926 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Astartes Marine wrote...

I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.

Bad form there Seival.

This is from the person who considers the Earth, alive. Not life-bearing, not covered in life, but fully alive like an actual lifeform.

[Argentoid]

Red is good. Feels good.

[Ravensword]

KaiserShep wrote...

Comparing Robocop to synthesis? These are dark days indeed.

Yes. False equivalence, indeed.

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Robo-Cop?

Alex Murphy was dead then resuscitated with hardware and tech to replace significantly damaged portions of his mind and body.

He was never reduced to goo and as such carried original memories that were repressed with blocks and trauma.

The important distinction to make between Robo and an Awakened Collector is that the collector has been messed around with genetically, as well as biotechnologically.

Robo was only altered through removal of organic componants and replaced with technological replacements. His mind, though tampered with. Retained it's original structure and memories. They could not mess with Robo's mind to much though. They needed a cop. And he was a cop before his murder. And they could not tamper to much with his brain as it continues to be an area that is delicate and complex.

Not so with collectors. While they may retain memories they have been biochemically altered and enhanced over the course of 50000 years and enthralled to serve Reapers. If a Prothean called Bill was turned into a collector 50000 years ago then we are being asked to accept that Bill the collector is 1. 50000 years old and 2. Do not adapt to their servitude given that they have been manufactured to be what the collectors want them to be.

As for the awakened collectors. The ones that were awakened could be the exception that proves the rule. That some collectors are unsuitable for conversion, yet were not picked up on during conversion. Which means they survived while all other regular collectors perished.

Ah. I forgot. Doesn't fit the Seiv model. Pity. Because even those who are studying the Higg's Bosun model of the universe have other models to fall back on if Higgs proves to be a non starter.

And yes, Alex Murphy was a ressurected policeman. Anyone who has seen the mini series Prime Directive knows that he regained all his memories and chose to be a cop. However, his conversion into Robo-cop and his re-emegence as Alex Murphy was well portreyed. Whereas the collector theory gave us a few paragraphs from which nothing more than conjecture, being passed off and pushed, hard, as fact has emerged. When the alternatives are just as possible, yet are systematically rejected for not being the one 'true' vision.

Collectors can function as programmed, without Reaper intervention, yet still possess the same fight routines being fuelled by memories. Those memories in turn could be clear or vague. Either way, rage is possible at the ones who did this to them / took their empire / reduced their sense of self to a base level and result in an urge to kill Reapers.

I don't think a collector would be much fun at dinner conversation's though.

And let us not forget, the description of the Awakened collectors is one that the exception's that fight the Reapers proves the rule. That if disconnected from the Reaper mind they cannot survive except for ones who possess an X factor that is not pre-dominant in the collector population.

Take a leaf from Javiks book. If they are the enemy, killing them is doing them a favour.

There is no much difference between a Collector and initial Robocop, who was brainwashed and indoctrinated to follow a number of simple rules. And there is little difference between Awakened Collector and Awakened Alex Murphy. Both passed trough incredible physical and moral trauma. Both reclaimed their memories. Both understood they can't become who they were before, but preferred to move on no matter what...

...In case of Synthesis we see the same metamorphosis in the husks and Reaper ships. They became restored like Alex Murphy, like Briareos Hecatonchires, like Motoko Kusanagi, and who knows how many other fictional stories' characters.



And Javik is just a brainwashed and traumatized soldier of the past. He is very bad moral compass (at least for me).

[Seival]

Astartes Marine wrote...

I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.

Bad form there Seival.

When 90% of your original body is replaced by synthetic parts, you stop being "he" or "she".

If you want to find a mistake in Robocop, then you search in the wrong place. You should look at its name instead. It's not a Robocop, it's Cybercop in fact. It's a cyborg, not a robot.

Modifié par Seival, 12 juin 2013 - 09:17 .

[Seival]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.

Bad form there Seival.

This is from the person who considers the Earth, alive. Not life-bearing, not covered in life, but fully alive like an actual lifeform.

"it" is not an insult.
"it" means that subject is not a male or a female.

[Arcian]

Seival wrote...

And Javik is just a brainwashed and traumatized soldier of the past. He is very bad moral compass (at least for me).

>Seival calling someone brainwashed
My sides are now leaving the galaxy at 150 million times the speed of light.

[Seival]

StreetMagic wrote...

No, he was a he. Robocop remembered himself as Alex Murphy. He still had memories of his dead wife, and affection for his female partner as well.

Memories can't replace some particular parts of your body that are very vital for being "he" or "she".

Awakened Husk is "it".
Awakened Collector is "it".
Awakened Brute is "they".
Awakened Reaper ship is "they".

[Astartes Marine]

Seival wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.
Bad form there Seival.

When 90% of your original body is replaced by synthetic parts, you stop being "he" or "she".

You're full of ****, you know that?  Completely full of it. 

Genderwise sure he probably doesn't have all his bits anymore, but his mind is STILL that of Alex J. Murphy, his memories are STILL those of Alex J. Murphy and until those are gone he's STILL pretty much Alex J. Murphy just with alot of augmentations and prosthetics.

You're probably one of those people who'd refer to Commander Data as an "it" and not rightfully as a "he".<_<




And it's closer to 60-70%.  Most of the head and most of the torso is there, limbs are gone.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Robo-Cop?

Alex Murphy was dead then resuscitated with hardware and tech to replace significantly damaged portions of his mind and body.

He was never reduced to goo and as such carried original memories that were repressed with blocks and trauma.

The important distinction to make between Robo and an Awakened Collector is that the collector has been messed around with genetically, as well as biotechnologically.

Robo was only altered through removal of organic componants and replaced with technological replacements. His mind, though tampered with. Retained it's original structure and memories. They could not mess with Robo's mind to much though. They needed a cop. And he was a cop before his murder. And they could not tamper to much with his brain as it continues to be an area that is delicate and complex.

Not so with collectors. While they may retain memories they have been biochemically altered and enhanced over the course of 50000 years and enthralled to serve Reapers. If a Prothean called Bill was turned into a collector 50000 years ago then we are being asked to accept that Bill the collector is 1. 50000 years old and 2. Do not adapt to their servitude given that they have been manufactured to be what the collectors want them to be.

As for the awakened collectors. The ones that were awakened could be the exception that proves the rule. That some collectors are unsuitable for conversion, yet were not picked up on during conversion. Which means they survived while all other regular collectors perished.

Ah. I forgot. Doesn't fit the Seiv model. Pity. Because even those who are studying the Higg's Bosun model of the universe have other models to fall back on if Higgs proves to be a non starter.

And yes, Alex Murphy was a ressurected policeman. Anyone who has seen the mini series Prime Directive knows that he regained all his memories and chose to be a cop. However, his conversion into Robo-cop and his re-emegence as Alex Murphy was well portreyed. Whereas the collector theory gave us a few paragraphs from which nothing more than conjecture, being passed off and pushed, hard, as fact has emerged. When the alternatives are just as possible, yet are systematically rejected for not being the one 'true' vision.

Collectors can function as programmed, without Reaper intervention, yet still possess the same fight routines being fuelled by memories. Those memories in turn could be clear or vague. Either way, rage is possible at the ones who did this to them / took their empire / reduced their sense of self to a base level and result in an urge to kill Reapers.

I don't think a collector would be much fun at dinner conversation's though.

And let us not forget, the description of the Awakened collectors is one that the exception's that fight the Reapers proves the rule. That if disconnected from the Reaper mind they cannot survive except for ones who possess an X factor that is not pre-dominant in the collector population.

Take a leaf from Javiks book. If they are the enemy, killing them is doing them a favour.

There is no much difference between a Collector and initial Robocop, who was brainwashed and indoctrinated to follow a number of simple rules. And there is little difference between Awakened Collector and Awakened Alex Murphy. Both passed trough incredible physical and moral trauma. Both reclaimed their memories. Both understood they can't become who they were before, but preferred to move on no matter what...

...In case of Synthesis we see the same metamorphosis in the husks and Reaper ships. They became restored like Alex Murphy, like Briareos Hecatonchires, like Motoko Kusanagi, and who knows how many other fictional stories' characters.



And Javik is just a brainwashed and traumatized soldier of the past. He is very bad moral compass (at least for me).

Correction. There is a big difference between Robocop and a collector.

Parts of Robocop remained unchanged due to the complexity of the organic components, His mind may have been told one thing...... but his sense of self emerged on it's own. He began looking for his past identity with no prompting. An aspect of his humanity was required to be a superior law enforcement cyborg than the ED209 robot who could not distinguish the difference between an armed perp and a surrendering perpetrator.

Alex Murphy's trauma was one he recovered from by himself. His stroy is one of finding himself after intense tramua and having his rights as a human being trampled on in the desire to turn him from a man, into a product of OCP to be marketed. Demonstrating that people, in any form, are not for sale if they do not wish to be.

Motoko Kusanagi chose to become a cyborg as a neccessary part of her job and ultimately retained her humanity though from a different perspective that allowed for new possibilities to emerge. Yet she kept right on killing people for the sake of her countries security against terrorist's. She never lost the ability to think for herself. Her story is one of choice in the service to protect her country.

Briareos Hecatonchires had no choice but to become a cyborg after the explosion that nearly killed him left his body ruined. For any possibility of a quality of life he had to replace his dying shattered body with an artifical one. His action's and thoughts were never controlled at any point, allowing him to act as an independent at all times. His story is one of Augmentation through neccessity.

A collector is utterly...... utterly different than these 3 examples.

1. The collectors have been rebuilt and no longer resemble Protheans. On the outside, or internally. Saren's final transformation and the collectors are so similar that the collectors have been not only bioengineered, but technologically enhanced. Add to that the collector general's loss of purpose once Harbinger releases control and you see that they ultimately have very little resolve left in them. Instead of running or throwing up an arm to shield it's eye's, the CG takes an explosion to the face.

2. The awakened collectors are the exception that proves the rule. All collectors when released from control cannot survive. The few that do have no explanation for this. Yet they are a minority. To release all collectors is to consign the vast majority of them to death.

3. Javik's brainwashed? No. I have to correct you here.

At no time is Javik demonstrated to be under anyone elses influence. He demonstrates self awareness and recognition of the consequences of his actions. His outlook may be firmly set. But that is not the same as being brainwashed.

He may indeed be traumatized. However, his reaction to the event's he faces is no different than the calling he chose to take up in being both a soldier, and an Avatar of his people.

His moral compass is indeed skewed towards rejecting paragon acts. However, he provides reasoning behind his actions. This alone demonstrates a firm grasp of his situation and his reasons for wanting to resolve situations in a way he is comfortable with as a product of his upbringing.

Javiks a jerk. But he's neither brainwashed, nor demonstrates a loose grip on reality in his converations.

The only time he does let it slip is if you push him to use the memory shard. However, this is a player option. He can not view it and live, or view it and commit suicide. But it is one or the other. Not fixed as being one or the other. Therefore, his core personality can be described as stable. Unless anyone actively pushes him towards self harming........ in which case.  You should never work in a Samariton call centre!

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

No, he was a he. Robocop remembered himself as Alex Murphy. He still had memories of his dead wife, and affection for his female partner as well.

Memories can't replace some particular parts of your body that are very vital for being "he" or "she".

Awakened Husk is "it".
Awakened Collector is "it".
Awakened Brute is "they".
Awakened Reaper ship is "they".

Robocop kept his soul. It was buried, and had to recover. But his empathy and human desires won through.

Edi likewise found a little humanity in the way she chose to live her life. For others and selfless when it counted.

The problem you have yet to overcome is that even after al year, you still refuse to accept things beyond the physical. Actions can imply character. Reapers and husks kill for no reason. If they see you they attack you. No if's no buts.

Non Reapers and non husks have the choice to not attack, sneaking around without triggering combat.

The Reapers and husks are lacking in basic humanity. This results in people shunning them by referring to them as it. Edi however is accepted and referred to as She. Legion is referred to as a He. Xen get's a ticking off for referring to Legion as an It.

Xen lacks the humanity that Shepard and Legion share through trust and comradeship.

[Ravensword]

Still trying to compare Robocop to a Collector, Seival? Shame, shame.

Modifié par Ravensword, 13 juin 2013 - 02:18 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Seival wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

I'd like to add that Robocop is a HE, not an "it". He is a man augmented with machine parts.

Bad form there Seival.

This is from the person who considers the Earth, alive. Not life-bearing, not covered in life, but fully alive like an actual lifeform.

"it" is not an insult.
"it" means that subject is not a male or a female.

It is an insult when you confuse Robocop for a glorified husk.

[FlamingBoy]

One can only admire sevial dedication to the topic, he makes it about mass effect not the invisible "haters".

Also one the subject of the movie robocop, I have spoken to the powers at be over the planet we call earth...
They have concluded that its a excellent movie

[Ravensword]

Shall we now refer to Darth Vader as "it" since he is part machine?

[AresKeith]

FlamingBoy wrote...

One can only admire sevial dedication to the topic, he makes it about mass effect not the invisible "haters".

Also one the subject of the movie robocop, I have spoken to the powers at be over the planet we call earth...
They have concluded that its a excellent movie

At this point it's really hard to tell if he's actually trolling or truly believes what he's typing

Both are scary

[AlexMBrennan]

StreetMagic wrote...

His "bits" weren't removed. That's just a steel jockstrap. Do you see him using a colostamy bag? No.

I am not quite sure that that's how genetics work, although it would explain why he's fine with that "final stage of evolution" idea.

[Wayning_Star]

looks like Seival is attempting to get a firm grip on another intangible.

(good luck with that rofl

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Robo-Cop?

Alex Murphy was dead then resuscitated with hardware and tech to replace significantly damaged portions of his mind and body.

He was never reduced to goo and as such carried original memories that were repressed with blocks and trauma.

The important distinction to make between Robo and an Awakened Collector is that the collector has been messed around with genetically, as well as biotechnologically.

Robo was only altered through removal of organic componants and replaced with technological replacements. His mind, though tampered with. Retained it's original structure and memories. They could not mess with Robo's mind to much though. They needed a cop. And he was a cop before his murder. And they could not tamper to much with his brain as it continues to be an area that is delicate and complex.

Not so with collectors. While they may retain memories they have been biochemically altered and enhanced over the course of 50000 years and enthralled to serve Reapers. If a Prothean called Bill was turned into a collector 50000 years ago then we are being asked to accept that Bill the collector is 1. 50000 years old and 2. Do not adapt to their servitude given that they have been manufactured to be what the collectors want them to be.

As for the awakened collectors. The ones that were awakened could be the exception that proves the rule. That some collectors are unsuitable for conversion, yet were not picked up on during conversion. Which means they survived while all other regular collectors perished.

Ah. I forgot. Doesn't fit the Seiv model. Pity. Because even those who are studying the Higg's Bosun model of the universe have other models to fall back on if Higgs proves to be a non starter.

And yes, Alex Murphy was a ressurected policeman. Anyone who has seen the mini series Prime Directive knows that he regained all his memories and chose to be a cop. However, his conversion into Robo-cop and his re-emegence as Alex Murphy was well portreyed. Whereas the collector theory gave us a few paragraphs from which nothing more than conjecture, being passed off and pushed, hard, as fact has emerged. When the alternatives are just as possible, yet are systematically rejected for not being the one 'true' vision.

Collectors can function as programmed, without Reaper intervention, yet still possess the same fight routines being fuelled by memories. Those memories in turn could be clear or vague. Either way, rage is possible at the ones who did this to them / took their empire / reduced their sense of self to a base level and result in an urge to kill Reapers.

I don't think a collector would be much fun at dinner conversation's though.

And let us not forget, the description of the Awakened collectors is one that the exception's that fight the Reapers proves the rule. That if disconnected from the Reaper mind they cannot survive except for ones who possess an X factor that is not pre-dominant in the collector population.

Take a leaf from Javiks book. If they are the enemy, killing them is doing them a favour.

There is no much difference between a Collector and initial Robocop, who was brainwashed and indoctrinated to follow a number of simple rules. And there is little difference between Awakened Collector and Awakened Alex Murphy. Both passed trough incredible physical and moral trauma. Both reclaimed their memories. Both understood they can't become who they were before, but preferred to move on no matter what...

...In case of Synthesis we see the same metamorphosis in the husks and Reaper ships. They became restored like Alex Murphy, like Briareos Hecatonchires, like Motoko Kusanagi, and who knows how many other fictional stories' characters.



And Javik is just a brainwashed and traumatized soldier of the past. He is very bad moral compass (at least for me).

Correction. There is a big difference between Robocop and a collector.

Parts of Robocop remained unchanged due to the complexity of the organic components, His mind may have been told one thing...... but his sense of self emerged on it's own. He began looking for his past identity with no prompting. An aspect of his humanity was required to be a superior law enforcement cyborg than the ED209 robot who could not distinguish the difference between an armed perp and a surrendering perpetrator.

Alex Murphy's trauma was one he recovered from by himself. His stroy is one of finding himself after intense tramua and having his rights as a human being trampled on in the desire to turn him from a man, into a product of OCP to be marketed. Demonstrating that people, in any form, are not for sale if they do not wish to be.

Motoko Kusanagi chose to become a cyborg as a neccessary part of her job and ultimately retained her humanity though from a different perspective that allowed for new possibilities to emerge. Yet she kept right on killing people for the sake of her countries security against terrorist's. She never lost the ability to think for herself. Her story is one of choice in the service to protect her country.

Briareos Hecatonchires had no choice but to become a cyborg after the explosion that nearly killed him left his body ruined. For any possibility of a quality of life he had to replace his dying shattered body with an artifical one. His action's and thoughts were never controlled at any point, allowing him to act as an independent at all times. His story is one of Augmentation through neccessity.

A collector is utterly...... utterly different than these 3 examples.

1. The collectors have been rebuilt and no longer resemble Protheans. On the outside, or internally. Saren's final transformation and the collectors are so similar that the collectors have been not only bioengineered, but technologically enhanced. Add to that the collector general's loss of purpose once Harbinger releases control and you see that they ultimately have very little resolve left in them. Instead of running or throwing up an arm to shield it's eye's, the CG takes an explosion to the face.

2. The awakened collectors are the exception that proves the rule. All collectors when released from control cannot survive. The few that do have no explanation for this. Yet they are a minority. To release all collectors is to consign the vast majority of them to death.

3. Javik's brainwashed? No. I have to correct you here.

At no time is Javik demonstrated to be under anyone elses influence. He demonstrates self awareness and recognition of the consequences of his actions. His outlook may be firmly set. But that is not the same as being brainwashed.

He may indeed be traumatized. However, his reaction to the event's he faces is no different than the calling he chose to take up in being both a soldier, and an Avatar of his people.

His moral compass is indeed skewed towards rejecting paragon acts. However, he provides reasoning behind his actions. This alone demonstrates a firm grasp of his situation and his reasons for wanting to resolve situations in a way he is comfortable with as a product of his upbringing.

Javiks a jerk. But he's neither brainwashed, nor demonstrates a loose grip on reality in his converations.

The only time he does let it slip is if you push him to use the memory shard. However, this is a player option. He can not view it and live, or view it and commit suicide. But it is one or the other. Not fixed as being one or the other. Therefore, his core personality can be described as stable. Unless anyone actively pushes him towards self harming........ in which case.  You should never work in a Samariton call centre!

Awakened Collectors remember who they were. They reclaimed their memories (according to their description).

The form is secondary, the mind is primary. Someone can even have an ability to change forms at will (I just love shape-shifter classes in fantasy games), becoming completely different. Druids, Warlocks... changing forms doesn't stop them from being themselves.

It doesn't matter which new form did you receive and how, if you can accept this new form.
It doesn't matter if the change was permanent or temporary, if you can accept this new form.
I think therefore I am. This is what really matters.

There is no much difference between Awakened Collector, Alex Murphy, Motoko Kusanagi, and Briareos Hecatonchires. Each of them is strong individual, who was transformed and accepted the new form no matter the suffering they gone through.



Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

No, he was a he. Robocop remembered himself as Alex Murphy. He still had memories of his dead wife, and affection for his female partner as well.

Memories can't replace some particular parts of your body that are very vital for being "he" or "she".

Awakened Husk is "it".
Awakened Collector is "it".
Awakened Brute is "they".
Awakened Reaper ship is "they".

Robocop kept his soul. It was buried, and had to recover. But his empathy and human desires won through.

Edi likewise found a little humanity in the way she chose to live her life. For others and selfless when it counted.

The problem you have yet to overcome is that even after al year, you still refuse to accept things beyond the physical. Actions can imply character. Reapers and husks kill for no reason. If they see you they attack you. No if's no buts.

Non Reapers and non husks have the choice to not attack, sneaking around without triggering combat.

The Reapers and husks are lacking in basic humanity. This results in people shunning them by referring to them as it. Edi however is accepted and referred to as She. Legion is referred to as a He. Xen get's a ticking off for referring to Legion as an It.

Xen lacks the humanity that Shepard and Legion share through trust and comradeship.

Again this word... Soul has no meaning. It's just a beautiful word with no real purpose. If you mean "personality", then call it personality. If you still want to use some beautiful word instead of "personality", then you can use GITS term: "Ghost".

Also: http://www.youtube.c...DdVBFc7I#t=254s
...Looks like even Paragon Shepard and Tali disagree with you.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juin 2013 - 09:12 .

[Ravensword]

Was your soul replaced by tech, Seival?

[GreyLycanTrope]

And when you play the game a bit further Legion became a he. But hey development.

If robocop is anything it's the story of a man retaining both his idenity and humanity depite both his circumstance and the people that made him constantly telling him that he's property/just a machine with human memories.

If you don't get that you don't get robocop.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 juin 2013 - 09:42 .