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[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Feynriel.

Though that underscores the point: it's not mages who are a problem, it's mages who haven't learned to control their power.

Fenyriel's results are not typical of mages; being a dreamer, he's an active beacon for demons.

All mages are beacons to demons.  Somniara are simply even  more so, due to their unique abilities.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Feynriel.

Though that underscores the point: it's not mages who are a problem, it's mages who haven't learned to control their power.

Fenyriel's results are not typical of mages; being a dreamer, he's an active beacon for demons.

All mages are beacons to demons.  Somniara are simply even  more so, due to their unique abilities.

No, mages are just marginally more attractive snacks if a demon happens to bump into one. Dreamers are the ones that actually call out to them.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, mages are just marginally more attractive snacks if a demon happens to bump into one. Dreamers are the ones that actually call out to them.

Nope.  The stronger connection to the Fade draws demons to mages.  Thus why they must always remain vigilant.  And why dwarves cannot be possessed at all.

Somniara like Feynriel can actually use the Fade to shape reality, thus why he came under particularly strong assault.  But the implication has always been that all mages go through what he did, just not as intensely.  And why all mages must always be vigilant.

[Tarek]

frankly an abomination is no different from a crazed ruler or some sick torturer, every one has the potential to kill millions of people (in a shot time or long time does not really matter)

if a bad mage can do it more spectacularly then that's not an excuse to say mages are bad, lightning bolt or sword a man can still be killed.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, mages are just marginally more attractive snacks if a demon happens to bump into one. Dreamers are the ones that actually call out to them.

Nope.  The stronger connection to the Fade draws demons to mages.  Thus why they must always remain vigilant.  And why dwarves cannot be possessed at all.

Somniara like Feynriel can actually use the Fade to shape reality, thus why he came under particularly strong assault.  But the implication has always been that all mages go through what he did, just not as intensely.  And why all mages must always be vigilant.

Templars imply it, but mages never do and never show any signs of fear about sleeping or having their dreams molested or whatever. I'm inclined to believe it's myth blown out of proportion. They're not like 40K psykers.

[IanPolaris]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, mages are just marginally more attractive snacks if a demon happens to bump into one. Dreamers are the ones that actually call out to them.

Nope.  The stronger connection to the Fade draws demons to mages.  Thus why they must always remain vigilant.  And why dwarves cannot be possessed at all.

Somniara like Feynriel can actually use the Fade to shape reality, thus why he came under particularly strong assault.  But the implication has always been that all mages go through what he did, just not as intensely.  And why all mages must always be vigilant.

Yes that was the implication we were supposed to draw (and it is the implication Aveline DOES draw), but it's wrong.  Apparently even the Devs have said that what you say in Feynriel's quest (and how he becomes tranquil) is not typical for mages.  I also would point out (as others already have) that mages by and large don't seem to have dreams plagued with demons and many mages to through their entire lives without even the temptation.

This is the DA2 special of taking a completely atypical situation with Demons with super powers that can dominate anyone no matter what, and then allowing you as the player to assume that this is typical for mages.  DA2 does this a lot.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

That was Connor deliberately contacting a demon and asking for help. And not even any apprentices fear sleeping, even the kids Connor's age.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

That was Connor deliberately contacting a demon and asking for help. And not even any apprentices fear sleeping, even the kids Connor's age.

The demon contacted him first.

And exactly when do you get insight to how every single living apprentice feels about the night? I sure as hell can't recall the subject ever even being remotely touched upon. And yet you seem to have all the answers..... Funny how these answers seems to work in your favor, eh?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

That was Connor deliberately contacting a demon and asking for help. And not even any apprentices fear sleeping, even the kids Connor's age.

The demon contacted him first.

And exactly when do you get insight to how every single living apprentice feels about the night? I sure as hell can't recall the subject ever even being remotely touched upon. And yet you seem to have all the answers..... Funny how these answers seems to work in your favor, eh?

Actually, if you talk with Conner about the 'scary lady' you discover that he used Jowan's books to contact her and made a deal with her.  However it is true that she appeared to him before then, but it was the child using some of Jowan's foridden books that made the deal to help his father.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

Not from birth they haven't.  If all mage dreams were like Feynriel's, no mage child would last to the age of two.  It's one more case of taking an extreme situation for an unusual type of mage, but allowing the player to think it's normal and a valid allegory.

-Polaris

[Iakus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes that was the implication we were supposed to draw (and it is the implication Aveline DOES draw), but it's wrong.  Apparently even the Devs have said that what you say in Feynriel's quest (and how he becomes tranquil) is not typical for mages.  I also would point out (as others already have) that mages by and large don't seem to have dreams plagued with demons and many mages to through their entire lives without even the temptation.

This is the DA2 special of taking a completely atypical situation with Demons with super powers that can dominate anyone no matter what, and then allowing you as the player to assume that this is typical for mages.  DA2 does this a lot.

-Polaris

Of course this is an atypical example.  Feynriel was an especially juicy prize and teh demons were particularly agressive.  Normally they seem to be a lot more subtle with their work. Didn't these same developers also say there are various degrees of possession?  Degrees which a mage may not even be aware of the demonic presence influencing them?

mages suddenly exploding into abominations I chalk up to an especially thin veil combined with extreme stress making mages particularly vulnerable.

Re Connor:  How would a child with a semicompetant tutor even know how to summon a demon?

[IanPolaris]

iakus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes that was the implication we were supposed to draw (and it is the implication Aveline DOES draw), but it's wrong.  Apparently even the Devs have said that what you say in Feynriel's quest (and how he becomes tranquil) is not typical for mages.  I also would point out (as others already have) that mages by and large don't seem to have dreams plagued with demons and many mages to through their entire lives without even the temptation.

This is the DA2 special of taking a completely atypical situation with Demons with super powers that can dominate anyone no matter what, and then allowing you as the player to assume that this is typical for mages.  DA2 does this a lot.

-Polaris

Of course this is an atypical example.  Feynriel was an especially juicy prize and teh demons were particularly agressive.  Normally they seem to be a lot more subtle with their work. Didn't these same developers also say there are various degrees of possession?  Degrees which a mage may not even be aware of the demonic presence influencing them?

mages suddenly exploding into abominations I chalk up to an especially thin veil combined with extreme stress making mages particularly vulnerable.

Re Connor:  How would a child with a semicompetant tutor even know how to summon a demon?

Yes but IMHO Bioware tried to deceive us.  The examples were atypical and the information that told us this could be found, but only with great difficulty.  It is clear (at least to me) that Bioware was deliberately using atypical and skewed examples in order to 'convince' the player that these were typical mage experiences when they were not without explicitly saying so.  I think it was part and parcel in DA2 to try to make the mages look worse and more dangerous than the lore really justifies.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

iakus wrote...

Re Connor:  How would a child with a semicompetant tutor even know how to summon a demon?

Even a child can follow the directions in a book.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

That was Connor deliberately contacting a demon and asking for help. And not even any apprentices fear sleeping, even the kids Connor's age.

The demon contacted him first.

And exactly when do you get insight to how every single living apprentice feels about the night? I sure as hell can't recall the subject ever even being remotely touched upon. And yet you seem to have all the answers..... Funny how these answers seems to work in your favor, eh?

Actually, if you talk with Conner about the 'scary lady' you discover that he used Jowan's books to contact her and made a deal with her.  However it is true that she appeared to him before then, but it was the child using some of Jowan's foridden books that made the deal to help his father.

-Polaris

Well, the crux of the matter here, is taht the demon was contacting Conner, even before COnner contacted the demon.

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conner's demon is an example of a demon haunting the dreams of a mage... And the mages don't fear sleeping, because they have been trainning their entire lives to be capable of resisting demons.

Not from birth they haven't.  If all mage dreams were like Feynriel's, no mage child would last to the age of two.  It's one more case of taking an extreme situation for an unusual type of mage, but allowing the player to think it's normal and a valid allegory.

-Polaris

They don't have magical talents from birth either. And of course all mages' dreams aren't like Feynriel's. Feynriel was exceptionally powerful, and as such, demons were even more attracted to his "flame". The multitudes of mediocre mages, who might not even be able to light a simple fire with their magic, might never encounter a demon at all, because their talent is so meagre. Others, like Feynriel, might be plagued by demons for their entire life.
Feynriel is just an example of what one of the worst case scenarios might be. He is an untrained mage, with exceptional power, who would not stand a chance without help. And the consequences of his possession would be catastrophic.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 juin 2013 - 03:35 .

[Iakus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes but IMHO Bioware tried to deceive us.  The examples were atypical and the information that told us this could be found, but only with great difficulty.  It is clear (at least to me) that Bioware was deliberately using atypical and skewed examples in order to 'convince' the player that these were typical mage experiences when they were not without explicitly saying so.  I think it was part and parcel in DA2 to try to make the mages look worse and more dangerous than the lore really justifies.

-Polaris

And I think they were the result of an actionized sequel.  The events are not typically as explosive or even as common as they are portrayed.  But they do happen, and even experienced mages can fall victim to it. 

Modifié par iakus, 17 juin 2013 - 03:43 .

[Sir JK]

Having looked over both the codex entries and the World of Thedas, nothing says that ordinary mages stand out in any way to demons when they sleep. The only mention of being more noticeable to demons if you remain lucid in dreams following lyrium ingestion and that's only if you call attention to yourself (or someone else calls attention to you, such as what happens during a Harrowing).

Otherwise it seems demons would only ever discover mages if they project their target emotion strongly enough for them to be attracted and them then through the dreams discovering it is a mage (which both codex and WoT mentions they can and frequently do, but that is not exclusive to mages). It is implied even, though never outright said, that dreams as a whole are the constructs of spirits and demons exploring mortals.

So I am inclined to agree that mages does not in any way stand out in the fade unless lucid or somniari.
That said, I'd love to have ethereal whispers appearing from thin air if you have a mage character selected in areas with a torn veil. Tempting and taunting you (and maybe even giving a few advise about the area). That would be awesome.

[SamaraDraven]

According to the Dragon Age wiki, all mages attract demons when they use their powers. Dreamers can enter the Fade at will without Lyrium and alter the dreams of others as well as kill them, though all mages can remain aware while they're in the Fade when they sleep. I suppose if a mage has a magical accident while asleep, even a small incident, it could attract a demon. I think this is why mages need training and one thing they learn early on is about control and what Fade demons are. Just my guess about that last point though.

Assuming Connor could read the books, it may have only been a catalyst. He was hearing the demon first. It could have been the demon's plan though. By haunting Connor, and planting ideas in his head, he was driven to seek out the books, which then instructed him in how to make more direct contact. As young as he was and unknowing, he trusted her to help his father. In my mind, Connor makes an example of why mages need training and oversight. Feynriel is an example of how mages can grow without the Circle even under strong assault. The fact that he was so powerful made him a targeted prize. I believe the difference lies in their mothers. One was ashamed and just wanted to hide her son's magic. Given what we know of Isolde, her views and goals make me think she was of the "abstinence only rhetoric". Feynriel's mother, being an elf, doesn't have the same view of magic as Isolde, so I wonder if she would have actively tried to help him learn rather than just learn to hide.

There's an argument to be made for the circles for the parents that failed their children. There's also an argument to be made for the mage children with parents that get it right. Obviously abstinence only isn't going to work. Mages aren't going to just stop using their talents. And mages can be influenced without knowing it. If we're to believe what the codexes say about this and what they say about templars being able to detect dangerous behaviors and signs of possession or influence on a more subversive level, then they do make a difference and provide a necessary duty. Exposing demonic activity, before a mage is taken, providing security while a group of mages save a possessed mage the way the Warden can in DAO, Investigating reports of maleficar activity, proactively looking for illegal activity and investigating to thwart blood mages' attempts to coerce others for personal gain. This is what I think Templars should be. Are they necessary? Yes. I think so. Do they have they right to imprison mages and deny them basic human rights that everyone else has - that they had before they accidentally zapped the dog? No, I don't think they do.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 17 juin 2013 - 04:13 .

[IanPolaris]

The point is that comparing a somniari and his dreams to that of a normal mage makes about as much sense as comparing a high performance fighter jet to a honda. They really are so different that you can't take Feynriel's experience in the fade as normal or typical for a mage, but the game clearly invites you to make that error and I think that's inherently dishonest.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

iakus wrote...

And I think they were the result of an actionized sequel.  The events are not typically as explosive or even as common as they are portrayed.  But they do happen, and even experienced mages can fall victim to it. 

I disagree in this case.  Feynriel was the first Somniari not to go insane (have their mind break) in many generations (perhaps in over a hundred years).  You can not compare someone like that with normal mages.

-Polaris

[SamaraDraven]

IanPolaris wrote...

The point is that comparing a somniari and his dreams to that of a normal mage makes about as much sense as comparing a high performance fighter jet to a honda. They really are so different that you can't take Feynriel's experience in the fade as normal or typical for a mage, but the game clearly invites you to make that error and I think that's inherently dishonest.

-Polaris

My point was that Feynriel was under much greater duress than most normal mages and still resisted for a long time. I think that says something about how a mage's upbringing can make a mage strong enough to resist the threat of demons in their sleep. I don't think the game invites anyone to assume Feynriel's experience is the norm. Marethari makes clear that Feynriel is rare and special. It's said more than once in different ways. The wiki states that all mages - even regular mages - attract the attention of demons when they use their powers. The difference is that regular mages are greatest risk when using their talents. Feynriel is always at risk, regardless. It was quite clear to me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sir JK wrote...
That said, I'd love to have ethereal whispers appearing from thin air if you have a mage character selected in areas with a torn veil. Tempting and taunting you (and maybe even giving a few advise about the area). That would be awesome.

The problem with that is, it would be class exclusive content. WHich means that BioWare would have to create class exclusive content for the other classes aswell.
I believe that BioWare has stated that they are looking into making our specializations play more into the story. Perhaps they will extend that to classes aswell.

[TCBC_Freak]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
That said, I'd love to have ethereal whispers appearing from thin air if you have a mage character selected in areas with a torn veil. Tempting and taunting you (and maybe even giving a few advise about the area). That would be awesome.

The problem with that is, it would be class exclusive content. WHich means that BioWare would have to create class exclusive content for the other classes aswell.
I believe that BioWare has stated that they are looking into making our specializations play more into the story. Perhaps they will extend that to classes aswell.

Why would they Have to create content for the other classes?

[dragonflight288]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
That said, I'd love to have ethereal whispers appearing from thin air if you have a mage character selected in areas with a torn veil. Tempting and taunting you (and maybe even giving a few advise about the area). That would be awesome.

The problem with that is, it would be class exclusive content. WHich means that BioWare would have to create class exclusive content for the other classes aswell.
I believe that BioWare has stated that they are looking into making our specializations play more into the story. Perhaps they will extend that to classes aswell.

Why would they Have to create content for the other classes?

They wouldn't have to, but they might be able to put in a few quests unique to each class. the Mage goes into the Fade and face his own inner-demons....so to speak. The Rogue may get quests like in Origins with Slim Caldry and become the next Dark Wolf. the Warrior might get a few mercenary quests. Each one builds the reputation or personal prowess of the player in general.

It's just a thought that I think is interesting and would love to see.

[Iakus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that is, it would be class exclusive content. WHich means that BioWare would have to create class exclusive content for the other classes aswell.
I believe that BioWare has stated that they are looking into making our specializations play more into the story. Perhaps they will extend that to classes aswell.

I remember the good old days when Bioware made class exclusive quest chains.  And there were more than three classes too.