926 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultimate Pheer]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

We can't even imagine what exactly DNA may store in reality, and how to access all of this knowledge.

Have you been hiding under a rock for the last decade? 

I wouldn't be surprised- though science does advance fast.

And for those who don't believe DNA CAN store things like memories, we have figured out how to encode them to be readable as binary code, so we could play assassin's creed off of a jump-drive full of DNA

[AresKeith]

Grandiam wrote...

I really think this should be obvious, "the harvest" is the essentially the same way we harvest crops.
We sow seeds and use fertilizer (the relays and the Citadel) wait until the "crops" are ripe enough, then we get in our tractors and harvest our crop for that season.

The Reapers harvest galactic life before organics can create an AI that will eventually overtake them technologically. The AI won't recognize organics as anything other than ants (similar to how we see animals) so if organics interfere or get in the way of this super-AI's interests then it would crush them, and more than likely all organic life, because of the fundamental difference between organic and synthetic life.

Also, if it isn't a super-AI then it's an organic civilization like the Protheans that would enslave any other organic civilization.

But people are stupid and think the Catalyst's solution is wrong so destroying the Reapers is only "logical" and by extension destroying the Reapers is also destroying the entire history of the galaxy, losing whatever may have been unique to the cycles that came before the current one.
The Reapers collect the history of every civilization they harvest and preserve them, until the Catalyst can devise a better solution to the organic/synthetic dilemma.

Now I'm glad I destroyed the Reapers

[KaiserShep]

I'll consult with Javik about this over drinks whilst we celebrate the death of the reapers.

[The Night Mammoth]

Don't care. Either the difference is arbitrary because there's nothing left of the person being uploaded to distinguish them as individuals, so there's nothing of real emphatic worth left, or the person is basically forcibly imprisoned in a Reaper and stripped of their bodies, individuality and any sort of freedom or ability to experience life, which is worse than death in my opinion. 

So it's basically death, or a fate worse than death, meaning the fact that the Reapers might not explicitly kill everyone in a cycle (they still kill hundreds of millions through other means) is completely irrelevant to anything. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 06 juin 2013 - 10:41 .

[Grandiam]

AresKeith wrote...

Grandiam wrote...

I really think this should be obvious, "the harvest" is the essentially the same way we harvest crops.
We sow seeds and use fertilizer (the relays and the Citadel) wait until the "crops" are ripe enough, then we get in our tractors and harvest our crop for that season.

The Reapers harvest galactic life before organics can create an AI that will eventually overtake them technologically. The AI won't recognize organics as anything other than ants (similar to how we see animals) so if organics interfere or get in the way of this super-AI's interests then it would crush them, and more than likely all organic life, because of the fundamental difference between organic and synthetic life.

Also, if it isn't a super-AI then it's an organic civilization like the Protheans that would enslave any other organic civilization.

But people are stupid and think the Catalyst's solution is wrong so destroying the Reapers is only "logical" and by extension destroying the Reapers is also destroying the entire history of the galaxy, losing whatever may have been unique to the cycles that came before the current one.
The Reapers collect the history of every civilization they harvest and preserve them, until the Catalyst can devise a better solution to the organic/synthetic dilemma.

Now I'm glad I destroyed the Reapers

And I'm glad I'm smart enough to understand why destroying the Reapers is wrong.

[Big Bad]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Seival wrote...

"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."

This idea from the GITS: Innocence... it's genius. And recently I imagined - what if the Catalyst would say something like that?...

...Well, actually it said something like that, but differently. A Reaper is not just a harvester made of harvested lives. It is also a storage of colossal memory systems. Contained essence of life... in other words - preserved life. This means the Catalyst preserved life in each Cycle in two ways: made sure the new life will flourish, and the harvested lives were not wasted.

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.

The problem with this is that DNA isn't life.  It's the blueprint of life.  Our DNA dictates our biological makeup, but it can only set tendencies toward certain behaviors.  A being's life is also made up of how it actually behaves and responds to various circumstances, and our DNA doesn't control the circumstances we are exposed to. External circumstances also help stipulate which mutations prove advantageous and which ones prove harmful.  Memory isn't DNA.  Memory is a recollection of how we actually have responded to stimuli, not just how our genetics stipulate we will probably respond to certain stimuli if they happen.  The Reapers only preserve genetic code. They don't preserve the true life of a species or organism because they remove the capacity for those organisms to respond to stimuli and form memories and identities based on those responses.

As an example, a Reaper composed of human genetic code would likely understand humans have the genetic capacity for creating art, but it wouldn't actually create any art or hold memories of creating art.  Reapers are synthetic databases of organic genetic information.  They are in no way actual organic life.     

Not only that, but DNA doesn't actually do ANYTHING unless it is part of a fully functional cell, filled with proteins and organelles to power and regulate the cell's functions.  DNA is important, but it is not the be-all and end-all of life.  And I say that as somebody who is currently studying DNA for my master's degree. 

[AresKeith]

Grandiam wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Grandiam wrote...

I really think this should be obvious, "the harvest" is the essentially the same way we harvest crops.
We sow seeds and use fertilizer (the relays and the Citadel) wait until the "crops" are ripe enough, then we get in our tractors and harvest our crop for that season.

The Reapers harvest galactic life before organics can create an AI that will eventually overtake them technologically. The AI won't recognize organics as anything other than ants (similar to how we see animals) so if organics interfere or get in the way of this super-AI's interests then it would crush them, and more than likely all organic life, because of the fundamental difference between organic and synthetic life.

Also, if it isn't a super-AI then it's an organic civilization like the Protheans that would enslave any other organic civilization.

But people are stupid and think the Catalyst's solution is wrong so destroying the Reapers is only "logical" and by extension destroying the Reapers is also destroying the entire history of the galaxy, losing whatever may have been unique to the cycles that came before the current one.
The Reapers collect the history of every civilization they harvest and preserve them, until the Catalyst can devise a better solution to the organic/synthetic dilemma.

Now I'm glad I destroyed the Reapers

And I'm glad I'm smart enough to understand why destroying the Reapers is wrong.

So I'm stupid because we don't need the Reapers, who are also part of the problem

[Kel Riever]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

The idea is at the heart of movies like Akira, Ghost in the Machine, and The Matrix. Some of the most interesting science fiction has been made because of questions stemming from the idea.

You just named three movies which have massively stupid pseudo science at their center.  Only one of them, Akira, had a theme worth paying attention to, and the theme had a lot less to do with the pseudo science than the conflict between characters.

Anyway, you are right in this regard.  If the story didn't suck, people would have forgiven the pseudo science stupidity.  But since the story is crap, well...

[JonathonPR]

Unless the mind with the experiences and developed behavioral patterns are copied and encoded for each individual the only thing a reaper has is a wide selection of base behavioral variables. Look up feral children. A human is a human because of its ability to learn and communicate but the communication must be learned as well. An infant can tell the difference between gibberish and actual attempts at communication before they are a year old.(speech recognition centers become active and respond.) Also as afar as modern science knows you can not run a human consciousness on a processor not based on biological designs. One of the things I like about ghost in the shell is that that is what a cyber-brain is. A collection of nano machines that replicate the activity of a human brain. Each system has its own method of transmitting and processing data. Imagine if a processor did not run on the binary 1 and 0 of electrical charges but instead worked with dozens of light wavelengths. You could translate the data to binary but it would not run the same.


I don't think the reaper larvae would be made from the DNA of humans. It would be more useful to analyse correlation between behavior and genetic sequences. Then use the data to create an incredibly complex model to predict potential in ability and behavior. Arguably if the Reapers wanted to solve the perceived conflict between organics and synthetics they would not just store the data. They would use control systems and reproduce the species with different genetic variables and social constructs. It would make an appropriate explanation the the Milky Way is used as a production galaxy for new races and genetic material. It worked for the Mi-go in Cthulhutech.

Modifié par JonathonPR, 06 juin 2013 - 10:51 .

[Ravensword]

Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy and outlandish ideas. Where the hell is Ieldra2?

[IceHawk-181]

Killing is wrong; which is the reason my Commander Shepard is still standing on Eden Prime...

[Grandiam]

AresKeith wrote...

Grandiam wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Grandiam wrote...

I really think this should be obvious, "the harvest" is the essentially the same way we harvest crops.
We sow seeds and use fertilizer (the relays and the Citadel) wait until the "crops" are ripe enough, then we get in our tractors and harvest our crop for that season.

The Reapers harvest galactic life before organics can create an AI that will eventually overtake them technologically. The AI won't recognize organics as anything other than ants (similar to how we see animals) so if organics interfere or get in the way of this super-AI's interests then it would crush them, and more than likely all organic life, because of the fundamental difference between organic and synthetic life.

Also, if it isn't a super-AI then it's an organic civilization like the Protheans that would enslave any other organic civilization.

But people are stupid and think the Catalyst's solution is wrong so destroying the Reapers is only "logical" and by extension destroying the Reapers is also destroying the entire history of the galaxy, losing whatever may have been unique to the cycles that came before the current one.
The Reapers collect the history of every civilization they harvest and preserve them, until the Catalyst can devise a better solution to the organic/synthetic dilemma.

Now I'm glad I destroyed the Reapers

And I'm glad I'm smart enough to understand why destroying the Reapers is wrong.

So I'm stupid because we don't need the Reapers, who are also part of the problem

Well you're not stupid I apologize, but why don't we need the Reapers?

I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good but I do understand why the Catalyst gave them their directive, if they were never around then the way things are in the ME universe would be drastically different, with either a Super-AI having destroyed all galactic life or another organic civilization enslaving other emerging life, as I said before.

[Ninja Stan]

Spam and off-topic discussion removed.

[Auld Wulf]

What I take away from this thread: BSNites are bitter, spiteful creatures whose primary credo is to believe that all learning and forms of new ideas/novelty are evil and go against their static, traditionalist natures.

TL;DR: BSNites tend to be wilfully stupid.

It's sad that so few even tried to understand what Seival was saying instead of just lashing out with very tangential attacks.

[AresKeith]

Grandiam wrote...

Well you're not stupid I apologize, but why don't we need the Reapers?

I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good but I do understand why the Catalyst gave them their directive, if they were never around then the way things are in the ME universe would be drastically different, with either a Super-AI having destroyed all galactic life or another organic civilization enslaving other emerging life, as I said before.

Because that claim hasn't even been proven to happen, sure there's been conflict


PS: and Auld Wulf shows up insulting people, not shocked

Modifié par AresKeith, 06 juin 2013 - 11:08 .

[Hurbster]

"I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good" - understatement of the bloody decade there.

Synthesis was a crap idea in Deus Ex:Invisible War and it's no better when Bioware ripped it off. After going through Earth, Palaven, Thessia you seriously telling me that any sane being would want to be space pals ? No way, blow them to hell and stick two fingers up at the Starbrat while you are doing it.

Modifié par Hurbster, 06 juin 2013 - 11:08 .

[Auld Wulf]

Ravensword wrote...

Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] and outlandish [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] ideas.

This is exactly the problem, right here. I added the bold text, obviously, to stress my point.

The first instinct is to hate, rather than to understand. Wilfully ignorant. Wilfully stupid.

[Hurbster]

Whoa, the arrogance in Auld Wulf's post there is regrettably business as usual.

[mumba]

Auld Wulf wrote...

What I take away from this thread: BSNites are bitter, spiteful creatures whose primary credo is to believe that all learning and forms of new ideas/novelty are evil and go against their static, traditionalist natures.

True dat holmes. 

[Ravensword]

I still can't believe there are people who accept the whole "we're saving you by killing you" spiel.

Lemme refresh some of you here w/ this:

[Meme image removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 07 juin 2013 - 01:46 .

[Grandiam]

AresKeith wrote...

Grandiam wrote...

Well you're not stupid I apologize, but why don't we need the Reapers?

I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good but I do understand why the Catalyst gave them their directive, if they were never around then the way things are in the ME universe would be drastically different, with either a Super-AI having destroyed all galactic life or another organic civilization enslaving other emerging life, as I said before.

Because that claim hasn't even been proven to happen, sure there's been conflict


PS: and Auld Wulf shows up insulting people, not shocked

The Geth were on their way to singularity before the Quarians invaded, and the Protheans did enslave the other organics of their cycle. The Geth focused on increasing their intelligence, by building bigger and bigger networks which would've gave them strength to overpower any organic race.

If the Protheans lost the Metacon War then the Catalyst would've been proven right, and if the Reapers didn't begin their harvest after the Protheans won that war, then they would've had no reason not to enslave the emerging life they were observing.

[Auld Wulf]

Let's see if I can explain Seival's post in very simple terms, to see if I can attract the attention of those who seem to be wilfully ignorant. Maybe if I put it simply enough... maybe...

The bolded text is by me.

I did my best, Seival. You know how people are.

Seival wrote...

"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."

This doesn't say that DNA is memory, it just says that life is information. These are two completely abstract concepts. This is one of the firs tthings to be misunderstood. It implies that what we are is defined by our information, it's a common sense statement. We could be easily copied into a virtual environment and be the same, in fact, we might already be in a virtual environment. We are creatures of information, and we thrive on information.

This idea from the GITS: Innocence... it's genius. And recently I imagined - what if the Catalyst would say something like that?...

What Seival is saying here is that if life is information, then the preservation of information is the preservation of life. Therefore, the physical shape of life is irrelevant if life is preserved. Let's assume, for a moment, that once harvested one is injected into a virtual reality where one exists exactly as before. Perhaps this virtual reality is more fair and more kind, perhaps this virtual reality is less focused on pain and suffering. It might even be a kinder existence. If this was known, perhaps some might even choose the harvest.

Essentially, what Seival is saying is that the Catalyst could have pointed out that life inside the Reaper Reality is a kindness, rather than an evil. That whilst they are used to form the personality of the Reaper, they also exist happily within the virtual environment that they are now contained in. And they interact with other civilisations through interlinks withine each Reaper reality.

...Well, actually it said something like that, but differently. A Reaper is not just a harvester made of harvested lives. It is also a storage of colossal memory systems. Contained essence of life... in other words - preserved life.

What Seival is saying here is that due to life being information, all life which is harvested continues to exist within the Reaper, stored and in perfect condition, unending. This information can later be restored to reality when reality is safe enough to contain this information -- but the fact of the matter is is that there isn't much lost by being in a Reaper reality since enough processing power could closely enough simulate the reality we're in, anyway. In a Reaper reality, people continue to be as they are. Information is information.

This means the Catalyst preserved life in each Cycle in two ways: made sure the new life will flourish, and the harvested lives were not wasted.

What Seival is saying here is that the previous civilisations are kept within their own realities where their nature can't drive them to destroy other species. If the Protheans or the Leviathans had continued to exist in the baseline reality, our reality, then they would have continued to destroy, genetically repurpose (like the Rachni), or subjugate existing races. But with the prior "apex" races cordoned off to their own subrealities, tehy can continue to live their lives without being permitted to be a threat to new life.

To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.

One is information, one continues to exist within a Reaper as information. Eventually we will be able to back up our own brains and even transfer our consciounesses across computers and hardware platforms. This is the future. We are defined by information, we are information, as I keep stressing. Whether in a biological body, or as a virtual construct within a Reaper reality, we are as we were -- the information doesn't change, just the platform running it.

The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.

A person, as information, continues to exist within a Reaper. That person is cordoned off to exist within the Reaper reality, but they still exist. Whereas otherwise they might have been destroyed, reprogrammed, or subjugated by a prior cycle. When looking at it this way, it is kinder.

Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.

If a person is information, then a Reaper contains a civilisation of many societies. To kill a Reaper is to destroy the information of a person. In the future, we will be able to make brain backups (as mentioned), and if we die we'll be able to dump those into a clone body. In the future, killing a clone will be a minor crime, but killing the actual data that makes the person will be a major crime, much like murder is today. It would be the murder of information. Today, we are limited with what we can do with our information, but as science progreses, these barriers will break down. There are people within a Reaper as information, deleting that information is tantamount to genocide.