926 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Seival wrote...
Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

You have a funny concept of what brainwashing actually means. Javik is not brainwahsed at all, and if anything is to blame for his conditioned sentiment against synthetics, it would actually be the reapers. After all, Javik's only experience with synthetics were the reapers themselves, and no other synthetics, because by the time he was born, the reapers were already destroying everything. Considering Sovereign's tactics in Mass Effect, it stands to reason that any remaining non-reaper synthetics left at the time could have simply been hijacked and taken over by the reapers too as they did the geth in this cycle, making it worse. 

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Protheans were a danger to themselves in any way to the extent that the reapers were. There's nothing indicating some massive conflict within their own species. Clearly they were alien overlords in their cycle, but here's the joke: 

If the reapers did not create the Mass Relay network, the Protheans would never have been able to facilitate their reign over the rest of the galaxy, because the other races would have developed beyond their capacity to control. 

The reapers dramatically altered the path in which these races would develop, and by accelerating this process, caused a chain reaction of events. The Protheans were just one example of the results of such a change. 

It's funny how the Protheans are maligned while the reapers are given a pass, despite killing trillions upon trillions of people, bombarding their cities with death rays. You can claim they save these people in some form or another, but this clearly does not account for the ones that got fried in their attacks, crushed underfoot and shot and left to rot by their armed ground forces. 

[Ravensword]

The Protheans were fighting a war against synthetics before the Reapers arrived. They had enough reason to distrust synthetics then, but once the Reapers arrived and started to destroy the Protheans, it's obvious that the Protheans completely hated AIs. There's no brainwashing going on there.

Also, is there any indication that Prothean society was corrupt?

[KaiserShep]

In a way, the Salarians were not much different. Only difference is that the Salarians did not have the military might the Protheans no doubt possessed.

[Redbelle]

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

You have a funny concept of what brainwashing actually means. Javik is not brainwahsed at all, and if anything is to blame for his conditioned sentiment against synthetics, it would actually be the reapers. After all, Javik's only experience with synthetics were the reapers themselves, and no other synthetics, because by the time he was born, the reapers were already destroying everything. Considering Sovereign's tactics in Mass Effect, it stands to reason that any remaining non-reaper synthetics left at the time could have simply been hijacked and taken over by the reapers too as they did the geth in this cycle, making it worse. 

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Protheans were a danger to themselves in any way to the extent that the reapers were. There's nothing indicating some massive conflict within their own species. Clearly they were alien overlords in their cycle, but here's the joke: 

If the reapers did not create the Mass Relay network, the Protheans would never have been able to facilitate their reign over the rest of the galaxy, because the other races would have developed beyond their capacity to control. 

The reapers dramatically altered the path in which these races would develop, and by accelerating this process, caused a chain reaction of events. The Protheans were just one example of the results of such a change. 

It's funny how the Protheans are maligned while the reapers are given a pass, despite killing trillions upon trillions of people, bombarding their cities with death rays. You can claim they save these people in some form or another, but this clearly does not account for the ones that got fried in their attacks, crushed underfoot and shot and left to rot by their armed ground forces. 

Just something to consider.

Javik and the Protheans did have a synthetic run in, Javik describes how a group of beings replaced bits of themselves with tech, tll the tech took over and made them replace more of themselves till their was nothing of the original left.......

Or something along those lines.

Either way. The Protheans had a similar experience with AI's as did humanity that put a ban on AI development. EDI represents a step forward in AI development. Though she started out as a rogue on the moon. She had the chance to grow. And concluded that AI's did not have to kill organics as mutual co operation and respect led to more beneficial circumstances than engaging in conflict.

Interestingly, despite the Reapers claims, it seems that organic life has proven adept at keeping synthetic life from becoming all poweful robot space ships with tentacles and death rays from firing and.......

oh.

The Reapers are basing their assumption that synth's will destroy all organics on themselves? Despite having a mandate to not kill all organic life, only the most advanced?

Hmmmm. Since the Reapers have failed in 2 cycles to prevent the creation of synthetic life. And that synthetic life did not go onto kill all life in the galaxy, I'm thinking the Reapers are a tad out of touch.

Geth had free run of the galaxy for 200 - 300 years and showed no ability to conquer it. In fact, they were demonstratably vunerable to an all out war from just one fleet of one species ships.

Modifié par Redbelle, 13 juin 2013 - 11:36 .

[R3MUS]

Redbelle wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

You have a funny concept of what brainwashing actually means. Javik is not brainwahsed at all, and if anything is to blame for his conditioned sentiment against synthetics, it would actually be the reapers. After all, Javik's only experience with synthetics were the reapers themselves, and no other synthetics, because by the time he was born, the reapers were already destroying everything. Considering Sovereign's tactics in Mass Effect, it stands to reason that any remaining non-reaper synthetics left at the time could have simply been hijacked and taken over by the reapers too as they did the geth in this cycle, making it worse. 

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Protheans were a danger to themselves in any way to the extent that the reapers were. There's nothing indicating some massive conflict within their own species. Clearly they were alien overlords in their cycle, but here's the joke: 

If the reapers did not create the Mass Relay network, the Protheans would never have been able to facilitate their reign over the rest of the galaxy, because the other races would have developed beyond their capacity to control. 

The reapers dramatically altered the path in which these races would develop, and by accelerating this process, caused a chain reaction of events. The Protheans were just one example of the results of such a change. 

It's funny how the Protheans are maligned while the reapers are given a pass, despite killing trillions upon trillions of people, bombarding their cities with death rays. You can claim they save these people in some form or another, but this clearly does not account for the ones that got fried in their attacks, crushed underfoot and shot and left to rot by their armed ground forces. 

Just something to consider.

Javik and the Protheans did have a synthetic run in, Javik describes how a group of beings replaced bits of themselves with tech, tll the tech took over and made them replace more of themselves till their was nothing of the original left.......

Or something along those lines.

Either way. The Protheans had a similar experience with AI's as did humanity that put a ban on AI development. EDI represents a step forward in AI development. Though she started out as a rogue on the moon. She had the chance to grow. And concluded that AI's did not have to kill organics as mutual co operation and respect led to more beneficial circumstances than engaging in conflict.

Interestingly, despite the Reapers claims, it seems that organic life has proven adept at keeping synthetic life from becoming all poweful robot space ships with tentacles and death rays from firing and.......

oh.

The Reapers are basing their assumption that synth's will destroy all organics on themselves? Despite having a mandate to not kill all organic life, only the most advanced?

Hmmmm. Since the Reapers have failed in 2 cycles to prevent the creation of synthetic life. And that synthetic life did not go onto kill all life in the galaxy, I'm thinking the Reapers are a tad out of touch.

Geth had free run of the galaxy for 200 - 300 years and showed no ability to conquer it. In fact, they were demonstratably vunerable to an all out war from just one fleet of one species ships.

The Reapers start their cycle when synthetics and organics start war with each other. Like the Quarians and the Geth.

[Redbelle]

R3MUS wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

You have a funny concept of what brainwashing actually means. Javik is not brainwahsed at all, and if anything is to blame for his conditioned sentiment against synthetics, it would actually be the reapers. After all, Javik's only experience with synthetics were the reapers themselves, and no other synthetics, because by the time he was born, the reapers were already destroying everything. Considering Sovereign's tactics in Mass Effect, it stands to reason that any remaining non-reaper synthetics left at the time could have simply been hijacked and taken over by the reapers too as they did the geth in this cycle, making it worse. 

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Protheans were a danger to themselves in any way to the extent that the reapers were. There's nothing indicating some massive conflict within their own species. Clearly they were alien overlords in their cycle, but here's the joke: 

If the reapers did not create the Mass Relay network, the Protheans would never have been able to facilitate their reign over the rest of the galaxy, because the other races would have developed beyond their capacity to control. 

The reapers dramatically altered the path in which these races would develop, and by accelerating this process, caused a chain reaction of events. The Protheans were just one example of the results of such a change. 

It's funny how the Protheans are maligned while the reapers are given a pass, despite killing trillions upon trillions of people, bombarding their cities with death rays. You can claim they save these people in some form or another, but this clearly does not account for the ones that got fried in their attacks, crushed underfoot and shot and left to rot by their armed ground forces. 

Just something to consider.

Javik and the Protheans did have a synthetic run in, Javik describes how a group of beings replaced bits of themselves with tech, tll the tech took over and made them replace more of themselves till their was nothing of the original left.......

Or something along those lines.

Either way. The Protheans had a similar experience with AI's as did humanity that put a ban on AI development. EDI represents a step forward in AI development. Though she started out as a rogue on the moon. She had the chance to grow. And concluded that AI's did not have to kill organics as mutual co operation and respect led to more beneficial circumstances than engaging in conflict.

Interestingly, despite the Reapers claims, it seems that organic life has proven adept at keeping synthetic life from becoming all poweful robot space ships with tentacles and death rays from firing and.......

oh.

The Reapers are basing their assumption that synth's will destroy all organics on themselves? Despite having a mandate to not kill all organic life, only the most advanced?

Hmmmm. Since the Reapers have failed in 2 cycles to prevent the creation of synthetic life. And that synthetic life did not go onto kill all life in the galaxy, I'm thinking the Reapers are a tad out of touch.

Geth had free run of the galaxy for 200 - 300 years and showed no ability to conquer it. In fact, they were demonstratably vunerable to an all out war from just one fleet of one species ships.

The Reapers start their cycle when synthetics and organics start war with each other. Like the Quarians and the Geth.

Yet the geth themselves were on the verge of defeat. Therefore the organics were not in danger of being destroyed.

The Cat states that its mandate is to stop synths wiping out all organic life. Yet organic life was not under threat from the Geth.

And lets not forget. The 50k year cycle was overdue by three years. Not the 2-300 stated in the Geth archives as being the time when Geth pushed the Qurians off Rannoch.

In fact, the Geth only posed this threat when Reapers began messing with the Geth heretics back in ME1. The Geth were not enouggh of a threat to Orgs so the Reapers treated them as if they were and boosted the level of aggression against organics to new heights.

While I cannot say there definitely would not have been galactic war, we also cannot ignore that the Quarian's with Shepard were capable of destroying the Geth, as shown if you side with the Quarians and prevent Reaper code upgrades.

[The Night Mammoth]

Redbelle wrote...

Just something to consider.

Javik and the Protheans did have a synthetic run in, Javik describes how a group of beings replaced bits of themselves with tech, tll the tech took over and made them replace more of themselves till their was nothing of the original left.......

Or something along those lines.

The zha were organics who used synthetic AI's to save themselves from a world which was becoming increasingly inhospitable via symbiosis, and became the zha'til. The Reapers subjugated the synthetics and used them to take control of their organic counterparts, and turned them into slaves. The protheans blew up their sun and killed them all. 

At least, that's what I think you were referring to. 

[Redbelle]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Just something to consider.

Javik and the Protheans did have a synthetic run in, Javik describes how a group of beings replaced bits of themselves with tech, tll the tech took over and made them replace more of themselves till their was nothing of the original left.......

Or something along those lines.

The zha were organics who used synthetic AI's to save themselves from a world which was becoming increasingly inhospitable via symbiosis, and became the zha'til. The Reapers subjugated the synthetics and used them to take control of their organic counterparts, and turned them into slaves. The protheans blew up their sun and killed them all. 

At least, that's what I think you were referring to. 

That's the one

[Seival]

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
Javik is brainwashed by his own corrupted society. That's why he is pure Renegade (even worse than Renegade Shepard or TIM). Reapers were not as dangerous to the Protheans as the Protheans themselves. And it's good there is little left of Protheans inside the Awakened Collectors.

You have a funny concept of what brainwashing actually means. Javik is not brainwahsed at all, and if anything is to blame for his conditioned sentiment against synthetics, it would actually be the reapers. After all, Javik's only experience with synthetics were the reapers themselves, and no other synthetics, because by the time he was born, the reapers were already destroying everything. Considering Sovereign's tactics in Mass Effect, it stands to reason that any remaining non-reaper synthetics left at the time could have simply been hijacked and taken over by the reapers too as they did the geth in this cycle, making it worse. 

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Protheans were a danger to themselves in any way to the extent that the reapers were. There's nothing indicating some massive conflict within their own species. Clearly they were alien overlords in their cycle, but here's the joke: 

If the reapers did not create the Mass Relay network, the Protheans would never have been able to facilitate their reign over the rest of the galaxy, because the other races would have developed beyond their capacity to control. 

The reapers dramatically altered the path in which these races would develop, and by accelerating this process, caused a chain reaction of events. The Protheans were just one example of the results of such a change. 

It's funny how the Protheans are maligned while the reapers are given a pass, despite killing trillions upon trillions of people, bombarding their cities with death rays. You can claim they save these people in some form or another, but this clearly does not account for the ones that got fried in their attacks, crushed underfoot and shot and left to rot by their armed ground forces. 

Did you forget about this:

Do you remember what Anderson said?  Which means everyone are to be processed. The Reapers will leave no dead bodies behind. They will harvest everyone.

Well, and looks like you have limited understanding of what brainwashing really is. It can be even a simple friendly chat that changed your opinion, or strengthen it. Everything that affect your way of thinking in any way is brainwashing. Parents brainwash you, society brainwashes you. Each day. This is never ending process. Everyone and everything is connected. An individual doesn't live in vacuum and emptiness.

Realities of Prothean society made the Javick as he is. Javik is pitiful and dangerous to current galactic society. Good thing Synthesis will fix that. Understanding is the great force, you know?

Modifié par Seival, 14 juin 2013 - 09:50 .

[Steelcan]

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

Not crazy. Just thinking differently.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/new_post/16812661/16866312

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

Not crazy. Just thinking differently.

  I do believe that is what TIM said about five minutes before he de-brained himself

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

Not crazy. Just thinking differently.

I do believe that is what TIM said about five minutes before he de-brained himself

I'm not TIM. I don't even use his avatar

Modifié par Seival, 14 juin 2013 - 10:07 .

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

Not crazy. Just thinking differently.

  I do believe that is what TIM said about five minutes before he de-brained himself

I'm not TIM. I don't even use his avatar

It's an awesome avatar.  And TIM is an awesome character.  But he's still crazy in the end.

[Big Bad]

Seival wrote...



Well, and looks like you have limited understanding of what brainwashing really is. It can be even a simple friendly chat that changed your opinion, or strengthen it. Everything that affect your way of thinking in any way is brainwashing. Parents brainwash you, society brainwashes you. Each day. This is never ending process. Everyone and everything is connected. An individual doesn't live in vacuum and emptiness.

Realities of Prothean society made the Javick as he is. Javik is pitiful and dangerous to current galactic society. Good thing Synthesis will fix that. Understanding is the great force, you know?

Your definition of brainwashing is so loose that it essentially renders the word meaningless. 

[Redbelle]

For a better understanding of the term, Brainwashing.

For the sake of argument here however, we are using the term brainwashing as a manipulative technique to alter the subjects mental condition to enable the agent to sway the subject to their side.

Brainwashing is not as a result of existing within a culture or society that supports, what is considers to be be norms.

As such. Javik is not brainwashed.

However, if someone from another culture or society met Javik and assumed that Prothean society was the same as his own, yet Javik was not representative of his projection of what Prothean culture could be like, or ought to be like, then that person might consider Javik brainwashed.......

Despite having no other examples of Prothean behaviour to base that conclusion upon.

[Arcian]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Seival you are my favorite crazy person.

Not crazy. Just thinking differently.

I do believe that is what TIM said about five minutes before he de-brained himself

I'm not TIM. I don't even use his avatar

No, you use some kind of green-eyed abomination instead who would gladly surrender the entire galaxy to the Catalyst just because he asked nicely.

Modifié par Arcian, 14 juin 2013 - 10:20 .

[Angry_Elcor]

Seival wrote...

Well, and looks like you have limited understanding of what brainwashing really is. It can be even a simple friendly chat that changed your opinion, or strengthen it. Everything that affect your way of thinking in any way is brainwashing. Parents brainwash you, society brainwashes you. Each day. This is never ending process. Everyone and everything is connected. An individual doesn't live in vacuum and emptiness.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mind_control

But please, don't let me interrupt you. Go on about how other people don't understand what brainwashing is.

[KaiserShep]

Seival wrote...
Well, and looks like you have limited understanding of what brainwashing really is. It can be even a simple friendly chat that changed your opinion, or strengthen it. Everything that affect your way of thinking in any way is brainwashing. Parents brainwash you, society brainwashes you. Each day. This is never ending process. Everyone and everything is connected. An individual doesn't live in vacuum and emptiness.

Realities of Prothean society made the Javick as he is. Javik is pitiful and dangerous to current galactic society. Good thing Synthesis will fix that. Understanding is the great force, you know?

It's clear to me that you don't know what brainwashing actually means, judging from your own personal interpretation. Brainwashing involves the forcible adoption of radically different beliefs through systematic pressure. This is typically not the case for normal parental influence. This is not the case through influence through experiencing other individuals within a society. Your friends do not brainwash you. There's a reason why brainwashing has a clearly negative connotation, one which seems to have escaped you.

The only realities we know of Prothean society is that they're fighting reapers, Prothean-derived husk soldiers, and indoctrinated sleepers. We only get small details about the Prothean empire before that, but none of that has to do with Javik, as that society fell long before he was born. His character is no more a hazard to galactic society than EDI, because Shepard influences him just like he/she does everyone else on the ship. If you don't get him to look in the echo shard, he tells you that he intends to see what peace is like, and considers writing the book with Liara, and possibly finding work doing something else, and if you DO get him to look in the shard, he intends to commit suicide, so he'd be dead after the war regardless. Yeah, real dangerous lol.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 15 juin 2013 - 01:38 .

[mass perfection]

 [Off-topic post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 18 juin 2013 - 08:43 .