926 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Seival wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So the brutes become two guys trapped forever in a monster costume. Seems legit.

And ex-Reaper-ships will become millions of people contained within one 2km-long indestructible shell. There is nothing negative in that.

The Earth is a giant living being, which contains millions of small living beings.
A human is a living being which contains a lot of bacteria.
You have no idea how many lives you contain right now, KaiserShep.

The Earth is a ball of rock that's not living. There are living things on it, but it itself is not alive.

And yes, there is something wrong about being uploaded into a Reaper. Namely, they died and no longer have a body.

[Ravensword]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Seival wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So the brutes become two guys trapped forever in a monster costume. Seems legit.

And ex-Reaper-ships will become millions of people contained within one 2km-long indestructible shell. There is nothing negative in that.

The Earth is a giant living being, which contains millions of small living beings.
A human is a living being which contains a lot of bacteria.
You have no idea how many lives you contain right now, KaiserShep.

The Earth is a ball of rock that's not living. There are living things on it, but it itself is not alive.

And yes, there is something wrong about being uploaded into a Reaper. Namely, they died and no longer have a body.

Seival misunderstanding the Gaia hypothesis.

[Lady Abstract]

Lok another one of these reaper justification threads I've seen and created plenty of these...all the different perspectives yes yes I like

[Skvindt]

Personally, I'm looking forward to hanar reapers.

"This one knows you feel this..."

IceHawk-181 wrote...

In Mass Effect 3 Legion describes contact with the Reapers as the existence of an incomprehensible single thought that was capable of completely overwhelming the Geth that were interacting with it for a relatively short period of time.
 
What such an influence would do to the conjoined (likely no longer individual) minds after minimally 50,000 years (1 billion years at the oldest) is anyone's guess.
 
Speaking of Harbinger.
It clearly has a distinct personality from other Reapers considering its obsession with Shepard. Not even Sovereign had that issue. If Harbinger is representative of what happens to the "conjoined minds" of a species, they are most certainly not individual any longer.
 
 

I found the conversation.  It could be that they are still individuals and a single thought is them coming to some form of a consensus.  Or not, and that they truly have 'merged' and become something very different and difficult to comprehend.  

It reminds me of the Cerberus News Network feed they did for Mass Effect 2.  There was an interesting series of articles regarding a mysterious 'Ghost Ship' that was discovered.  It essentially housed the collective consciousness of an alien race within quantum computers.  They can be found here.  

Now if this is similar to what Reapers are, it does give me a moment of pause regarding the Reapers fate.  Because if after all this time their minds have not been warped (despite being controlled by the Catalyst for millions of years), they are living in this virtual world of sorts, I'm not sure sure I would want to destroy them.  I don't think many people would want to continue life as a husk brute.  But if they are in this virtual world which is almost indistinguishable from real life, or if they have transcended to a state which they actually enjoy... I dunno.

[IceHawk-181]

The problem I see is Reaper personalities; what are they?

They clearly dominate the conjoined minds of extant Reapers...so how does Synthesis reconcile the Reaper personality with the conjoined minds? Or is it true, after everything, that all that is really retained is the varied knowledge of the minds and not the actual personalities themselves?

[Ticonderoga117]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

The problem I see is Reaper personalities; what are they?

They clearly dominate the conjoined minds of extant Reapers...so how does Synthesis reconcile the Reaper personality with the conjoined minds? Or is it true, after everything, that all that is really retained is the varied knowledge of the minds and not the actual personalities themselves?

I would say that after so much trauma, that there would not be much left of a personality to recover from a mind uploaded into a Reaper. The minds, I would think, would simply be there to offer a repository of data, and that's all.

edit: Spelling.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 09 juin 2013 - 02:37 .

[Gewehr_fr]

Seival you have a vision of organic life that is really really scary. 

Pretty much the same as the cold calculating A.I. that is the catalyst.

[IceHawk-181]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

The problem I see is Reaper personalities; what are they?

They clearly dominate the conjoined minds of extant Reapers...so how does Synthesis reconcile the Reaper personality with the conjoined minds? Or is it true, after everything, that all that is really retained is the varied knowledge of the minds and not the actual personalities themselves?

I would say that after so much trauma, that there would not be much left of a personality to recover from a mind uploaded into a Reaper. The minds, I would think, would simply be there to offer a repository of data, and that's all.

edit: Spelling.

You see, this is the same conclusion that I come to.
 
Organic minds subjected to a minimum of 50,000 years of complete subjugation and indoctrination cannot simply be "rebooted" to factory specs like a Synthetic system. They would carry emotional and psychological scarring to a degree unheard of in all history.
 
And if they lack the emotional response due to Reaper upload they are no longer truly themselves in the first place.
 
 
 

[Ticonderoga117]

IceHawk-181 wrote...
You see, this is the same conclusion that I come to.
 
Organic minds subjected to a minimum of 50,000 years of complete subjugation and indoctrination cannot simply be "rebooted" to factory specs like a Synthetic system. They would carry emotional and psychological scarring to a degree unheard of in all history.
 
And if they lack the emotional response due to Reaper upload they are no longer truly themselves in the first place.
 

I mean, simply look at the effects of indoctrination. The mind decays to the point where they become vegetables at best, extremely dangerous at worst.

There is no recovery from this state.

[Asharad Hett]

Too bad Jenkins will never get to experience Synthesis, due to those murdering bastards known as the Reapers.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

The Reapers are monsters. I understand that they're complicated and have a story, but they're no different from an army of mad dogs sent to wipe out all of humanity. The best strategy, in my opinion, is to kill them.

[mass perfection]

Seival wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Going by your logic,Control is the equivalent to enslaving thousands of races.

Which you can release by applying Synthesis later, after Control... Which will also help you to avoid unneeded deaths on the Citadel in the process of Synthesizing.

Because your headcanon is just so perfect.In my headcanon,Shepard controls the Reapers and continues the cycle just for the lulz.Almost the same as Synthesis and/or your headcanon if you think about it.

[Reorte]

The idea of any minds at all in there is rather ludicrous. Melting someone down into goo will destroy the mind. OK then, for the sake of argument let's pretend they've some way of scanning it before doing that, despite there being no more evidence of that than of the gooification being a careful destructive measuring technique. If all those minds are present in the Reaper then the Reaper is almost certainly not going to behave like a Reaper. The odds are that the vast majority of them will be very hostile to the Reapers. So to get around that you've got to crush them so utterly that there's nothing left of the original mind anyway. Permanent change makes much more sense than the Reaper continually indoctrinating itself (having to continually force something to do what you want is far too risky).

[Seival]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Seival wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Wait a sec...

Is the whole point of this exercise to determine a single, morally "correct" ending from Destroy, Control, and Synthesis? 

There are no universal ethical rules. So, determining a single, morally "correct" ending makes no sense.

OK, but why is it "not genocide" when the Reapers end sentient organic life, while Destroy "is genocide" against Reapers?

Bearing in mind that whether or not we take Cellular Memory into account, the original "Life," in scientific terms, is still "dead" when you collect its DNA. Unless you consider a blood bank to be full of living, breathing people in test tubes, which I assume that you don't. Similarly, I assume you would not interpret a "Clone" as the original life-form, continued, since they can both, technically, live at the same time, precluding the idea that they can both be defined as the same person.

I ask as someone who recognizes the validity of Cellular Memory, and who chose Synthesis repeatedly as the ending. I consider Destroy to be genocide against Geth, and Reapers.

However, I consider that "Them or Us" is a valid reason for Genocide, and it's not like the Reapers themselves gave anyone a choice. I recently switched to Destroy for perfectly valid reasons.

So if the purpose of this discussion is not to convince people that "Destroy" is wrong, what is the point?

And to repeat my earlier question that you still haven't answered, "External to what?"

Well, a bunch of Destroyers are here arguing with me (as always) only because they see any positive thoughts about Synthesis, Catalyst, and the Reapers as personal insult. That triggers their usual defence reaction, so they are starting to act like someone here is trying to convince them in something. That "bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-mode" usually comes with a lot of off-topic and spamming, which you already have seen on previous pages of this thread. So, just do not pay attention on those Destroyers.



I created this thread to share some of my thoughts. I do believe that harvested people are still alive. I base my belief on Synthesis outcome, recent lore from ME3 multiplayer (Awakened Collectors), and some interesting ideas from other stories.

I believe that harvest is not genocide, because harvested life still can be released. Harvest is more like imprisonment. And each galactic civilization gave the Catalyst strong reasons to imprison them, I want to note. But killing the Reapers is genocide, because killed Reapers can't be awakened anymore - those lives are gone forever.

Those are interesting thoughts, do you agree? Believe them or not - is your decision.
Threads are not always created for arguing, but some people still want to argue no matter what

Modifié par Seival, 09 juin 2013 - 03:27 .

[Dextro Milk]

Seival wrote...

Wait, so what do you do in-game when you have to kill a reaper?

Do you start to get emotional when you kill them? 

[xlegionx]

 @Seival:
Please stop ignoring the fact the only a minority of each cycle is harvested. Most are just outright killed by the Reapers or their husk armies. That is a greater genocide than killing a synthetic being made up of organic material ever could be.

Also, the Awakened collector is a bunch of crap. See conversation with Mordin: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par xlegionx, 09 juin 2013 - 03:30 .

[Seival]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

The Reapers are monsters. I understand that they're complicated and have a story, but they're no different from an army of mad dogs sent to wipe out all of humanity. The best strategy, in my opinion, is to kill them.

A random Quarian says:
"The Geth are monsters. I understand that they're complicated and have a story, but they're no different from an army of mad dogs sent to wipe out all of Quarians. The best strategy, in my opinion, is to kill them."

A random Krogan says:
"The Turians are monsters. I understand that they're complicated and have a story, but they're no different from an army of mad dogs sent to wipe out all of Krogan. The best strategy, in my opinion, is to kill them."

A random Salarian says:
"The Krogan are monsters. I understand that they're complicated and have a story, but they're no different from an army of mad dogs sent to wipe out all of Salarians and Turians. The best strategy, in my opinion, is to kill them."

...And so on. Interesting similarity to your reply isn't it?


Now... Did you stop Quarinas and the Geth from killing each other? Did you cure the Genophage? Did you save Rachni? If you did, then I'm afraid that you applied the double standards to you judgement of the Reapers.

[archangel1996]

Troll or madman? i fear i will never know....

[IceHawk-181]

Seival, you created this thread to create conversation and debate centered on your particular point of view. If you find it difficult to defend your position through the employment of canon and have to resort to ad hominem attacks on your opponents, well, you seem intelligent enough to see a logical concession when you commit one, willfully or no.

A point about canon; in most forms of literature that I have been involved in (Star Wars, Star Trek, Dragon Age, etc) Multiplayer and Game Mechanics are rejected as non-canonical exigencies of a Story being told through the medium of a video game.

According to the in-universe commentary of Dr. Mordin Solis, our avowed expert, there is absolutely nothing left of the Protheans within the Collectors. They are a dead species. Javik certainly echoes that conclusion in ME3.

Furthermore, Legion our only other character with direct Reaper interaction likewise explained that the minds within the Reapers are "conjoined" and dominated within a Reaper.

The Catalyst specifically stated that the Reapers are merely the synthetic representation of its creators and that Reapers "preserve life" by storing the collective knowledge of its culture, not by retaining individual minds.

The Synthesis EC-Epilogue does not actually represent any of the items you claim that it does.

You may certainly head-canon your own ending based on what you saw, that is fine, but when you come into the forums and claim your personal interpretation is a, if not the only, valid canonical interpretation of said endings, you are going to be opposed.

Modifié par IceHawk-181, 09 juin 2013 - 03:54 .

[mass perfection]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Seival wrote...

Wait, so what do you do in-game when you have to kill a reaper?

Do you start to get emotional when you kill them? 

[Dextro Milk]

Seival wrote...

Now... Did you stop Quarinas and the Geth from killing each other? Did you cure the Genophage? Did you save Rachni? If you did, then I'm afraid that you applied the double standards to you judgement of the Reapers.

Except in order to stop those conflicts, I didn't change everyones DNA on the grounds of a fallacy.

[Seival]

xlegionx wrote...

 @Seival:
Please stop ignoring the fact the only a minority of each cycle is harvested. Most are just outright killed by the Reapers or their husk armies. That is a greater genocide than killing a synthetic being made up of organic material ever could be.

Also, the Awakened collector is a bunch of crap. See conversation with Mordin: www.youtube.com/watch

Civilians are the vast majority in any modern society, and galactic civilization is not much different in that term. 

Most casualties galactic civilization suffered were among military, and it's the military job to fight and die. They got paid for that risk you know? They know what they signed for, and all possible consequences.

Also,


"When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by the Reapers."

...They are the part of game's lore now, and you can't ignore that. Awakened Collectors are not Synthesized (yet), but they are the strong proof that harvested lives can be restored... And obviously, Synthesis is much more than just awaking.

Modifié par Seival, 09 juin 2013 - 04:04 .

[IceHawk-181]

Seival wrote...
Most casualties galactic civilization suffered were among military, and it's the military job to fight and die. They got paid for that risk you know? They know what they signed for, and all possible consequences.

I missed the part in the canon where it was said London and Vancouver had no civilian population...
 

[AresKeith]

Seival trying to use MP for canon now? lol

[Dextro Milk]

Lol, medi-gel works on geth, pumpkin objectives for Halloween...

MP MUST BE CANON.

/sarcasm