassandra... and out of the two I find the latter the more likely companion.
Regardless, it'll be interesting to talk to him again.

Cullen was in the leaked survey, so I think it's plausible.

Sir JK wrote...
EDIT: Also, the proper suffix when addressing me in spanish would be -o, seeing I'm male .

Your avatar mislead me. And I thought the Sir was because you were a knight. 

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



I suppose it does, amigo. Reminds me of Alistair talking about seeing the Harrowing, and how that influenced him to stop wanting to be a templar (in the sense you get insight into the character that you wouldn't have realized from the initial encounter). I also wonder how Cullen will react to being in the company of a mage with authority, if the speculation about 'The Inquisitor' is accurate.

Perhaps the Cullen fans will finally learn his last name.

The speculation about the Inquisitor is pretty much confirmed by now, at least as the PC (Flyinn stated this in a new blog). It's not confirmed that the PC will be in a position in authority in the Inquisition, but I doubt that we'll not be in a position of authority.

[Xilizhra]

Responsibility for the people he'd be abandoning too. He has to betray one group regardless of the decision made.

I'm not saying he's a perfect man. He went along with a terrible act, in a commanding capacity even. But one should remember that refusing would have meant betrayal of his men, his own summary execution and his letting a crime of that magnitude go unpunished (yes, you and I know the circle is not to be blamed. But he doesn't).
Is he culpable? Yes. Is he human? Also yes.

Very few people wouldn't go along under those circumstances without definite proof that the order was given on false ground.

And mind you... once he had evidence, he acted on it.

None of that is necessary. Meredith was aiming for the Gallows pretty quickly, and Cullen could make his way to her under a "only fire if fired upon" means (there are probably plenty of demons to kill on the way anyway; in fact, he might have done more good if he'd just ignored the mages altogether and went into the demons, but I digress). Once they're at the Gallows, they confront Orsino and Hawke, then Meredith gives her first ultimatum for how Hawke will "share the Circle's fate." Cullen could actually react to it this time and spark the final battle much sooner, with much lower casualties on both sides.

Fair enough. And let me just say that you have my utmost respect for that. I hope I'd do the same... but I'm not sure I'm that brave.

Sadly... I'm fairly certain more than a few people on the mage side would call you a coward or even traitor for that, maybe even seek to have you killed for it.

War makes monsters of most people.

Then those people are fools and if they die, it's weakness leaving the rebellion. Lashing out at the defenseless only helps the templars' case (though if they're the ones who attack first, the situation changes; in that situation, just don't try to burn the whole village down, fight with precision).