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"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."


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#426
Ticonderoga117

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Ravensword wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

Getting back on topic:

Seival wrote...

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.


Even if we were to agree with you, what about the billions who were killed without being harvested?  Was their essense preserved?   The little boy you met in the duct in Vancouver, who boarded a shuttle and died?

And what about the millions (billions?) of beings who were transformed into banshees/brutes/ravagers/husks/collectors/mauraders/cannibals.  Is a banshee the same person she was before?   If you became a husk, would you still be Seival?


Youthink those are deadly lasers being fired from the Reapers, but they're actually Ascension lasers.


Or think of it as weaponized love, according to Sevial.

#427
Guest_tickle267_*

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Ravensword wrote...
Youthink those are deadly lasers being fired from the Reapers, but they're actually Ascension lasers.


yep, like the composer in halo 4.

#428
MassivelyEffective0730

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They shoot beams of hot hugs and throbbing emotion at everyone.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 08 juin 2013 - 07:41 .


#429
Ticonderoga117

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tickle267 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
Youthink those are deadly lasers being fired from the Reapers, but they're actually Ascension lasers.


yep, like the composer in halo 4.


Which is funny because that doesn't work as it was supposed to. More like the TRON laser with a side of insanity.

#430
Gewehr_fr

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Asharad Hett wrote...

Getting back on topic:

Seival wrote...

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.


Even if we were to agree with you, what about the billions who were killed without being harvested?  Was their essense preserved?   The little boy you met in the duct in Vancouver, who boarded a shuttle and died?

And what about the millions (billions?) of beings who were transformed into banshees/brutes/ravagers/husks/collectors/mauraders/cannibals.  Is a banshee the same person she was before?   If you became a husk, would you still be Seival?


According to Seival husks would be able to recover their initial mindsets, lets imagine Garrus and Wrex get "improved" into a single brute, they could actually stay alive as some sort of badass conjoined brothers post Synthesis.

A class of 30 children could get "improved" to make a pretty little reaper Hadès canon.

That's really... nefarious beautiful... in a very creepy way... I guess... ?

#431
JonathonPR

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Tyranid cults also prose ascension through liquefaction. They then pump the goo into ships that make more Tyranid. Their first step in planetary conquest is to infect the local populous with Tyranid DNA and control the minds of the people.

I suspect that in a few generations it will be popular opinion that all lesser beings should give up their original forms and ascend to the form of Reapers. And who better to guide them through this process than every planets' friendly neighborhood Reaper. So much more efficient than centuries of war.

#432
Ravensword

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

They shoot beams of hot hugs and throbbing emotion at everyone.


That's all a Reaper is about. The greatest mystery of the galaxy has been finally solved.

#433
Astartes Marine

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JonathonPR wrote...

Tyranid cults also prose ascension through liquefaction. They then pump the goo into ships that make more Tyranid. Their first step in planetary conquest is to infect the local populous with Tyranid DNA and control the minds of the people.

I suspect that in a few generations it will be popular opinion that all lesser beings should give up their original forms and ascend to the form of Reapers. And who better to guide them through this process than every planets' friendly neighborhood Reaper. So much more efficient than centuries of war.

You are referring to the insidious Genestealer Cults...infecting members of populations to spread the Genestealer genetic material and create numerous offspring with the ultimate goal of weakening that world's defenses for the coming Hive Fleets.

Of all the foes in Warhammer I despise the Tyranids the most.  And what disturbs me nearly as much is how similar Seival's efforts and ultimate goal are to those of the Genestealers. <_<

#434
knightnblu

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Seival wrote...

"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."

This idea from the GITS: Innocence... it's genius. And recently I imagined - what if the Catalyst would say something like that?...

...Well, actually it said something like that, but differently. A Reaper is not just a harvester made of harvested lives. It is also a storage of colossal memory systems. Contained essence of life... in other words - preserved life. This means the Catalyst preserved life in each Cycle in two ways: made sure the new life will flourish, and the harvested lives were not wasted.

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.



Let's examine that statement shall we? First, using your logic, the Holocaust never cost a single life because the DNA was stored in smoke and dirt. The deaths arose because the storage systems were inefficient. Do you begin to see the flaws in your argument? You also neglect to examine the case of the Protheans.
 
The Protheans could not be made into Reaper form and were permanently changed by the Reapers down to their DNA and turned into the Collectors. As Mordin pointed out they had no digestive system, they had no culture or art, and the genetic modifications, to the extent that entire chromosomes were omitted, were nothing more than a final insult to the remnants of a lost race.
 
DNA is the essence of an organism. It can hold staggering amounts of data, but that data is used to create you. It holds all of the information on proteins and how they should be formed and recognized, it specifies your phenotype, and ultimately it is your unique blueprint and this is why it is your essence. Everything that you are physically, you owe to your DNA. Personality is different.
 
Let us assume that there is no such thing as a soul for the sake of argument. You assert that there is a "genetic memory." While this has been bandied about in science fiction for decades, there has never been any proof of such a thing aside from the term used to describe the process of homeostasis within the organism. Therefore, that which resides in the mind is destroyed when the mind ceases to function. As such, the mind is similar to computer RAM in that it is volatile. When life (power) recedes, all content (stored data) is lost forever. This is because there is no genetic memory (a hard drive in other words) with which to store it.
 
Now let us introduce the soul into the argument. If a soul exists, then it would not be directly tied to the organic platform. In other words, it would be independent of the physical body and by definition, this includes the DNA. The physical body is destroyed, the soul is released, and what the Reapers claim as a result of their slaughter is only inert ingredients. If memory exists, it exists only in the released soul in the form of energy. Therefore your argument boils down to belief. However, even your belief is not strong.
 
Somehow I doubt that you would volunteer to be used to experiment on the concepts you support. In other words, if a scientist wanted to take you and render you down to your base DNA for eternal preservation, you would object. This is because you know that you will cease to exist despite the fact that your DNA, your blueprint, would still exist. As the map is not the territory, the blueprint is not the structure. This fact alone utterly destroys your argument.
 
If the can contains anything of the civilization it has consumed, it is a library of information only stored in a new being. The essence of the people has been destroyed and no spurious arguments about an imagined genetic memory can change that. We all like to fantasize, membership on the BSN proves that beyond doubt, but I prefer a little reality with my fantasy and so I reject your "Reapers are the good guys" argument because it is based purely on fantasy and belief and even your belief is tepid.

#435
Seival

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Big Bad wrote...

Seival wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

So Seival, let me get this straight. It's okay for the Reapers to commit genocide on us, but it's not okay for us to commit "genocide" on the Reapers?


Harvest can't be called genocide, because the harvested lives were not gone forever. They can be restored and even improved, if you will make corresponding choice.

My ethics can't tolerate "death for the death" judgement. So even if someone committed genocide of my kind... this doesn't give me the right to commit genocide in reply.


What about the many, many species who are killed but not "preserved" in reaper form?  They are in fact gone forever.  They have been systematically eradicated to the point of extinction.   Another word for that would be....genocide. 


Who exactly are you talking about? Protheans? They were converted into Collectors, so they didn't gone forever. Remaining Collectors will be affected by Synthesis just like everyone else, obviously.

Does organic life still exists in MEU? Yes.
And who made sure the life will keep existing? The Catalyst and its tools.

Reapers do not exist to destroy life, they exist to protect it. At the same time, different lesser living beings are very eager to destroy each other. They do it quite regularly and in very barbaric manner, compared to the Catalyst methods.

Harvest is very harsh way to protect life - even the Catalyst understands that. That's why it was always searching for the better solution - Synthesis... You see? Even the Catalyst is trying to find peaceful solution, unlike any Destroyer out there.

So who is really committing genocide in MEU:
 - Quarinas against Geth.
 - Geth against Quarinas.
 - Krogan against Rachni.
 - Krogan against Turians.
 - Salarians and Turians against Krogan.
 - Shepard against Batarians.

...That's all. Galactic Civilization is killing itself quite effectively without any outside help. And you still call the Reapers "evil". We should judge ourselves before we will have the right to judge others.

Modifié par Seival, 08 juin 2013 - 10:06 .


#436
xlegionx

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Seival wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Seival wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

So Seival, let me get this straight. It's okay for the Reapers to commit genocide on us, but it's not okay for us to commit "genocide" on the Reapers?


Harvest can't be called genocide, because the harvested lives were not gone forever. They can be restored and even improved, if you will make corresponding choice.

My ethics can't tolerate "death for the death" judgement. So even if someone committed genocide of my kind... this doesn't give me the right to commit genocide in reply.


What about the many, many species who are killed but not "preserved" in reaper form?  They are in fact gone forever.  They have been systematically eradicated to the point of extinction.   Another word for that would be....genocide. 


Who exactly are you talking about? Protheans? They were converted into Collectors, so they didn't gone forever. Remaining Collectors will be affected by Synthesis just like everyone else, obviously.

Does organic life still exists in MEU? Yes.
And who made sure the life will keep existing? The Catalyst and its tools.

Reapers do not exist to destroy life, they exist to protect it. At the same time, different lesser living beings are very eager to destroy each other. They do it quite regularly and in very barbaric manner, compared to the Catalyst methods.

Harvest is very harsh way to protect life - even the Catalyst understands that. That's why it was always searching for the better solution - Synthesis... You see? Even the Catalyst is trying to find peaceful solution, unlike any Destroyer out there.

So who is really committing genocide in MEU:
 - Quarinas against Geth.
 - Geth against Quarinas.
 - Krogan against Rachni.
 - Krogan against Turians.
 - Salarians and Turians against Krogan.
 - Shepard against Batarians.

...That's all. Galactic Civilization is killing itself quite effectively without any outside help. And you still call the Reapers "evil". We should judge ourselves before we will have the right to judge others.


About the Collectors: talk to Mordin. he has some great insight on the subject.

and the people they are actually talking about are everyone the Reapers are outright killing with there laser beams and the people getting devoured by husks.

The amount of organics being liquified to be turned unto a Reaper is a minority.

#437
Seival

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Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:



(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.

Modifié par Seival, 08 juin 2013 - 10:20 .


#438
IceHawk-181

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So who is really committing genocide in MEU:
1) Quarinas against Geth – Solved by Brokering a Peace. Results in coexistence.
2) Krogan against Rachni – Solved by Saving Rachni Queen; Results in coexistence.
3) Krogan Against Turians – See Palaven
4) Salarians and Turians against Krogan – See Sur'Kesh & Tuchanka
5) Shepard against Batarians – Batarians join Shepard in war against Reapers
 
Gentlemen of straw, please take your seats.

#439
Ticonderoga117

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Seival wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:



(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.


No, we get it, and it's HORRIBLE. It is not the wonder of transhumanism. It's mutaliation and becoming slaves to the Reapers.

#440
AresKeith

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Seival wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:




(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.


People get the concept of Synthesis just fine we just don't like Bioware's version, and this may shock you but some of the people who don't like "Bioware Synthesis" aren't against the concept of it

#441
Seival

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IceHawk-181 wrote...

So who is really committing genocide in MEU:
1) Quarinas against Geth – Solved by Brokering a Peace. Results in coexistence.
2) Krogan against Rachni – Solved by Saving Rachni Queen; Results in coexistence.
3) Krogan Against Turians – See Palaven
4) Salarians and Turians against Krogan – See Sur'Kesh & Tuchanka
5) Shepard against Batarians – Batarians join Shepard in war against Reapers
 
Gentlemen of straw, please take your seats.


Solved? You mean someone came and resurrected all victims of the conflicts? I do not remember such thing.

Peace after a bloodbath... It will not last long while the problem is still in place. New genocides will be committed, just give people the time. Eventually, some of the mentioned races (or all of them) will gone forever. This is what will eventually happen if we will keep the Reapers or Synthesis out of equation.

#442
AresKeith

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Seival wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

So who is really committing genocide in MEU:
1) Quarinas against Geth – Solved by Brokering a Peace. Results in coexistence.
2) Krogan against Rachni – Solved by Saving Rachni Queen; Results in coexistence.
3) Krogan Against Turians – See Palaven
4) Salarians and Turians against Krogan – See Sur'Kesh & Tuchanka
5) Shepard against Batarians – Batarians join Shepard in war against Reapers
 
Gentlemen of straw, please take your seats.


Solved? You mean someone came and resurrected all victims of the conflicts? I do not remember such thing.

Peace after a bloodbath... It will not last long while the problem is still in place. New genocides will be committed, just give people the time. Eventually, some of the mentioned races (or all of them) will gone forever. This is what will eventually happen if we will keep the Reapers or Synthesis out of equation.


Image IPB ahahahaha No

#443
Seival

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AresKeith wrote...

Seival wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:





(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.


People get the concept of Synthesis just fine we just don't like Bioware's version, and this may shock you but some of the people who don't like "Bioware Synthesis" aren't against the concept of it


Then stop complaining about it, and stop trolling the Synthesis fans, please.

#444
IceHawk-181

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Seival, nothing in the canon indicates resurrection of the dead is possible, in any ending.

The major conflicts of the MEU are canonically solved by Shepard in the formation of the Victory Fleet.

If you would like to argue that point, by all means, quote the canon and prove it.

#445
Asharad Hett

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Seival wrote...

Reapers do not exist to destroy life, they exist to protect it.


Asharad Hett wrote...

Even if we were to agree with you, what about the billions who were killed
without being harvested?  Was their essense preserved?   The little boy
you met in the duct in Vancouver, who boarded a shuttle and died?

And what about the millions (billions?) of beings who were transformed into
banshees/brutes/ravagers/husks/collectors/mauraders/cannibals.  Is a
banshee the same person she was before?   If you became a husk, would
you still be Seival?


Modifié par Asharad Hett, 08 juin 2013 - 10:30 .


#446
MassivelyEffective0730

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Trans-humanism itself is an ok concept. The tech singularity might not be far off.

Synthesis does a very bad job of trying to combine the two.

It's explained badly.

It's executed badly.

It's induced for the wrong reasons.

The consequences are abhorrent.

It's automatically the "best" solution because the Reapers think it is.

The Catalyst has a totally alien perspective of life from us, with logic and programming stipulated by a very arrogant and narcissistic race.

The backing science behind it is absolutely laughable.

#447
IceHawk-181

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Reapers in Synthesis "bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

They do not resurrect the past species anymore than I resurrect the 750,000 dead in the Civil War when I am giving that series of lectures...

#448
AresKeith

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Seival wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Seival wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:







(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.


People get the concept of Synthesis just fine we just don't like Bioware's version, and this may shock you but some of the people who don't like "Bioware Synthesis" aren't against the concept of it


Then stop complaining about it,

 
Why?



and stop trolling the Synthesis fans, please.


Then stop trying to use headcanon as fact for a poorly explained, poorly executed, poor science behind it, and sort of unneeded thing
And also stop trying to insult people who combats your claims Image IPB

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 juin 2013 - 10:35 .


#449
Asharad Hett

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AresKeith wrote...

Then stop trying to use headcanon as fact for a poorly explained, poorly executed, poor science behind it, and sort of unneeded thing

There's nothing wrong with him doing that.  I support it.

AresKeith wrote...
And also stop trying to insult people who combats your claims Image IPB


2 way street.

#450
Seival

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I just found this Seival gem from a year ago:




(3) Choosing synthesis is very strange. Final stage of evolution? Nonsence. Mass Releys were destroyed. But sooner or later people will invent them again, and sepatated colonies will start to fight eachother. Again synthetcs, but they will fight half-synthetics who made them... Again Reapers, again Citadel. Again same story with different faces.

When did your opinion change, Mr. Synthesis-is-the-solution-to-all-the-galaxy's-problems?


After I actually started to think about Synthesis meaning, obviously.

Like I said, haters' problem with the Synthesis is only in lack of understanding of Synthesis concept.


No, we get it, and it's HORRIBLE. It is not the wonder of transhumanism. It's mutaliation and becoming slaves to the Reapers.


Your point of view contradicts Synthesis epilogue. Did you even watch EC Synthesis? If you did, then you understood nothing.