1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, Dragon Age II vilified mages to the point of stupidity. You had Decimus attacking Hawke and his moiety crew for thinking they were templars. Tahrone looked like a crack addict and sounded like a raving lunatic. Grace attacked Hawke even if the protagonist helped her escape the templars. Your mother is murdered by bad soap opera villain Quentin because she was identical to his deceased wife. You're forced to work for Meredith, even if you oppose the templars. At least one developer admitted that Orsino was written as a nemesis to avoid the mage ending being the good ending. Gaider even admitted that he left like players sided with mages by default, so we have an entire game that vilifies them at almost every turn.

My apostate Hawke didn't even get a mage POV. Hardly anyone noticed my protagonist was a mage, even when he used magic in front of them. The player never has to deal with the pitfalls of being a mage in a society where magic and mages are vilified. Hawke never had to endure the trials and tribulations of being an apostate in a templar controlled city.

As for Asunder, I don't think Lambert was correct.

And on the flip side, many of the templars were portrayed as bloodthirsty rapists, or addled lyrium addicts.  Or, such as in Meredith's case, outright insane (though she does have content that makes her seem more reasonable, you can only access it if you're already backing her)  Cullen is pretty much the only 'reasonable" templar. 

The reason why i tend to back the mages is because i prefer haveing Circle Mage Bethany as a sibling, and I'm not about to let the Circle get annulled with her in it.  Otherwise I'd pretty much toss my hands into the air and go "screw you all, I'm outta here!" 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lambert was the one who chose to do all of that, wholesale. He didn't have any of Meredith's excuses about being driven insane by outside forces.

And Lambert had actionable evidence, even if he was easily maipulated by his fears.

Adrien also didn't have a Demon of Vengeance riding shotgun.

Adrian's action wasn't immoral. And Lambert not only leaped to act far too quickly on said "evidence," punishing the "crime" would have been unjust to begin with.

So it is not immoral to frame another fora  crime YOU commited? What the actual kind of ****ed up moral is it that you follow? Adrian's actions were highly immoral, and she was the cause of all the bad things that happened. Her and Fiona. Lambert was the only one trying to actually prevent the full scale war, which would surely follow a mage rebellion.
And since when in the name of all that is good and holy, as it been unjust to punish the crime of murder?!??... Excuse me, but what the actual **** have you been smoking?... At least your raving usually tend to have a modicum of intellegence behind them, but now you are just being mage-apologetic.... Had Adrian beena  Templar and commited the same crime, we would not have heard the end of your raving and hateful posts about her actions...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This is what cuts to the root of the argument, I think. Espcieally in light of the other thread about Bioware portraying templars and mages as heroes or villains.

Mages got pretty heavily vilified over the course of Dragon Age 2, but so did Templars. A LOT. I mean every mage-supporter will uses the abuses and evils of the templars from that game as reasons why they want to destroy the templar order or support mage freedom. That alone makes me think that it wasn't as one sided as anyone says Bioware tried to make it. I'd go as far as to say that because of the way Meredith and Orisno act, plus given how the final choice is constructed, the templar perspective gets easily  the shorter end of the stick. I sided with the mages most of the time because it just seemed like the obvious choice when it didn't necessarily need to be.

Why are the evils of mages Bioware "cheating" and trying to unfairly portray them as bad, but the evils of the templars aren't? Because the Templars are supposed to be evil or something?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 juin 2013 - 12:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because mage-supporters are notoriously bad at accepting differing points of view... ANd as such, anythign taht makes the amges look bad, is either stupid, or cheating from BioWare's side. While anything that makes the Templars look bad, is irrefutable proof of the mages' innocence, and the evil of the Templar orders. It has been like that for many years, and it wont change. Ever.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil. 

Some of us strongly disagree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars have done to mages for nearly a millennia. When it comes to bringing an end to an institution that some characters (and fans) condemn as slavery, Xil thinks some actions are justified in order to emancipate them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil. 

Some of us strongly disagree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars have done to mages for nearly a millennia. When it comes to bringing an end to an institution that some characters (and fans) condemn as slavery, Xil thinks some actions are justified in order to emancipate them.

What most of the pro-Templar players are saying is that the ends justify the means (assuming you don't lose your moral compass and become either Meredith or Alrik) when trying to protect a majority from a minority that can harm them willingly or not. Some actions are justified when trying to make it more likely abominations form away from the general population and surrounded by people who are better equipped to handle them.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 12:03 .

[Sandy]

 I never knew so many mage supporters were as incapable of listening to reasonable arguments as this thread seems to give the impression of. I don't think it is cool that so many people are jumping and barking at Lotion Soronnar just becuase he is asking for a more balanced look at the mage/templar problem.

Balance is great, it keeps things from being one sided and boring. Grey is often so much more compelling than black and white when it comes to plots and storylines. If you later in the game end up siding with one side or the other, fine, whatever floats your boat, but at least let us explore the options instead of simply deciding you will side someone "just because the other side is wrong". Going "I'm a mage supporter, always will be, I'll always kill the eeeeeevil templars, ALWAYS side with the mages no matter wha!!!. FREEEEDOM!" isn't really a sensible thing to do. The same can of course be said about being a too adamant templar supporter. Choices of who are wrong and who are right should be decided after weighing ALL the facts in any given situation.

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue. 

Anyways, back on the real topic. Ways to make templar perspective more compelling:

- Templar companion. This is why I think Cullen would be perfect as a companion. He would give us the templar view, but not the power-hungry homocidal one, but the "out of nessecity" perspective. Having seen two circles crumble and succumb to demons and bloodmagic he could be the voice behind the "safety over freedom" side of the argument.
- Templar missions. Rescue someone from a bloodmage cult, participate in a trial where mages are being justly dealt with within a court. Help the templars in an investigation.
- Templars as real people, not just templars. Come into contact with a templar who's son is a mage, who's relationship with his son has been strained by the war, but they still want nothing more than to mend fences on both sides.

The fundamental conflict is of course safety for the masses(majority) versus freedom for the few(minority). The theme has successfully been handled in other media. Mutant registration and Superhero registration act in the Marvel comics universe comes to mind. Especially in the Civil War storyline (which has many flaws, no doubt about it) there are several issues where the characters discuss this theme. I'd say take inspiration from there.

That's all I have right now. Now to wait for the "Templars suck and are evil! Mages rule and should be free!" replies that we all love so much...

Modifié par sandellniklas, 08 juin 2013 - 12:20 .

[billy the squid]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bloody hell...

Xilizhra, your every post is a comdemnation of templars and any perspective that doesn't condemn them.
For all you said one could just record you saying "Templars evil! Kill all templars!" and play it on a endless loop. It would be equally interesting and informative.

Please, tell me how does that add anything to the discussion?
I will ask you again to either get with the program or kindly leave. And that goes for everyone.


THE QUESTION:
How to implement a better portrayl of the templar perspective.

There have been a few good broad suggestions. Maybe we could go deeper..with specific quest ideas, letters or similar stuff.

Of course Xili is the epitome of the radicalised, murderous terrorists that constitute the aggressive Mage movement. They don't want peace or integration, they want dominance. As such, the Templars are forced to exterminate them to protect Thedosean society. It's a crumby job, but someone has to do it.

[LobselVith8]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The OP wants all blood magic to be inherently corrupting, all abominations to be ultrapowerful, and the templars to win. 

He believes all blood magic to be inherently corrupting, I think. I believe he's wrong there, but unless you can cite a post saying he wants that, you should use the term "believes."

Many of the people who have voiced their opinions here have interacted with Lotion for well over a year now. I think the reaction would be different if someone like Sir JK had created this thread instead.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

As for abominations being ultrapowerful... yes. According to Gaider, the gameplay was a fluke, and abominations are a lot more dangerous than the gameplay shows. If you believe both of these, the Templars start coming off a lot more reasonably, don't they? 

Not really, no.

[billy the squid]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One could argue whether Pharamod's killing was a "moral" act or not. Framing Rhys, however, was as dirty an act as it gets. It's a betrayal on virtually every level, imo.

And only harmed one person. Not really good, as such, but given the good it might lead to...

I laughed.  The ends justify the means, straight from Xil. 

Some of us strongly disagree with what the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars have done to mages for nearly a millennia. When it comes to bringing an end to an institution that some characters (and fans) condemn as slavery, Xil thinks some actions are justified in order to emancipate them.

So the ends justify the means when it comes to mages breaking loose. But the ends don't justify the means when the Templars are there to safeguard the majority from potential threats. Glad we cleared that up. I love Xil's rank hypocrisy in it's rawest form.

[Xilizhra]

So it is not immoral to frame another fora crime YOU commited? What the actual kind of ****ed up moral is it that you follow? Adrian's actions were highly immoral, and she was the cause of all the bad things that happened. Her and Fiona. Lambert was the only one trying to actually prevent the full scale war, which would surely follow a mage rebellion.
And since when in the name of all that is good and holy, as it been unjust to punish the crime of murder?!??... Excuse me, but what the actual **** have you been smoking?... At least your raving usually tend to have a modicum of intellegence behind them, but now you are just being mage-apologetic.... Had Adrian beena Templar and commited the same crime, we would not have heard the end of your raving and hateful posts about her actions...

Hah, no. Fiona seceded peacefully. The Chantry declined to pursue war. Lambert betrayed it to launch his genocide campaign. And Adrian did only what was necessary.
Also, I don't consider it murder. More like assisted suicide. Pharamond vastly preferred death over being made Tranquil again.

Mages got pretty heavily vilified over the course of Dragon Age 2, but so did Templars. A LOT. I mean every mage-supporter will uses the abuses and evils of the templars from that game as reasons why they want to destroy the templar order or support mage freedom. That alone makes me think that it wasn't as one sided as anyone says Bioware tried to make it. I'd go as far as to say that because of the way Meredith and Orisno act, plus given how the final choice is constructed, the templar perspective gets easily the shorter end of the stick. I sided with the mages most of the time because it just seemed like the obvious choice when it didn't necessarily need to be.

We got a much wider range of templars than mages. We saw almost only mages who caused trouble, vs. a fairly wide perspective on templars (the new recruits, some communications from the somewhat seasoned ones, the various icy lieutenants, and the queen of madness herself).

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

As of now, that's not a directly relevant issue. The war is about the templars and their bloody ambitions, and stopping same. While mage nation-building is a worthwhile endeavor, that's not what the war is about. It's not even a war against the Chantry or its ideals; the Chantry let the mages go because they didn't want a war. It's purely a struggle for survival against an implacable evil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ah yes... I had forgotten that Xil was the proprietor of the "natural" point of view, and the one knowing what is truly the only natural and objectively RIGHT way of thinking... Silly me...

And the Chantry did not let the mages go. What the Divine wanted the mages to do, was not vote for seceding the Circles. She wanted them to find a way to innovate the Circle system, so that it would be a better place for all parties. She even went as far as to hamper the Templars, so that the mages could work out a new system in peace. However the mages chose to take a huge **** all over this trust placed in them, and showed themselves the treacherous fickle bastards that they are, and chose to rebel instead. The Chantry certainly did not let the mages go. But the Dinve did want to improve the lives of the mages.

[LobselVith8]

sandellniklas wrote...

 I never knew so many mage supporters were as incapable of listening to reasonable arguments as this thread seems to give the impression of. I don't think it is cool that so many people are jumping and barking at Lotion Soronnar just becuase he is asking for a more balanced look at the mage/templar problem.

Except the thread is colored by what Lotion has said in the past, which is precisely what some people in this thread have explicitly said.

sandellniklas wrote...

Balance is great, it keeps things from being one sided and boring. Grey is often so much more compelling than black and white when it comes to plots and storylines. If you later in the game end up siding with one side or the other, fine, whatever floats your boat, but at least let us explore the options instead of simply deciding you will side someone "just because the other side is wrong". Going "I'm a mage supporter, always will be, I'll always kill the eeeeeevil templars, ALWAYS side with the mages no matter wha!!!. FREEEEDOM!" isn't really a sensible thing to do. The same can of course be said about being a too adamant templar supporter. Choices of who are wrong and who are right should be decided after weighing ALL the facts in any given situation.

We have enough information at this point to make a choice in the dichotomy between mages and templars. You have people like Sir JK who are on one side of the argument, and people like me on the other. I don't see what's wrong about making a choice in the matter.

sandellniklas wrote...

Fact still remains that mages in Thedas are dangerous. Plain and simple. Potentially or for certain, mages carry within them the power to level cities and destroy populations. Leaving a potential powderkeg like that unchecked and unpoliced just isn't a good idea, especially when the human factor leaves so much room for people to make bad choices. I can almost guarantee you that is how most people in Thedas (and probably many mages as well) feel about the circle issue.

Most people in the Andrastian kingdoms, you mean.

sandellniklas wrote...

Anyways, back on the real topic. Ways to make templar perspective more compelling:

- Templar companion. This is why I think Cullen would be perfect as a companion. He would give us the templar view, but not the power-hungry homocidal one, but the "out of nessecity" perspective. Having seen two circles crumble and succumb to demons and bloodmagic he could be the voice behind the "safety over freedom" side of the argument.

I'm sure Cullen will be a companion, if the leaked survey is any indication.

sandellniklas wrote...

- Templar missions. Rescue someone from a bloodmage cult, participate in a trial where mages are being justly dealt with within a court. Help the templars in an investigation.
- Templars as real people, not just templars. Come into contact with a templar who's son is a mage, who's relationship with his son has been strained by the war, but they still want nothing more than to mend fences on both sides.

As a pro-mage player, I hope Inquisition gives content for both sides of the schism.

sandellniklas wrote...

The fundamental conflict is of course safety for the masses(majority) versus freedom for the few(minority). The theme has successfully been handled in other media. Mutant registration and Superhero registration act in the Marvel comics universe comes to mind. Especially in the Civil War storyline (which has many flaws, no doubt about it) there are several issues where the characters discuss this theme. I'd say take inspiration from there.

I thought the Civil War was poorly handled, personally. It pretty much forgot about it's own inception and vilified one side of the war as a thinly veiled parallel to real life politics.

sandellniklas wrote...

That's all I have right now. Now to wait for the "Templars suck and are evil! Mages rule and should be free!" replies that we all love so much... 

Most people have already made up their minds on the matter.

[Xilizhra]

And the Chantry did not let the mages go. What the Divine wanted the mages to do, was not vote for seceding the Circles. She wanted them to find a way to innovate the Circle system, so that it would be a better place for all parties. She even went as far as to hamper the Templars, so that the mages could work out a new system in peace. However the mages chose to take a huge **** all over this trust placed in them, and showed themselves the treacherous fickle bastards that they are, and chose to rebel instead. The Chantry certainly did not let the mages go. But the Dinve did want to improve the lives of the mages.

Obviously; any cup that had the Chantry remain in power was poisoned. However, the Chantry did decide to not attack the mages for chosing to secede.

[BlazingSpeed]

Filament wrote...

erilben wrote...

Greagoir beats pregnant women. There's no good templars.

*thumbs up*

Lol is that actually true?

[Iakus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

What most of the pro-Templar players are saying is that the ends justify the means (assuming you don't lose your moral compass and become either Meredith or Alrik) when trying to protect a majority from a minority that can harm them willingly or not. Some actions are justified when trying to make it more likely abominations form away from the general population and surrounded by people who are better equipped to handle them.

While I'd hesitate to call myself "pro-templar" I do acknowledge that they are charged with a very difficult task in protecting both the world from mages, and mages from the world.

Magic in Thedas is supposed to have a Blessed With Suck element.  Templars are supposed to a an (admittedly far form perfect) response to that suckage.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

What most of the pro-Templar players are saying is that the ends justify the means (assuming you don't lose your moral compass and become either Meredith or Alrik) when trying to protect a majority from a minority that can harm them willingly or not. Some actions are justified when trying to make it more likely abominations form away from the general population and surrounded by people who are better equipped to handle them.

While I'd hesitate to call myself "pro-templar" I do acknowledge that they are charged with a very difficult task in protecting both the world from mages, and mages from the world.

Magic in Thedas is supposed to have a Blessed With Suck element.  Templars are supposed to a an (admittedly far form perfect) response to that suckage.

Shame how the templars have abandoned even a semblance of that and are now just going on a murder spree, yes?

[TEWR]

All of us fight in the name of what we believe to be just and ethical. If you ask me, nothing else is worth following. -- Motoko Kusanagi, Ghost in the Shell SAC video game

If DAI can live up to this ONE line in terms of portraying both sides, I'll be content. More then content, truth be told.

EDIT: I'm essentially ignoring anything Lotion spews forth. I don't like discussing much of anything with him, so I'm just talking in general.

Lol is that actually true?

Unfortunately. He did in fact beat pregnant women 20 or 30 years prior to DAO. Maybe he calmed down, maybe not. Regardless, it's a canon part of his past (and a sad one at that).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 juin 2013 - 01:09 .

[BlueMagitek]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Filament wrote...

erilben wrote...

Greagoir beats pregnant women. There's no good templars.

*thumbs up*

Lol is that actually true?

It was in a comic that, from my understanding, has had zero elements brought from it into the game world or other Dragon Age media.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Filament wrote...

erilben wrote...

Greagoir beats pregnant women. There's no good templars.

*thumbs up*

Lol is that actually true?

It was in a comic that, from my understanding, has had zero elements brought from it into the game world or other Dragon Age media.

You can't just declare something noncanon just because it hasn't been referenced again.

[BlueMagitek]

Please point out where I claimed that it was non canon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Filament wrote...

erilben wrote...

Greagoir beats pregnant women. There's no good templars.

*thumbs up*

Lol is that actually true?

It's in the comics. A lot of the fans seem to believe that they were poorly written, (I haven't read them and therefore wouldn't know) but they are canon.

My personal explanation for the discrepency in how he acts is that since Greagoir is shown in the comics with black hair, and with grey in the games, he probably mellowed out and became more rational as he aged. Notwithstanding that that does not always happen irl, I can't think what else Bioware might have been shooting for.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 juin 2013 - 01:22 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
Shame how the templars have abandoned even a semblance of that and are now just going on a murder spree, yes?

It is a shame, actually.  A shame on both sides.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Please point out where I claimed that it was non canon.

Nowhere, but if you're not saying such, I question the relevance of the qualifier.

It is a shame, actually.  A shame on both sides.

How so? Organizationally, the mages have done nothing wrong whatsoever, regardless of individual misdeeds. The templars are dancing to Lambert's tune.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 juin 2013 - 01:11 .

[lil yonce]

Rather certain that is not the intent of Lambert. Page 396 397 of Asunder he says, "Whatever you do here, you will not be permitted to run free. We will track you down and put you back in your cages, I swear it."

He was rather upset when he said that line-- just to put his harsh wording in better context. 

So, the templar intent isn't to murder every mage at Andoral's Reach. It is to take them back to the Circles. Should the mages refuse to go back, the templars will use force and a battle will ensue.

EDIT: It is actually page 397. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 juin 2013 - 01:26 .