1081 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

So, something similar to the letters retrieved off of fallen NCR soldiers in New Vegas then?

[Asdrubael Vect]

 Lotion Soronnar you attempt representing Templars as good guys are simply ridiculous:D,...well good luck with this but this is not make sense at all;)

i am not tell all reasons why this will not work, but i say this short thing...

as we know Templar Order is

1)Religion Military Organization with "right to do all what they wanted",...many peoples will simply do not like this faction only because of first 3 words 

2)have connections with Orlais Empie and Orlais Chanrty,... who are not so favored factions for majority of gamers for many reasons

3)their members have Lyrium addiction(they need to use it every 2 weaks to just have powers, and they die without it after 1-2 months) who have effect on their mind and health.....no one like crazy junkies

4)Templars Order who kill or inprison(moreover applies lobotomy) all of those peoples who use magic and deprives them of all rights(to have family, childrens, to be nobles, to have their own lands...and others rights) and still Templars Order use magic and some blood magic......no one like hypocrisy

5)have members only of those ONLY HUMANS(dwarfs simply cant and elves as we can understand would be somethinc like Fenris without erased(by Danarius) memory) groups:

  1)orphans of any kind(with all non-mages childrens of circle mages) who was specially raised by Chantry
  2)very religios poor or some noble peoples or their childrens who was send to Order
  3)poor peoples who need home, food, money for themselfs(remember brothel) or their familys
  4)mostly poor peples who was victims of  demons or persecuted apostages
  5)those small part of peoples(in most cases they are not very religios, not nobles and not ritch) who have mages(beloved brother/sister/son/daughter) in their familys decided to go to the Order to protect them

in most cases the only group of Templars who are normal peoples is only those small part of peoples who decided to go to Order because of their beloved mages family members.......and as you and many peoples clearly can understand those small part of peoples are run from Order, and most of them sided with Mages in this war


this is some of the main reasons why most part of people will never side with Templars


the only peoples who can be better "Templars" is only mages themselfs...or at least dalish or dwarves

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 07 juin 2013 - 07:07 .

[Xilizhra]

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

 Lotion Soronnar you attempt representing Templars as good guys are simply ridiculous:D,...well good luck with this but this is not make sense at all;)
[qutoe]

Tempalrs are jsut guys.

The Order is neither really good or bad.
What they do is both bad and good.
But most of all it is NECESSARY.



[quote]
1)Religion Military Organization with "right to do all what they wanted",...many peoples will simply do not like this faction only because of first 3 words.

2)have connections with Orlais Empie and Orlais Chanrty,... who are not so favored factions for majority of gamers for many reasons

3)their members have Lyrium addiction(they need to use it every 2 weaks to just have powers, and they die without it after 1-2 months) who have effect on their mind and health.....no one like crazy junkies

3)have members only of those ONLY HUMANS(dwarfs simply cant and elves as we can understand would be somethinc like Fenris without erased(by Danarius) memory) groups:

  1)orphans of any kind(with all non-mages childrens of circle mages) who was specially raised by Chantry
  2)very religios poor or some noble peoples or their childrens who was send to Order
  3)poor peoples who need home, food, money for themselfs(remember brothel) or their familys
  4)mostly poor peples who was victims of  demons or persecuted apostages
  5)those small part of peoples(in most cases they are not very religios, not nobles and not ritch) who have mages(beloved brother/sister/son/daughter) in their familys decided to go to the Order to protect them

in most cases the only group of Templars who are normal peoples is only those small part of peoples who decided to go to Order because of their beloved mages family members.......and as you and many peoples clearly can understand those part are run from Order, and most of them sided with Mages in this war
[/quote]

1) Not my problem. People who hate religion or military have to deal with that themselves.

2) The Chantry and templars are continental. There are templars from every country. Again, poeple can hate Orlais and can hate by association. Not my problem.

3) A noble sacrifice they make for the common man.

4) you are incorrect. Especially on the fenris bit


[quote]
this is some of the main reasons why most part of people will never side with Templars[/quote]

That is irrelevant.
An uninformed decision is a poor decision. A skewed perspective is a skewed one.
I want a proper portrayl of both mages and templars. If people still hate templars after that, so be it.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

Over exaggeration much, plus what's immoral about the Templar's profession?

[LolaLei]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

That's what makes it interesting because you kinda feel for them... but really dislike them at the same time. I like the conflicting feeling, lol.

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

Over exaggeration much, plus what's immoral about the Templar's profession?

You imprison people who've committed no crimes, throw them into combat against demons and murder them if they lose, and murder the entire tower if something goes wrong. Also, everyone in said profession is there by choice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

It is all the same principle. You destroy other people's lives, because your safety and well being is so much more important. 

Welcome to life.
Killing is bad. Yet we kill. For food and comfort.
We imprison.
We segragate (unstable or dangerous individuals).
We force things on others. (all the time)
You yourself would kill another man to survive if it came to it.

Perspective and circumstances are key - they change everything. Any moral judgment without them is worthless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

Bollocks.
You don't have a monopoly on morality. People clearly disagree with you on the subject.

Actually I could say there are many contradictory terms everywhere. But it happens, because humans are contradictory and complex.

Bottom point - no one cares about your opinion on what you think is moral and not - but now that you stated it is duly noted. You've made your opinion known. Templars bad. We get it.

But we're here to discuss how to show both sides in a well-rounded fashion. And this thread is mostly for the templar faction. So unless you can add something meaninfull to the discussion kindly refrain from posting here. There are thousands of others threads out there.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 juin 2013 - 07:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
You imprison people who've committed no crimes, throw them into combat against demons and murder them if they lose, and murder the entire tower if something goes wrong. Also, everyone in said profession is there by choice.

With a level of generalizaion deviod of context like that I can make ANYONE sound like Hitler.... or a moron.

[Xilizhra]

Bollocks.
You don't have a monopoly on morality. People clearly disagree with you on the subject.

Of course, but why should I think that they're moral?

But we're here to discuss how to show both sides in a well-rounded fashion. And this thread is mostly for the templar faction. So unless you can add something meaninfull to the discussion kindly refrain from posting here. There are thousands of others threads out there.

Asunder already did show both sides in a well-rounded fashion. Just keep going with that, it'll all be fine.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lambert was painfully and repeatedly wrong about almost everything.

Lambert also grew up under the Imperial Chantry.  And was well aware of how bad things could get under mage rule.  He was a fanatic, yes,  But his fears did have a grain of truth to them.

I see Lambert and Evangeline as examples of "bad" and "good" templars.  Lambert abusing his authority in his zeal to keep mages down.  Evengeline determined to balance protecting people from the abuses of magic, and at the same time protecting mages from the abuses of society (that scene at the inn really stuck with me)

Also remember that for all Lambert's faults, it was the manipulations of Adrien, a mage, that pushed him past the breaking point.  And this one without the urgins of a demon.  For that matter, I saw Rhys and Adrien as "good" and "bad" examples of mages

It's easy to see templars in an unsypathetic light because they're the ones who "have the power"  Mages can play the sympathy card, and not always without cause.  But the sad truth of the matter is mages can, will, and have abused their powers.  All you have to do is look at Tevinter's history.  What happened to Arlethan again?

The Circle system obviously won't work anymore, if it ever did.  the mages of the Imperial Chantry took over and rule Tevinter pretty much just as they did before (a pity, as Archon Hessarian's reforms according to The World of Thedas seemed to be on the right track) While the Circle mages in the rest of Thedas appeared to be terribly oppressed.  Another system needs to be found.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a contradiction in terms; it's sort of like asking for a humane SS officer. Even if you have one, the profession is inherently immoral.

See... this would take out much of what is great and interesting with the setting for me (and I am sure I am not alone in this). I don't find mages fighting for freedom particularily interesting on it's own. What I find enjoying is the conflict between human templars and human mages and how that conflict forces them to do bad things (and when they overcome such actions).

Look... I'm not asking you to like the system they're part of. All I am asking for is templars that are human and not cartoon villains. They might be doting parents. They might fully and firmly believe they're doing it for the mages own good and would never intentionally harm a mage they percieve as innocent. They might like to play cards. They might be poets or great lovers of music. They might care deeply for animals. They might weep at night for what their duty forces them to do.

And if you feel that does not excuse them for what they do as a part of the system. Fine. You're free to think that. As long as both sides in the conflict are as good and flawed as humans are in general, I'm good. And I see letters like this going a long way to achieve that. Far more efficiently than throwing heaps of bad mages at us.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...
You imprison people who've committed no crimes,

I believe that the mages should be given leeway in terms of visitation, having a family, living outside the towers but i understand the logic behind their quarantine as there is no police force that's powerful or large enough in Thedas to monitor mages, or stop abomination outbreaks once the mages mix into the populace.

throw them into combat against demons and murder them if they lose, and murder the entire tower if something goes wrong. Also, everyone in said profession is there by choice.

The combat is needed as a mage who lacks the willpower, and skill to resist an attempted possession is a detriment to everyone around them (mages too), as Feynriel's experience implies that demons actively hunt mages 24/7. Also the problem with the RoA is that it's prone to abuse (Meredith), but i believe it should only be used in extreme situations like with the Ferelden Circle. Seriously aside from killing an army of abominations how do you stop them?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 juin 2013 - 07:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Also remember that for all Lambert's faults, it was the manipulations of Adrien, a mage, that pushed him past the breaking point. And this one without the urgins of a demon. For that matter, I saw Rhys and Adrien as "good" and "bad" examples of mages

Adrian did nothing wrong. All she did was give peace to someone sentenced to hideous torture. It was Lambert who chose to attack everyone the way he did.

Look... I'm not asking you to like the system they're part of. All I am asking for is templars that are human and not cartoon villains. They might be doting parents. They might fully and firmly believe they're doing it for the mages own good and would never intentionally harm a mage they percieve as innocent. They might like to play cards. They might be poets or great lovers of music. They might care deeply for animals. They might weep at night for what their duty forces them to do.

Humans have done far, far worse things than any cartoon character. Every human who's ever existed has been realistic, even if some of them have been so fantastically awful that you'd doubt their veracity if they appeared in fiction (for instance, Amon Goethe, who had to be toned down in Schindler's List). I've never once seen a templar that made me doubt their essential humanity, and I won't if the trend continues as it is now.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Adrian did nothing wrong. All she did was give peace to someone sentenced to hideous torture. It was Lambert who chose to attack everyone the way he did.

You forget that she only did so in an attempt to frame Rhys for murder. Mind you he's supposed be her friend.

[Xilizhra]

I believe that the mages should be given leeway in terms of visitation, having a family, living outside the towers but i understand the logic behind their quarantine as there is no police force that's powerful or large enough in Thedas to monitor mages, or stop abomination outbreaks once the mages mix into the populace.

It's the implementation that's the most heavily immoral thing for the time being.

The combat is needed as a mage who lacks the willpower, and skill to resist an attempted possession is a detriment to everyone around them (mages too), as Feynriel's experience implies that demons actively hunt mages 24/7. Also the problem with the RoA is that it's prone to abuse (Meredith), but i believe it should only be used in extreme situations like with the Ferelden Circle. Seriously aside from killing an army of abominations how do you stop them?

Incorrect, at least it's not necessary for said combat to be lethal. Mage Hawke mentions that she's "braved the Fade before;" Bethany's codex entry mentions a "long-delayed Harrowing." Extrapolating from this, one can assume that Malcolm gave his children Fade-based competence tests that nonetheless didn't put them in fatal danger. Also, Feynriel doesn't even come close to being a typical mage; he's a dreamer, and stands out like a beacon to demons.

You forget that she only did so in an attempt to frame Rhys for murder. Mind you he's supposed be her friend.

What's personal isn't always the same as what's important.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 07:36 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also remember that for all Lambert's faults, it was the manipulations of Adrien, a mage, that pushed him past the breaking point. And this one without the urgins of a demon. For that matter, I saw Rhys and Adrien as "good" and "bad" examples of mages

Adrian did nothing wrong. All she did was give peace to someone sentenced to hideous torture. It was Lambert who chose to attack everyone the way he did.

She framed Rhys for the murder, knowing that protecting him would cause Wynne to oppose Lambert, and trigger the revolt.

Adrien was every bit as culpable as Lambert.   Heck, she gives mages in general a bad name.  

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also remember that for all Lambert's faults, it was the manipulations of Adrien, a mage, that pushed him past the breaking point. And this one without the urgins of a demon. For that matter, I saw Rhys and Adrien as "good" and "bad" examples of mages

Adrian did nothing wrong. All she did was give peace to someone sentenced to hideous torture. It was Lambert who chose to attack everyone the way he did.

She framed Rhys for the murder, knowing that protecting him would cause Wynne to oppose Lambert, and trigger the revolt.

Adrien was every bit as culpable as Lambert.   Heck, she gives mages in general a bad name.  

Lambert was the one who chose to do all of that, wholesale. He didn't have any of Meredith's excuses about being driven insane by outside forces.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I believe that the mages should be given leeway in terms of visitation, having a family, living outside the towers but i understand the logic behind their quarantine as there is no police force that's powerful or large enough in Thedas to monitor mages, or stop abomination outbreaks once the mages mix into the populace.

It's the implementation that's the most heavily immoral thing for the time being.

It's pretty celar that the Circle system doesn't work anymore.  If it ever really did.  But that does not mean that the fears of the templars are unjustified.  Mages that abuse their powers, or are taken by demons, are incredibly dangerous.  Even if they don't mean to be.  How does one protect "muggles" from such dangers?  How does one protect mages from fearful, violent muggles?

[Abraham_uk]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

I'm impressed.

Umm. I'm confused.

Are you being sarcastic or are you being sincere.
I honestly can't tell. It could easily be either.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I believe that the mages should be given leeway in terms of visitation, having a family, living outside the towers but i understand the logic behind their quarantine as there is no police force that's powerful or large enough in Thedas to monitor mages, or stop abomination outbreaks once the mages mix into the populace.

It's the implementation that's the most heavily immoral thing for the time being.

It's pretty celar that the Circle system doesn't work anymore.  If it ever really did.  But that does not mean that the fears of the templars are unjustified.  Mages that abuse their powers, or are taken by demons, are incredibly dangerous.  Even if they don't mean to be.  How does one protect "muggles" from such dangers?  How does one protect mages from fearful, violent muggles?

As of now, that's not the primary issue: the primary issue is stopping the templars from their genocide campaign. Once that's taken care of, and we get a better sense of what the current world is like, then we can try to sort out the mage question.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lambert was the one who chose to do all of that, wholesale. He didn't have any of Meredith's excuses about being driven insane by outside forces.

And Lambert had actionable evidence, even if he was easily maipulated by his fears.

Adrien also didn't have a Demon of Vengeance riding shotgun.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lambert was the one who chose to do all of that, wholesale. He didn't have any of Meredith's excuses about being driven insane by outside forces.

And Lambert had actionable evidence, even if he was easily maipulated by his fears.

Adrien also didn't have a Demon of Vengeance riding shotgun.

Adrian's action wasn't immoral. And Lambert not only leaped to act far too quickly on said "evidence," punishing the "crime" would have been unjust to begin with.

[Abraham_uk]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

My trouble with memes is that I can never tell if someone is being sincere or being sarcastic.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 07 juin 2013 - 07:50 .