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[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I believe that the mages should be given leeway in terms of visitation, having a family, living outside the towers but i understand the logic behind their quarantine as there is no police force that's powerful or large enough in Thedas to monitor mages, or stop abomination outbreaks once the mages mix into the populace.

It's the implementation that's the most heavily immoral thing for the time being.

It's pretty celar that the Circle system doesn't work anymore.  If it ever really did.  But that does not mean that the fears of the templars are unjustified.  Mages that abuse their powers, or are taken by demons, are incredibly dangerous.  Even if they don't mean to be.  How does one protect "muggles" from such dangers?  How does one protect mages from fearful, violent muggles?

As of now, that's not the primary issue: the primary issue is stopping the templars from their genocide campaign. Once that's taken care of, and we get a better sense of what the current world is like, then we can try to sort out the mage question.

I say the two are linked.  The war is over what to do about mages.  They'r eno longer willing to suffer the avbuses of the Circle, and the templars are not about to let thousands of potential maleficar or abominations roam Thedas unchecked (much like Thedas after the First Blight).  For there to be peace, a new system must be constructed.  Otherwise the conflict will end in genocide.  And that would be a tragedy that would only weaken Thedas for when the Qunari come a'knocking.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Adrian's action wasn't immoral. And Lambert not only leaped to act far too quickly on said "evidence," punishing the "crime" would have been unjust to begin with.

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not.  Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets.  It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

Keep in  mind also, that Pharamond's death was also meant to implicate Rhys in all of Cole's killings as well.  As far as Lambert was concerned this was a seriel killer.  Of mages.  

[Xilizhra]

I say the two are linked. The war is over what to do about mages. They'r eno longer willing to suffer the avbuses of the Circle, and the templars are not about to let thousands of potential maleficar or abominations roam Thedas unchecked (much like Thedas after the First Blight). For there to be peace, a new system must be constructed. Otherwise the conflict will end in genocide. And that would be a tragedy that would only weaken Thedas for when the Qunari come a'knocking.

It won't be genocide if the mages win under any circumstances, unless they go completely insane and start purging civilians.

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

Keep in mind also, that Pharamond's death was also meant to implicate Rhys in all of Cole's killings as well. As far as Lambert was concerned this was a seriel killer. Of mages.

And he was an idiot to go into it in any case.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I say the two are linked. The war is over what to do about mages. They'r eno longer willing to suffer the avbuses of the Circle, and the templars are not about to let thousands of potential maleficar or abominations roam Thedas unchecked (much like Thedas after the First Blight). For there to be peace, a new system must be constructed. Otherwise the conflict will end in genocide. And that would be a tragedy that would only weaken Thedas for when the Qunari come a'knocking.

It won't be genocide if the mages win under any circumstances, unless they go completely insane and start purging civilians.

Among more radical elements of the mages, that's a very real possibility.

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I assume you mean Pharamond.  But quite a few mages and templars died in the fighting.  Rhys was beaten bloody and nearly killed.  Evangeline was mortally wounded and only survived because Wynne gave up the Spirit of Faith sustaining her.  

All because neither Adrien nor Lambert were willing to listen to the Divine.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Incorrect, at least it's not necessary for said combat to be lethal. Mage Hawke mentions that she's "braved the Fade before;" Bethany's codex entry mentions a "long-delayed Harrowing." Extrapolating from this, one can assume that Malcolm gave his children Fade-based competence tests that nonetheless didn't put them in fatal danger. Also, Feynriel doesn't even come close to being a typical mage; he's a dreamer, and stands out like a beacon to demons.

Hawke and Bethany were lucky to have a powerful, and skilled do gooder of a mage like Malcolm for a father/teacher, and despite it being draconian the Harrowing is a test of common sense when you factor in Mouse's role. Also even though Feynriel has a bigger bull's eye on his back due to being a dreamer his situation still shows that demons are capable of actively hunting mages.

You forget that she only did so in an attempt to frame Rhys for murder. Mind you he's supposed be her friend.

What's personal isn't always the same as what's important.

Lulz, being framed for murder is pretty important especially when you're facing the prospect of a death sentence.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 juin 2013 - 08:21 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[/quote]
As of now, that's not the primary issue: the primary issue is stopping the templars from their genocide campaign. Once that's taken care of, and we get a better sense of what the current world is like, then we can try to sort out the mage question.
[/quote]

I say the two are linked.  The war is over what to do about mages.  They'r eno longer willing to suffer the avbuses of the Circle, and the templars are not about to let thousands of potential maleficar or abominations roam Thedas unchecked (much like Thedas after the First Blight).  For there to be peace, a new system must be constructed.  Otherwise the conflict will end in genocide.  And that would be a tragedy that would only weaken Thedas for when the Qunari come a'knocking.


[/quote]1)the new system must be without Templars and Chantry or mages will never accept this....the only known is a Tevnter circles
2)kiling mages is a genocide, killing Templars is not....we can simply and easily destroy entire army with just cut all of their Lyrium suplly and wait 1-2 months
3)Thedas would be weaken without Tevinter and mages, separated and very expensive Templars army(15 KC and ~30000-60000 in ALL Thedas) is never was important and effective in fight against non-mages(non-circle aprentices) armys

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 07 juin 2013 - 08:29 .

[Hazegurl]

back on topic: Do you guys think DA3 will show a more balanced view of both sides? Aside from the letters are there any other ideas as to how BW can show us a more Templar perceptive? The only other idea I have is a Templar companion like Cullen. But my fear is that they will make him some broken man who now hates being a Templar or something and he's just waiting for you to guide him on the path of mage love or if not, we get a so called "Good" Templar who is 100% for mage freedom. If we do have Cullen for a companion I hope he stays the way he is in DA2. He seems more balanced. He seems to understand his job as a Templar and although he's had his extreme views he knows not to allow it to go too far.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil.

[Xilizhra]

Among more radical elements of the mages, that's a very real possibility.

Not even Tevinter has tried that, and when the most radical mage is Adrian...

I assume you mean Pharamond. But quite a few mages and templars died in the fighting. Rhys was beaten bloody and nearly killed. Evangeline was mortally wounded and only survived because Wynne gave up the Spirit of Faith sustaining her.

All because neither Adrien nor Lambert were willing to listen to the Divine.

**** the Divine. She failed the mages and sacrificed Pharamond. Also, no, I meant Rhys; Pharamond wanted to die.

Hawke and Bethaney were lucky to have a powerful, and skilled do gooder of a mage like Malcolm for a father/teacher, and despite it being draconian the Harrowing is a test of common sense when you factor in Mouse's role. Also even though Feynriel has a bigger bull's eye on his back due to being a dreamer his situation still shows that demons are capable of actively hunting mages.

You assume that Mouse was actually the demon called in by the templars, and if they called in a pride demon, they're even bigger idiots than I thought. It'd have been sheer luck that they got a very polite pride demon who was willing to back off, instead of one more like the one that got Uldred, who could have easily taken out the whole room full of templars had it taken over the PC.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

I say the two are linked. The war is over what to do about mages. They'r eno longer willing to suffer the avbuses of the Circle, and the templars are not about to let thousands of potential maleficar or abominations roam Thedas unchecked (much like Thedas after the First Blight). For there to be peace, a new system must be constructed. Otherwise the conflict will end in genocide. And that would be a tragedy that would only weaken Thedas for when the Qunari come a'knocking.

It won't be genocide if the mages win under any circumstances, unless they go completely insane and start purging civilians.

Clearly it will, they will set themselves up as ubermensch, it's always been the goal of the more radical elements, while the events at Redcliff and in DA2 showed a clear example of the inherrent threat of uncontrolled mages. The mistrust of the mass population would only be countered by the mages creating a de facto dictatorship and usrping power within the social system.

Inevitably leadin to the same oppressive regime as with Tevinter and the Schism of the population many mundane people siding with the Qunari in the coming invasion.

[Iakus]

Hazegurl wrote...

back on topic: Do you guys think DA3 will show a more balanced view of both sides? Aside from the letters are there any other ideas as to how BW can show us a more Templar perceptive? The only other idea I have is a Templar companion like Cullen. But my fear is that they will make him some broken man who now hates being a Templar or something and he's just waiting for you to guide him on the path of mage love or if not, we get a so called "Good" Templar who is 100% for mage freedom. If we do have Cullen for a companion I hope he stays the way he is in DA2. He seems more balanced. He seems to understand his job as a Templar and although he's had his extreme views he knows not to allow it to go too far.

1) templar (or Seeker) companion.  Preferably one that's not all "Grr...mages bad, argh" like Fenris

2) templar emissary to the player's keep 

3) Show more examples of templars protecting mages rather than hunting them

4) Examples of how the Imperium works

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

back on topic: Do you guys think DA3 will show a more balanced view of both sides? Aside from the letters are there any other ideas as to how BW can show us a more Templar perceptive? The only other idea I have is a Templar companion like Cullen. But my fear is that they will make him some broken man who now hates being a Templar or something and he's just waiting for you to guide him on the path of mage love or if not, we get a so called "Good" Templar who is 100% for mage freedom. If we do have Cullen for a companion I hope he stays the way he is in DA2. He seems more balanced. He seems to understand his job as a Templar and although he's had his extreme views he knows not to allow it to go too far.

1) templar (or Seeker) companion.  Preferably one that's not all "Grr...mages bad, argh" like Fenris

2) templar emissary to the player's keep 

3) Show more examples of templars protecting mages rather than hunting them

4) Examples of how the Imperium works

Allow me to snicker at 4. Oh, such paragons of balance, that you want to make templars look better by demonizing another group of humans. Also, 3 is never going to happen now that the templars' mission is the annihiliation of mages (at least they're finally being honest about it).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 08:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

TK514 wrote...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil.

Today is a momentous day, I saved the quote.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2013 - 08:35 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

You assume that Mouse was actually the demon called in by the templars, and if they called in a pride demon, they're even bigger idiots than I thought. It'd have been sheer luck that they got a very polite pride demon who was willing to back off, instead of one more like the one that got Uldred, who could have easily taken out the whole room full of templars had it taken over the PC.

The difference between the situations is that the Templars were ready to srike the Warden down when they fail, whereas Uldred had an undetermined number of bloodmages help him subdue the mages, and summon a small army of demons to fight the Templars who were ignorant of the situation.

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil.

That's a foolishly contextless statement. It entirely depends on which ends and which means. The one who died wanted to, the one who was framed still came out alive and stronger.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Among more radical elements of the mages, that's a very real possibility.

Not even Tevinter has tried that, and when the most radical mage is Adrian...

Blood magic is quite common in Tevinter.  Where do you suppose all that blood comes from.

As for Adrien, you do remember that scene at the inn, right?

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's a foolishly contextless statement. It entirely depends on which ends and which means. The one who died wanted to, the one who was framed still came out alive and stronger.

"Nothing bad happened so it's perfectly fine!"

No, Xil. That's not how pragmatism works.

And god dammit, thread's been derailed.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2013 - 08:40 .

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Among more radical elements of the mages, that's a very real possibility.

Not even Tevinter has tried that, and when the most radical mage is Adrian...

Blood magic is quite common in Tevinter.  Where do you suppose all that blood comes from.

As for Adrien, you do remember that scene at the inn, right?

Blood heals rather easily. And on Adrian... if I was going to take her word in that situation as a seriously declarative statement, I'd also have to say that Oghren truly believes that the Warden is Hespith, that the dog falsely stealing his pants will truly be his downfall, and any number of other things.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

back on topic: Do you guys think DA3 will show a more balanced view of both sides? Aside from the letters are there any other ideas as to how BW can show us a more Templar perceptive? The only other idea I have is a Templar companion like Cullen. But my fear is that they will make him some broken man who now hates being a Templar or something and he's just waiting for you to guide him on the path of mage love or if not, we get a so called "Good" Templar who is 100% for mage freedom. If we do have Cullen for a companion I hope he stays the way he is in DA2. He seems more balanced. He seems to understand his job as a Templar and although he's had his extreme views he knows not to allow it to go too far.

1) templar (or Seeker) companion.  Preferably one that's not all "Grr...mages bad, argh" like Fenris

2) templar emissary to the player's keep 

3) Show more examples of templars protecting mages rather than hunting them

4) Examples of how the Imperium works

Allow me to snicker at 4. Oh, such paragons of balance, that you want to make templars look better by demonizing another group of humans. Also, 3 is never going to happen now that the templars' mission is the annihiliation of mages (at least they're finally being honest about it).

4) is exactly what the templars are afraid can happen.  Because in fact, it has happened in Tevinter.

3) Evangeline says "hi" and I doubt she's unique.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood heals rather easily. And on Adrian... if I was going to take her word in that situation as a seriously declarative statement, I'd also have to say that Oghren truly believes that the Warden is Hespith, that the dog falsely stealing his pants will truly be his downfall, and any number of other things.

Tevinter has a bustling slave trade.  I wonder why...

As for Adrien, she was willing to call down the fire on an entire inn because of some ruffians.  Evangeline has to disrupt her magic to stop her.

[Asdrubael Vect]

iakus wrote...

1) templar (or Seeker) companion.  Preferably one that's not all "Grr...mages bad, argh" like Fenris

2) templar emissary to the player's keep 

3) Show more examples of templars protecting mages rather than hunting them

4) Examples of how the Imperium works

1)we would have Cassandra and Cullen...i hope that devs allow us to kill them both

2)we would have those in any cases if we would chose Templars......personaly i do not want any Chantry members in my Castle, Dales and Orzammar teach us well about Chantry and Templars emmisary

3)we would never see them from Templars Order in this war and they rather Tranquil mages

4)this is how:devil: 


PS i hope Tevinter Archont if we see him in DA 3 will show us somethink like this when he would fight with Orlais forces:D because this is posible if he would be powerfull half-elf blood mage from Altus Dynasty who drink High Dragon blood

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 07 juin 2013 - 08:57 .

[Ravensword]

Sir JK wrote...

I just don't understand why it's so terribly important that those of us that enjoy the moral conflict and (what we percieve as) difficult questions can't have things like this? Where's the harm in a few human(e) templars?

Some people want a story where one side is unambiguously evil and the other is unambiguously good. In a story where you have two sides that aren't clearly defined in such a way people will judge for themselves which side they prefer and then perceive the other side as the bogeyman.

A lot of people see templars as evil people who join up simply for the opportunity to gratify themselves by bullying one side and spread misery, while some people view mages as evil people who want to carve up the world in their own image and murder or enslave mundanes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil.

That's a foolishly contextless statement. It entirely depends on which ends and which means.

It's funny: that's pretty much my exact argument in defense of the Circles.

[Sontemuka]

Rassler wrote...

Sontemuka wrote...

I read it with Carver's voice, i don know why, but i actually did it haha. Nice letter

Just a reminder here: Carver is not a real templar. He just joins them because there is nothing else to prove himself as an indivudual and not Hawke's brother in kirkwall. To prove this: If Carver is a grey warden, he will show bitter resentment and dissappointment  when he finds out Hawke has sided with Templars in act 3 when he returns. 

Sure, its true. Thats why i say "i don't know why i did it" xD Maybe an older Carver will fit better. Not at all of course.

[Hazegurl]

iakus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

back on topic: Do you guys think DA3 will show a more balanced view of both sides? Aside from the letters are there any other ideas as to how BW can show us a more Templar perceptive? The only other idea I have is a Templar companion like Cullen. But my fear is that they will make him some broken man who now hates being a Templar or something and he's just waiting for you to guide him on the path of mage love or if not, we get a so called "Good" Templar who is 100% for mage freedom. If we do have Cullen for a companion I hope he stays the way he is in DA2. He seems more balanced. He seems to understand his job as a Templar and although he's had his extreme views he knows not to allow it to go too far.

1) templar (or Seeker) companion.  Preferably one that's not all "Grr...mages bad, argh" like Fenris

2) templar emissary to the player's keep 

3) Show more examples of templars protecting mages rather than hunting them

4) Examples of how the Imperium works

Those are some great ideas. i would also like to  know more about the Imperium or at least more Templar views on it. as for Fenris, I admit that when it came to making certain decisions in favor of mages it sucked to get a disapproval from him. Although I found his views to be reasonable and balanced. For example he says not all mages are bad, it's just that weak mages give into temptation like any weak person would give in, the only problem is that the average weak person isn't tempted by demons most of their lives.