1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Zekka]

Did you write this by yourself?

If you did it is really good.

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Welcome to life.
Killing is bad. Yet we kill. For food and comfort.
We imprison.
We segragate (unstable or dangerous individuals).
We force things on others. (all the time)
You yourself would kill another man to survive if it came to it.

Perspective and circumstances are key - they change everything. Any moral judgment without them is worthless.

Then what is the point in any discussion what so ever, what is this topic for? People will always have their different opinions, it's not like you are the only templar supporter. Everybody is right, everybody has their own perspective. Templars are right, mage revolutionists are right, Tevinter is right, Dalish are right, Qunari are right, it's all a matter of perspective. All the little things the protagonist can do are right - whether it be helping the poor and suffering or hurting and killing innocents it's all the same, everything a matter of perspective. 

Pick your side and have fun, stop trying to justify your point, justice is completely and utterly subjective. 

Modifié par KainD, 07 juin 2013 - 10:07 .

[Xilizhra]

4) is exactly what the templars are afraid can happen. Because in fact, it has happened in Tevinter.

3) Evangeline says "hi" and I doubt she's unique.

It happened in Tevinter for reasons that have no reason to be replicated in the current timeline. And Evangeline... well, she left the Order. She's no longer a templar. I'm sure she won't be unique; those are the ones willing to leave the templars to join me.

As for Adrien, she was willing to call down the fire on an entire inn because of some ruffians. Evangeline has to disrupt her magic to stop her.

Self-defense, IIRC.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Humans have done far, far worse things than any cartoon character. Every human who's ever existed has been realistic, even if some of them have been so fantastically awful that you'd doubt their veracity if they appeared in fiction (for instance, Amon Goethe, who had to be toned down in Schindler's List). I've never once seen a templar that made me doubt their essential humanity, and I won't if the trend continues as it is now.

Absolutely. So why would letters such as the one in the OP be a problem?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for Adrien, she was willing to call down the fire on an entire inn because of some ruffians. Evangeline has to disrupt her magic to stop her.

Self-defense, IIRC.

Burning down an inn is self-defense? Bearing in mind that all my knowledge of this book is second-hand, it seems to me frost or simple force called on those ruffians would have worked as well. Or else she could at least have let Evangeline or someone else try to talk the situation down before resorting to arson.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 juin 2013 - 10:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Humans have done far, far worse things than any cartoon character. Every human who's ever existed has been realistic, even if some of them have been so fantastically awful that you'd doubt their veracity if they appeared in fiction (for instance, Amon Goethe, who had to be toned down in Schindler's List). I've never once seen a templar that made me doubt their essential humanity, and I won't if the trend continues as it is now.

Absolutely. So why would letters such as the one in the OP be a problem?

In and of themselves, they're not.

Burning down an inn is self-defense? Bearing in mind that all my
knowledge of this book is second-hand, it seems to me frost or simple
force called on those ruffians would have worked as well. Or else she
could at least have let Evangeline or someone else try to talk the
situation down before resorting to arson.

She wasn't trying to burn the building down, it's just something that might have happened.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 10:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Humans have done far, far worse things than any cartoon character. Every human who's ever existed has been realistic, even if some of them have been so fantastically awful that you'd doubt their veracity if they appeared in fiction (for instance, Amon Goethe, who had to be toned down in Schindler's List). I've never once seen a templar that made me doubt their essential humanity, and I won't if the trend continues as it is now.

Absolutely. So why would letters such as the one in the OP be a problem?

In and of themselves, they're not.

How are they a problem at all?

Burning down an inn is self-defense? Bearing in mind that all my
knowledge of this book is second-hand, it seems to me frost or simple
force called on those ruffians would have worked as well. Or else she
could at least have let Evangeline or someone else try to talk the
situation down before resorting to arson.

She wasn't trying to burn the building down, it's just something that might have happened.

So she wasn't malicious, she was careless. If you have some excuse for using fire as an attack indoors (or even near a building) based on the context, I'll hear you out, but you have to at least have guessed how she's coming off. (Don't bother pointing out that she's a fire specialist. I already read that on TvTropes, I just don't view it as invalidating my central point.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 juin 2013 - 10:21 .

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

In and of themselves, they're not.

Great, I'm glad we agree in that regard.
Let the system and deeds done in the pursuit of upholding damn themselves, and then let the templar simply be people. With hopes, loves, dreams, guilt, hatred, prejudice and so forth. Whether they're morally justified or not, that's for each and everyone to decide for themselves.
The people themselves? They just are.

[Xilizhra]

How are they a problem at all?

Primarily it depends on the fan reaction, but you can't use letters like this to outweigh their actions.

So she wasn't malicious, she was careless. If you have some excuse for using fire as an attack indoors (or even near a building) based on the context, I'll hear you out, but you have to at least have guessed how she's coming off. (Don't bother pointing out that she's a fire specialist. I already read that on TvTropes, I just don't view it as invalidating my central point.)

Well, it's never been a problem in-game. I genuinely don't know if friendly fire is considered canon in-universe or not; in DAO, it would seem to be so, but in DA2, it's only an issue on Nightmare... I genuinely am not sure if the elements called upon with magic will strike everything around them, or only strike what the caster intends for them to.

Great, I'm glad we agree in that regard.
Let the system and deeds
done in the pursuit of upholding damn themselves, and then let the
templar simply be people. With hopes, loves, dreams, guilt, hatred,
prejudice and so forth. Whether they're morally justified or not, that's
for each and everyone to decide for themselves.
The people themselves? They just are.

But we already have that.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[Iakus]

[quote]4) is exactly what the templars are afraid can happen. Because in fact, it has happened in Tevinter.

3) Evangeline says "hi" and I doubt she's unique.[/quote]
It happened in Tevinter for reasons that have no reason to be replicated in the current timeline. And Evangeline... well, she left the Order. She's no longer a templar. I'm sure she won't be unique; those are the ones willing to leave the templars to join me.[/quote]

Several mages in the Dragon Age games spoke openly of recreating the greater Tevinter Imperium, or ruling as the magisters do.  Just like other people, there are mages who dream of using their gifts to rule others.

As for Evangeline, the point is that the sides in this conflict are not so clear-cut. 

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...



[quote]As for Adrien, she was willing to call down the fire on an entire inn because of some ruffians. Evangeline has to disrupt her magic to stop her.[/quote]
Self-defense, IIRC.[/quote]

Three mages and an armed templar against a few poorly armed louts?  yeah, "kill it with fire" is a wee bit extreme there.  All she ended up doing was escalating the situation.

Which just helps demonstrate that Adrien is an arrogant, reckless, and above all ruthless mage who doesn't care who she hurts to advance her  agenda.  This is, sadly, no a unique personality in humanity.  But when such a person has "phenomenal cosmic powers" such a person's capability to cause grievous harm to others increases exponentially.

How does one deal with such a person?  How does one deal with the possibility of such a person?  Before an inn burns down.

Modifié par iakus, 07 juin 2013 - 10:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Three mages and an armed templar against a few poorly armed louts? yeah, "kill it with fire" is a wee bit extreme there. All she ended up doing was escalating the situation.

You don't necessarily have to kill with fire, just scare with fire.

Which just helps demonstrate that Adrien is an arrogant, reckless, and above all ruthless mage who doesn't care who she hurts to advance her agenda. This is, sadly, no a unique personality in humanity. But when such a person has "phenomenal cosmic powers" such a person's capability to cause grievous harm to others increases exponentially.

Oh, she certainly cares a great deal, and her agenda is all about helping others. She just can move beyond caring if she sees it as necessary. She's hotheaded, but still a useful and stalwart comrade.

How does one deal with such a person? How does one deal with the possibility of such a person? Before an inn burns down.

As of now, we need them too much.

Several mages in the Dragon Age games spoke openly of recreating the
greater Tevinter Imperium, or ruling as the magisters do.  Just like
other people, there are mages who dream of using their gifts to rule
others.

Yes, none of whom are involved in the rebellion.

As for Evangeline, the point is that the sides in this conflict are not so clear-cut. 

The sides are very much so. She only went wholly good when she left.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 10:34 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

How are they a problem at all?

Primarily it depends on the fan reaction, but you can't use letters like this to outweigh their actions.

They don't. They merely put them in perspective, and remind everyone that we're not dealing with faceless monsters. (Notwithstanding the bucket helmets that the game points out are designed to make them look that way.)

So she wasn't malicious, she was careless. If you have some excuse for using fire as an attack indoors (or even near a building) based on the context, I'll hear you out, but you have to at least have guessed how she's coming off. (Don't bother pointing out that she's a fire specialist. I already read that on TvTropes, I just don't view it as invalidating my central point.)

Well, it's never been a problem in-game. I genuinely don't know if friendly fire is considered canon in-universe or not; in DAO, it would seem to be so, but in DA2, it's only an issue on Nightmare... I genuinely am not sure if the elements called upon with magic will strike everything around them, or only strike what the caster intends for them to.

In DA2, we have an unreliable narrator to deal with. In DA:O, we don't. Which one is more likely to reflect what the devs meant the universe to look like?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, but why should I think that they're moral?

Why should we think you are?
What makes you think your oppinion matters?

What's personal isn't always the same as what's important.

Neither is what's moral.

You keep harping on how tempalrs are bad, how hte system is inherently bad, and how their perspective doesn't matter.

You have stated your oppinion already.
You have nothing of value to add, other than trying to derail or troll. You again want to turn this into a mage suffering thread.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 juin 2013 - 10:36 .

[Xilizhra]

They don't. They merely put them in perspective, and remind everyone that we're not dealing with faceless monsters. (Notwithstanding the bucket helmets that the game points out are designed to make them look that way.)

In a war, you sort of have to treat them as faceless monsters.

In DA2, we have an unreliable narrator to deal with. In DA:O, we don't. Which one is more likely to reflect what the devs meant the universe to look like?

Noted, but flame jets can be aimed quite precisely, and frost spells could put out fires just as easily.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

As of now, we need them too much.

Why now? What's changed? Why do some extremists get a pass and others are deemed "evil"?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

And templars only harm a few mages. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

Your double standards are obvious.
BAH!
Enough of this.
This thread is NOT about guilt throwing but implementation of perspectives in the game. Keep that in mind.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As of now, we need them too much.

Why now? What's changed? Why do some extremists get a pass and others are deemed "evil"?

The same reason we needed Stalin in WW2.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

You don't necessarily have to kill with fire, just scare with fire.

As I said, all it did was escalate the situation.

Oh, she certainly cares a great deal, and her agenda is all about helping others. She just can move beyond caring if she sees it as necessary. She's hotheaded, but still a useful and stalwart comrade.

...right up until she decides you're more useful as a martyr to her cause.

As of now, we need them too much.

Elaborate, please.

Several mages in the Dragon Age games spoke openly of recreating the
greater Tevinter Imperium, or ruling as the magisters do.  Just like
other people, there are mages who dream of using their gifts to rule
others.

Yes, none of whom are involved in the rebellion.

Are you sure?  There's a lot of mages in Thedas.

As for Evangeline, the point is that the sides in this conflict are not so clear-cut. 

The sides are very much so. She only went wholly good when she left.

No, she proved herself "wholly good" when she disrupted Adrien's spell when she tried picking a fight with the villagers, then drew her sword to protect Adrien from said angry villagers.

That, to me, is what a "real templar" does.  Protects each side from the abuses of the other.

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
This thread is NOT about guilt throwing but implementation of perspectives in the game. 

Soo you.. just.. want to hear a few templars talk about their life and stuff? 
I'm sure that will be in the game. And some templar companion and some templar choices too. 

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As of now, we need them too much.

Why now? What's changed? Why do some extremists get a pass and others are deemed "evil"?

The same reason we needed Stalin in WW2.

This is hardly a ringing endorsement fro "mage freedom" you understand?

[Xilizhra]

...right up until she decides you're more useful as a martyr to her cause.

I doubt that situation would be repeated.

Elaborate, please.

She's too skilled a leader and warrior to throw away for that reason.

Are you sure? There's a lot of mages in Thedas.

Fine. None that we have evidence for.

No, she proved herself "wholly good" when she disrupted Adrien's spell when she tried picking a fight with the villagers, then drew her sword to protect Adrien from said angry villagers.

That, to me, is what a "real templar" does. Protects each side from the abuses of the other.

While keeping the mages unjustly imprisoned at swordpoint on some escort mission. That she behaved with mild competence does not absolve her.

This is hardly a ringing endorsement fro "mage freedom" you understand?

Right now, this isn't about mage freedom, it's about killing templars. I wouldn't necessarily nominate Adrian for nation-building (though her perspective is useful), but she's good at killing templars, and we need to kill templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[Hazegurl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

And templars only harm a few mages. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

Your double standards are obvious.
BAH!
Enough of this.
This thread is NOT about guilt throwing but implementation of perspectives in the game. Keep that in mind.

I think some people are too busy fan raging to stay on topic. they think that just because someone wishes for a more Templar perspective then it means mages will be protrayed as super evils <_<

[Xilizhra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

And templars only harm a few mages. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

Your double standards are obvious.
BAH!
Enough of this.
This thread is NOT about guilt throwing but implementation of perspectives in the game. Keep that in mind.

I think some people are too busy fan raging to stay on topic. they think that just because someone wishes for a more Templar perspective then it means mages will be protrayed as super evils <_<

Well, when the topic creator explicitly wants this, yes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As of now, we need them too much.

Why now? What's changed? Why do some extremists get a pass and others are deemed "evil"?

The same reason we needed Stalin in WW2.

I wonder who the Templars are going to justify for the same reason? If there's an option to off the extremists on both sides, bring the moderates to the table, and set up a Circle where idiots like Adrian are restricted and relatively sane mages like Wynne can go about their business much like Wynne does, guess what I'm doing?

[Iakus]

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
This thread is NOT about guilt throwing but implementation of perspectives in the game. 

Soo you.. just.. want to hear a few templars talk about their life and stuff? 
I'm sure that will be in the game. And some templar companion and some templar choices too. 

I think teh desire is to give us a better perspective of why templars believe as they do.  To make thier stance sem more reasonable, and less...knife-happy.