926 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

If you resurrect them, they become an agonizing primordial sapient slurry, proving once and for all that the universe is made of cruelty so thick, you could cut through it with a butter knife. 

The idea of "resurrecting" husks and other various monsters is monstrous in itself. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 juin 2013 - 09:00 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Seival wrote...
We know what Synthesis does.

Considering how it's generally referred to as space magic and aside from vague statements about it from the Catalyst and slides in an epilogue with no explanations, details or specifics...no we don't really know exactly what it does. 

There's a very incredibly vague idea, but the whole concept is so poorly (never) explained.  We can all headcanon away, much like you do, but there are few to no cold hard facts regarding the mechanics and exact effects of the Synthesis beam.

Seival wrote...
doesn't postponed the genocide

Destroying what was already dead isn't genocide.  Whatever race that makes up each Reaper is long dead and have been for some time.

Seival wrote...
Awakened
Collectors prove that harvested can be released.

A vague 2-3 line character bio from the canonically questionable multiplayer side of the game that also includes mass produced Alliance EDIs, N7 characters that make Shepard seem like an average soldier, Turians with jet boots, and a Krogan with a bloody massive hammer that is seen nowhere else in the series.

That is shaky proof at the very best.  Especially after Mordin's examination and results on the Collectors...

Seival wrote...
And now it's in your power to release
the harvested, restore them as self-aware creatures, who possess the
memories of their past... not just restore, but also improve, because
Synthesis is much more than just a resurrection of harvested.

Yes I'm sure the Praetorians with the three dozen or so corpses in their bellies will be just fine. 
Or the Cannibals and Brutes that are made up of more than one corpse.
Or the Banshees that are in constant agony from the "modifications".

You might look at that and say, "oh they'll all be fine with it" but I look at is nothing short of something out of the minds of Clive Barker, John Carpenter and Tim Butron all mixed together.  Nightmarish.


And just how does one resurrect a puddle of goo?

You don't understand this, it is obvious. Let me try. Those that are made up of more than one corpse are now more than they were than when they were alive. Don't you see? They are two or three times or 10 times what they were. Why settle for less? Why would they even feel that they were inferior or monsters? They are ascended life.

And the banshees? They too are more than they were. Imagine having one of them on the Asari Olympic Basketball Team? Can they dunk? And now that they're no longer husks but aware, and improved they are better than they were. They are no longer Ardat Yakshi. The reapers did the Asari a favor by removing the Ardat Yakshi from the gene pool.

And what is inside the reaper isn't dead. It has been resurrected. It is improved especially if you make the right choice. People just aren't getting this. Death by slushie is reversible. How can the reapers be committing genocide when it is all reversible? And reversible to a higher level of awareness.

They are the future. They are our destiny. Ascension.

[Seival]

KaiserShep wrote...

If you resurrect them, they become an agonizing primordial sapient slurry, proving once and for all that the universe is made of cruelty so thick, you could cut through it with a butter knife. 

The idea of "resurrecting" husks and other various monsters is monstrous in itself. 

Synthesis epilogue and Awakened Collectors disprove your assumption.

Ex-Reaper ships that were built of millions of individuals feel themselves just fine:

[PerhapsDeadMaybeNot]

Mr. Selvel here seems to think that reapified people are hereby made alive...

lets check what what we know about synthesis

+We know that all synthetics and organics will be practically made of this so called new dna.
+We know that synthesis will perfect organics through technology, and synthetics will have an understanding of organics.
+We know that all organics and synthetics will be connected to one another, as claimed by edi
+and, supposedly, stops the organic/synthetic conflict even though we have no idea how new synthetics will have these improvements...which doesnt make a darn bit of sense.

How selvel can claim resurrection, that I have no idea....

maybe imagination?

[AresKeith]

Seival it's E3 time, stop this madness

[KaiserShep]

Seival,

I've watched the entire epilogue before, and I stand by my assertion. There's nothing in there that suggests that the life taken by the reapers can actually be reclaimed. What we DO know, however, is that they can retain information, memories and so forth. But storing memories and genetic information in a hybrid framework does not make those people alive; it makes them a semi-synthetic archive. The epilogue is kept particularly vague on this, and really, getting into the nitty gritty details would only damage it more, because it really would be horrific.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 juin 2013 - 09:27 .

[Seival]

PerhapsDeadMaybeNot wrote...

Mr. Selvel here seems to think that reapified people are hereby made alive...

lets check what what we know about synthesis

+We know that all synthetics and organics will be practically made of this so called new dna.
+We know that synthesis will perfect organics through technology, and synthetics will have an understanding of organics.
+We know that all organics and synthetics will be connected to one another, as claimed by edi
+and, supposedly, stops the organic/synthetic conflict even though we have no idea how new synthetics will have these improvements...which doesnt make a darn bit of sense.

How selvel can claim resurrection, that I have no idea....

maybe imagination?

What do we know about Synthesis?

(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore. In addition, that doesn't mean organics became half-synthetics or just synthetics. Instead that means organic "hardware" became advanced enough to have some of powerful properties of synthetic hardware. Organics remained organics, but become evolved. We see no synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.
(2) Synthetics gained full understanding of organics' way of thinking and emotions, i.e. stop being completely alien to organics.
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware. Ex-Reapers shared the knowledge of races they were made of.

The underlined part can be called resurrection of the harvested people.

[KaiserShep]

It can't be defined as "resurrection" unless their individual bodies can be reclaimed/reconstituted from the reaper erector set. There's nothing in the story that indicates this. Anything beyond that is pure head-canon. Per the norm, I guess. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 juin 2013 - 09:34 .

[Astartes Marine]

Seival wrote...
Ex-Reaper ships that were built of millions of individuals feel themselves just fine:

There is nothing in there about how they feel, IF they feel, their disposition, or whether they are simply giving the memories of the dead races or if they ARE the embodiment of the dead races.

Seival wrote...
What do we know about Synthesis?
(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore.

At which time was this ever specifically stated?  No headcanon or "interpretations", cold hard facts and a source please.

Seival wrote...
We see no
synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.

Aside from the glowing green circuits in everything including Joker's hat for some unfathomable reason.

Seival wrote...
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware. Ex-Reapers shared the knowledge of races they were made of.
The underlined part can be called resurrection of the harvested people.

Unless the bodies of all the individuals that made up each and every Reaper ship are recreated with all memories, personalities and organs intact, then no I would never in a million years call that "resurrection". 

Also this glosses over whatever unknown races were never made into Reapers and simply exterminated, along with all the sentients that Reaper forces just out and out shot to death, beat to death, blew up or burned.

[KaiserShep]

And again I see mention of the Awakened Collectors, which are basically just a lore-breaking gimmick created for multiplayer that never even so much as exist in a codex entry, despite how important such a thing would have to be to the story line. There's nothing that supports them canonically, so they're disregarded.

[xlegionx]

KaiserShep wrote...

And again I see mention of the Awakened Collectors, which are basically just a lore-breaking gimmick created for multiplayer that never even so much as exist in a codex entry, despite how important such a thing would have to be to the story line. There's nothing that supports them canonically, so they're disregarded.

According to Seival, the codex is bunk. Your argument is invalid.

[KaiserShep]

Ah, well up is down, black is white, and Diana Allers is actually the real commander of the Normandy.

[Astartes Marine]

xlegionx wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

And again I see mention of the Awakened Collectors, which are basically just a lore-breaking gimmick created for multiplayer that never even so much as exist in a codex entry, despite how important such a thing would have to be to the story line. There's nothing that supports them canonically, so they're disregarded.

According to Seival, the codex is bunk. Your argument is invalid.

...

How does one just go and disregard the Codex?  I mean if Seival is going to go that route that then I can just as easily disregard the Awakened Collectors. 

[xlegionx]

Astartes Marine wrote...

xlegionx wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

And again I see mention of the Awakened Collectors, which are basically just a lore-breaking gimmick created for multiplayer that never even so much as exist in a codex entry, despite how important such a thing would have to be to the story line. There's nothing that supports them canonically, so they're disregarded.

According to Seival, the codex is bunk. Your argument is invalid.

...

How does one just go and disregard the Codex?  I mean if Seival is going to go that route that then I can just as easily disregard the Awakened Collectors. 

He actually explained it to me, saying that it was outdated because it said that Harbinger was the leader of the Reapers, even though this was true to us until the last five minutes when StarBrat pops out. One poor example invalidating hundreds of other entries

Modifié par xlegionx, 11 juin 2013 - 10:00 .

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Seival wrote...

The definition is corresponding to realities of modern real world, but for the fictional sci-fi world like MEU it is incomplete.

I really don't know what to say.

If you redefine genocide to suit your position, it becomes essentially impossible to discuss it.

If "killing people" doesn't count as "killing people," then all three endings shouldn't count as genocide. But or some reason killing Reapers in self-defense does?

If the Reapers can bring back anyone who has ever died ever by making them into a Reaper, and absolve themselves accordingly, why can't we do the same? In a million years, the surviving species (now that progress and evolution don't get "interefered" with every 50K years) could have the technology to bring the Reapers back as a new species, making Destroy no more genocide than what the Reapers do.

Show me at least one individual who will want, and will 100% possess the power to bring the Reapers back after Destroy. If you will find any, let me know.

Synthesis is not just theoretical in ME3 - it is real in the story, and has a lot of fans. We know what Synthesis does. We know how to trigger it. We know it will 100% work as intended.

Just a desire is not enough to bring someone back. You have to possess the power to do so. So, basically, "maybe I will resurrect them one day, if I'll find out how" doesn't postponed the genocide, while "I will resurrect them - I possess the power to do so, and I have the desire to do so" - does.

Awakened Collectors prove that harvested can be released. Which means the original Catalyst has the power to release the imprisoned life even without Synthesis, but it obviously thinks it's not the time yet... that was before the final dialogue. And now it's in your power to release the harvested, restore them as self-aware creatures, who possess the memories of their past... not just restore, but also improve, because Synthesis is much more than just a resurrection of harvested.

EDIT: And I wonder, how many times the definition of genocide has already been redefined in reality.

The awakened collector has not been proven to be as he or iot was before it was harvested in terms of personality. It may just be a killing machine with the memories of an empire taken by the Reapers that it wishes to avenge......but cannot recall why.

And let us make an important distinction.

The memories that it is said to possess are a part of a living organism. It has organs that were not reduced to cells, and cells to atoms like the squishy inner bit of a Reaper. The collector's have brains in them. Reaper's have goop in them. Liquidised goop is not a brain in the same way that rotted fruit is not an apple or bannana. It's the remains of what once was, that can never be returned to it's former state.

Failure to recognise this important distinction allows for the embellishment of logic that dead people who were broken down into Reapers can come back to life. This is not supported by the narrative and is, at best, a work of fan fiction to further the consequences of synthesis when no such outcome was hinted at in the game.

[Redbelle]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


You don't understand this, it is obvious. Let me try. Those that are made up of more than one corpse are now more than they were than when they were alive. Don't you see? They are two or three times or 10 times what they were. Why settle for less? Why would they even feel that they were inferior or monsters? They are ascended life.

And the banshees? They too are more than they were. Imagine having one of them on the Asari Olympic Basketball Team? Can they dunk? And now that they're no longer husks but aware, and improved they are better than they were. They are no longer Ardat Yakshi. The reapers did the Asari a favor by removing the Ardat Yakshi from the gene pool.

And what is inside the reaper isn't dead. It has been resurrected. It is improved especially if you make the right choice. People just aren't getting this. Death by slushie is reversible. How can the reapers be committing genocide when it is all reversible? And reversible to a higher level of awareness.

They are the future. They are our destiny. Ascension.

I've seen the film Slither.

I'll pass thanks.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

If you resurrect them, they become an agonizing primordial sapient slurry, proving once and for all that the universe is made of cruelty so thick, you could cut through it with a butter knife. 

The idea of "resurrecting" husks and other various monsters is monstrous in itself. 

Synthesis epilogue and Awakened Collectors disprove your assumption.

Ex-Reaper ships that were built of millions of individuals feel themselves just fine:

For someone alive..... Edi's voice over sounds like she's dead inside. I'd expect a little more out of her...... but then again she's living under the thumb of the Catalyst idealised vision of the galaxy and emotion isn't the first thing the Catalyst would allow his minion army.

He's far to busy trying to prove that black is white...... and killing scores of innocent pedestrian's trying to cross the road to prove the theory.

And as for the Reaper knowledge? The Reaper may be sharing what they know. But that is not to say that the races that make up the gooey soft centre are alive and kicking. The Reapers may simply be conveying the understanding they took away with them once they massecured a population and incorporated the knoweldge into them. Essentially acting as a Reaper library guide to this dead race, while functioning as a coffin for that race.

[Seival]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Seival wrote...
Ex-Reaper ships that were built of millions of individuals feel themselves just fine:

There is nothing in there about how they feel, IF they feel, their disposition, or whether they are simply giving the memories of the dead races or if they ARE the embodiment of the dead races.

Seival wrote...
What do we know about Synthesis?
(1) Organics became fully integrated with synthetic technologies, which means they need no synthetic implants anymore.

At which time was this ever specifically stated?  No headcanon or "interpretations", cold hard facts and a source please.

Seival wrote...
We see no
synthetic materials crawling inside organic beings in Synthesis ending.

Aside from the glowing green circuits in everything including Joker's hat for some unfathomable reason.

Seival wrote...
(3) Reaper ships, husks, and VIs became self-aware. Ex-Reapers shared the knowledge of races they were made of.
The underlined part can be called resurrection of the harvested people.

Unless the bodies of all the individuals that made up each and every Reaper ship are recreated with all memories, personalities and organs intact, then no I would never in a million years call that "resurrection". 

Also this glosses over whatever unknown races were never made into Reapers and simply exterminated, along with all the sentients that Reaper forces just out and out shot to death, beat to death, blew up or burned.

You watch EC Synthesis, but ignore body language behind the soldier-and-a-husk scene. You ignore the facts that EDI tells/shows us. And above that all, you ignore the fact that corrupted self-aware creature can't act normally when shown in a video revealing the nature of the creature.

Try to see the meaning of soldier-and-a-husk scene, consider everything EDI said, and apply that knowledge to the ex-Reaper ships who act absolutely normal during the epilogue. Synthesis understanding requires some effort, believe me (initially I had the same opinion on the Synthesis as you right now).

...And do not forget about Awakened Collectors as well. They are part of the lore now. Awakened Collector's form differs from Prothean's form as much as human husk's form differs from human's form. But the form is always secondary to the personality... Robocop for example. Do you consider it as resurrected policeman? I do.

Modifié par Seival, 11 juin 2013 - 10:57 .

[R3MUS]

I am back, for a while. Just to get my never ending question answered.

Have we gotten any answer on if Harbinger, Sovereign and/or the other Reapers WERE AWARE of the Catalyst? Or were they just influenced by him? Did he DIRECTLY control the Reapers? I think he influenced them into thinking into this whole "saviour" theme. But they had kinda free will. Somewhat... I think.


Also...


What people seem to forget and say that stupid comment "we kill you organics to save you from creating synthetics that will kill you organics". The Reapers kills only the one who are nearest/closest to create synthetic lives. Leaving the younger ones alone, the more primal species. If synthetics had made it past like the Geth, they would had killed or enslaved ALL ORGANIC SPECIES.

[Redbelle]

Robo-Cop?

Alex Murphy was dead then resuscitated with hardware and tech to replace significantly damaged portions of his mind and body.

He was never reduced to goo and as such carried original memories that were repressed with blocks and trauma.

The important distinction to make between Robo and an Awakened Collector is that the collector has been messed around with genetically, as well as biotechnologically.

Robo was only altered through removal of organic componants and replaced with technological replacements. His mind, though tampered with. Retained it's original structure and memories. They could not mess with Robo's mind to much though. They needed a cop. And he was a cop before his murder. And they could not tamper to much with his brain as it continues to be an area that is delicate and complex.

Not so with collectors. While they may retain memories they have been biochemically altered and enhanced over the course of 50000 years and enthralled to serve Reapers. If a Prothean called Bill was turned into a collector 50000 years ago then we are being asked to accept that Bill the collector is 1. 50000 years old and 2. Do not adapt to their servitude given that they have been manufactured to be what the collectors want them to be.

As for the awakened collectors. The ones that were awakened could be the exception that proves the rule. That some collectors are unsuitable for conversion, yet were not picked up on during conversion. Which means they survived while all other regular collectors perished.

Ah. I forgot. Doesn't fit the Seiv model. Pity. Because even those who are studying the Higg's Bosun model of the universe have other models to fall back on if Higgs proves to be a non starter.

And yes, Alex Murphy was a ressurected policeman. Anyone who has seen the mini series Prime Directive knows that he regained all his memories and chose to be a cop. However, his conversion into Robo-cop and his re-emegence as Alex Murphy was well portreyed. Whereas the collector theory gave us a few paragraphs from which nothing more than conjecture, being passed off and pushed, hard, as fact has emerged. When the alternatives are just as possible, yet are systematically rejected for not being the one 'true' vision.

Collectors can function as programmed, without Reaper intervention, yet still possess the same fight routines being fuelled by memories. Those memories in turn could be clear or vague. Either way, rage is possible at the ones who did this to them / took their empire / reduced their sense of self to a base level and result in an urge to kill Reapers.

I don't think a collector would be much fun at dinner conversation's though.

And let us not forget, the description of the Awakened collectors is one that the exception's that fight the Reapers proves the rule. That if disconnected from the Reaper mind they cannot survive except for ones who possess an X factor that is not pre-dominant in the collector population.

Take a leaf from Javiks book. If they are the enemy, killing them is doing them a favour.

Modifié par Redbelle, 11 juin 2013 - 11:34 .

[KaiserShep]

R3MUS wrote...

I am back, for a while. Just to get my never ending question answered.

Have we gotten any answer on if Harbinger, Sovereign and/or the other Reapers WERE AWARE of the Catalyst? Or were they just influenced by him? Did he DIRECTLY control the Reapers? I think he influenced them into thinking into this whole "saviour" theme. But they had kinda free will. Somewhat... I think.


Also...


What people seem to forget and say that stupid comment "we kill you organics to save you from creating synthetics that will kill you organics". The Reapers kills only the one who are nearest/closest to create synthetic lives. Leaving the younger ones alone, the more primal species. If synthetics had made it past like the Geth, they would had killed or enslaved ALL ORGANIC SPECIES.

And yet, they were killing the Krogan too, despite them being among the least likely to ever create synthetics of their own. You can add the Rachni to that as well. They're certainly not going to bother making AI. Aside from those two, the reapers were also corrupting non-sapient life forms too, like the Harvesters. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 juin 2013 - 12:15 .

[Astartes Marine]

Seival wrote...
You watch EC Synthesis, but ignore body language behind the soldier-and-a-husk scene.

Up to interpretation, never clearly specified what happened there.  Interpretations can go thousands of different ways.

Seival wrote...
You ignore the facts
that EDI tells/shows us.

EDI says she is alive and that the Reapers share their knowledge.  A simple computer database shares it's knowledge too.

Seival wrote...
And above that all, you ignore the fact that
corrupted self-aware creature can't act normally when shown in a video
revealing the nature of the creature.

The fact that a corrupted self-aware creature can't act normally.  Actually I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said.  They can't act normally, normal no longer exists for them, normal will never again exist for them.  The Husks will be forever condemned to that hellish existence as twisted monstrosities.

Seival wrote...
Try to see the meaning of
soldier-and-a-husk scene, consider everything EDI said, and apply that
knowledge to the ex-Reaper ships who act absolutely normal during the
epilogue.

Define "normal".  They were moving and building stuff, both a mindless drone and a living breathing person can accomplish the same function. 

Seival wrote...
Synthesis understanding requires some effort, believe me
(initially I had the same opinion on the Synthesis as you right now).

I understand it well enough to know that I will never choose it. 
I will never subject the galaxy to servitude and slavery at the hands of the Leviathans. 
I will never force such a change on the entire galactic community without consent. 
I will never share the twisted view of life and liberty that you do. 
I reject this ending, I defy it.  Synthesis may be inevitable, but it will be achieved on our terms, not the Catalyst's and not the Reapers.

Seival wrote...
They are part of the
lore now.

So is the Codex and you just decide to ignore that because it doesn't fit your visions.

Seival wrote...
Robocop for example. Do you consider it
as resurrected policeman? I do.

HUGE DIFFERENCE. 
There is nothing left of the Protheans in the Collectors aside from basic DNA and even that was barely Prothean still.  All else, replaced by tech including the mind and soul.
Alex Murphy's brain and mind are intact, he is still alive just with an augmented body.  The body may be metal, but the mind and soul are still of man. 

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 12 juin 2013 - 12:12 .

[KaiserShep]

Comparing Robocop to synthesis? These are dark days indeed.

[Astartes Marine]

I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.

Bad form there Seival.