I'll do what I want OP.
"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."
Débuté par
Seival
, juin 06 2013 09:29
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#52
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:23
xlegionx
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Auld Wulf wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] and outlandish [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] ideas.
This is exactly the problem, right here. I [omitted a key part of the other person's point to make it seem less valid].
The first instinct is to [attribute false characteristics to people I don't agree with]. [insult] [insult]
Two can play this game, Wulfie
Modifié par xlegionx, 07 juin 2013 - 08:18 .
#53
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:26
Arcian
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Lots and lots of conjecture without any evidence to support it there, Auld.
#54
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:27
Grandiam
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Hurbster wrote...
"I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good" - understatement of the bloody decade there.
Synthesis was a crap idea in Deus Ex:Invisible War and it's no better when Bioware ripped it off. After going through Earth, Palaven, Thessia you seriously telling me that any sane being would want to be space pals ? No way, blow them to hell and stick two fingers up at the Starbrat while you are doing it.
No one said synthesis would cause instant galactic peace and I don't have to make overtures of how horrible the Reaper War was.
#55
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:27
AresKeith
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Grandiam wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
Grandiam wrote...
Well you're not stupid I apologize, but why don't we need the Reapers?
I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good but I do understand why the Catalyst gave them their directive, if they were never around then the way things are in the ME universe would be drastically different, with either a Super-AI having destroyed all galactic life or another organic civilization enslaving other emerging life, as I said before.
Because that claim hasn't even been proven to happen, sure there's been conflict
PS: and Auld Wulf shows up insulting people, not shocked
The Geth were on their way to singularity before the Quarians invaded, and the Protheans did enslave the other organics of their cycle. The Geth focused on increasing their intelligence, by building bigger and bigger networks which would've gave them strength to overpower any organic race.
If the Protheans lost the Metacon War then the Catalyst would've been proven right, and if the Reapers didn't begin their harvest after the Protheans won that war, then they would've had no reason not to enslave the emerging life they were observing.
The Geth never wanted to attack Organics, Chris l'Etoile himself didn't want that for the Geth
The Protheans won the Metacon War which sorta goes against the Starbrat's claims
And Organics enslaving another organic race does not concern the Reapers at all
#56
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:27
Jukaga
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Slightly related question:
Who here would step into a quantum teleporter?
Who here would step into a quantum teleporter?
#57
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:28
Asharad Hett
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Auld Wulf wrote...
This is exactly the problem, right here. I added the bold text, obviously, to stress my point.Ravensword wrote...
Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] and outlandish [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] ideas.
The first instinct is to hate, rather than to understand. Wilfully ignorant. Wilfully stupid.
I understand just fine. Synthesis stinks. You should stop hating.
#58
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:29
masster blaster
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Seival wrote...
"If the essence of life is information carried in DNA, then society and civilization are just colossal memory systems and a metropolis like this one, simply a sprawling external memory."
This idea from the GITS: Innocence... it's genius. And recently I imagined - what if the Catalyst would say something like that?...
...Well, actually it said something like that, but differently. A Reaper is not just a harvester made of harvested lives. It is also a storage of colossal memory systems. Contained essence of life... in other words - preserved life. This means the Catalyst preserved life in each Cycle in two ways: made sure the new life will flourish, and the harvested lives were not wasted.
To be harvested by the Reapers is not to be killed.
The essence of Harvested people is still alive, preserved in the Reaper form.
Killing a Reaper is a crime. Crime equal to the genocide. And total disrespect of the ones who came before us.
Also how do we know ALL cycles were "GOOD" look at the Protheans......they aren't what you consider..."good"
Well you need to go to court then since you have killed Reapers.
Also ya living inside a Reaper is far worse than killing them.IMO
CRIME=Genocide?????? What kind of CRIME? I saved the galaxy from the Reapers, and the catalyst bs of a logic.
Modifié par masster blaster, 06 juin 2013 - 11:34 .
#59
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:34
IceHawk-181
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I assume Auld Wulf would be first in line for the liquefaction booth then?
#60
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:36
masster blaster
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AresKeith wrote...
The only good Reapers are dead Reapers
The only good bug is a dead bug.
Wait they are fish like beings.
The only good fish is a dead fish.
#61
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:38
KiwiQuiche
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I'm not about to let the space Cthulus eat me because to do so is an 'honour'. I quite like living as just me, I hate crowds.
#62
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:39
Ravensword
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Auld Wulf wrote...
This is exactly the problem, right here. I added the bold text, obviously, to stress my point.Ravensword wrote...
Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] and outlandish [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] ideas.
The first instinct is to hate, rather than to understand. Wilfully ignorant. Wilfully stupid.
You actually make it easier to hate, son.
#63
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:40
KiwiQuiche
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masster blaster wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
The only good Reapers are dead Reapers
The only good bug is a dead bug.
Wait they are fish like beings.
The only good fish is a dead fish.
Actually they are more like mollusks.
https://encrypted-tb...Elqi_ynInGeK_SA
#64
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:42
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Auld Wulf wrote...
Let's see if I can explain Seival's post in very simple terms, to see if I can attract the attention of those who seem to be wilfully ignorant. Maybe if I put it simply enough... maybe...
The bolded text is by me.
I did my best, Seival. You know how people are.
This all seems dependant on the assumption that Reapers aren't just storing genetic information, which as was previoiusly stated does nothing on its own, and that they are recreating actual beings within a virtual environment. It also assumes this virutal envrironment is superior to the current real environment. I'm not aware of any evidence which suggests this is what they are doing. All we know from really abstract attempts to explain them from Legion and the Reapers themselves is that they are a hybrid of organic and synthetic material and that they share information with each other and their individual components in extremely complex ways.
Also, for consideration on the debate about what information might or might not be and whether we are information or not: Buckland's Information as Thing. It's heavy on the library science end of things, but it has good thought kernals anyway.
#65
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:42
Grandiam
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AresKeith wrote...
Grandiam wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
Grandiam wrote...
Well you're not stupid I apologize, but why don't we need the Reapers?
I'm not saying the Reapers' methods are good but I do understand why the Catalyst gave them their directive, if they were never around then the way things are in the ME universe would be drastically different, with either a Super-AI having destroyed all galactic life or another organic civilization enslaving other emerging life, as I said before.
Because that claim hasn't even been proven to happen, sure there's been conflict
PS: and Auld Wulf shows up insulting people, not shocked
The Geth were on their way to singularity before the Quarians invaded, and the Protheans did enslave the other organics of their cycle. The Geth focused on increasing their intelligence, by building bigger and bigger networks which would've gave them strength to overpower any organic race.
If the Protheans lost the Metacon War then the Catalyst would've been proven right, and if the Reapers didn't begin their harvest after the Protheans won that war, then they would've had no reason not to enslave the emerging life they were observing.
The Geth never wanted to attack Organics, Chris l'Etoile himself didn't want that for the Geth
The Protheans won the Metacon War which sorta goes against the Starbrat's claims
And Organics enslaving another organic race does not concern the Reapers at all
Disregarding the Geth then, choosing to destroy the Reapers would destroy the Geth, which the Catalyst explains that eventually another AI will be created, and when that AI rebels it would know not to trust organics just by looking at history, continuing the synthetic/organic conflict.
Just because the Protheans won doesn't disprove anything the Catalyst said, what the Catalyst is trying to do is preserve life, whether it's synthetics overtaking organics or organics overtaking organics. The whole reason the cycles began is because the Catalyst saw how the Leviathans held the other races under its control.
#66
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:42
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*
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Doesn't Auld Wulf call people who don't like Synthesis 'subhuman'?
[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...
Oh Auld Wulf -- attack the person, never the argument. Do you have to be so subhuman? Is that your role in reality? I mean, honestly... I don't think I've ever seen one of you nasty little blighters attack one of my arguments rather than me myself.
It's no wonder I feel so magnanimous to Destroy fans, and so utterly disgusted by you and yours.
Welp, I get the high horse. I like the high horse. You can fling all the mud at me you like from down there.
[/quote][/quote]
Pathetic.
[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...
Oh Auld Wulf -- attack the person, never the argument. Do you have to be so subhuman? Is that your role in reality? I mean, honestly... I don't think I've ever seen one of you nasty little blighters attack one of my arguments rather than me myself.
It's no wonder I feel so magnanimous to Destroy fans, and so utterly disgusted by you and yours.
Welp, I get the high horse. I like the high horse. You can fling all the mud at me you like from down there.
[/quote][/quote]Pathetic.
Modifié par Finn the Jakey, 06 juin 2013 - 11:46 .
#67
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:43
masster blaster
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KiwiQuiche wrote...
I'm not about to let the space Cthulus eat me because to do so is an 'honour'. I quite like living as just me, I hate crowds.
In truth they are " dead" they are just genetic material, and nothing more.
the real question he should ask is do the Reapers deserve to live or die?
If you have them live, then your letting thousand of races live out their lives inside of a monster. Not to mention those races should have died a long time ago. If you kill them, you grant those races freedom. Ya I get it in synthesis they are " free" but this way they can die in peace.
#68
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:45
Jukaga
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KiwiQuiche wrote...
Actually they are more like mollusks.
https://encrypted-tb...Elqi_ynInGeK_SA
Cuttlefish are so f*cking cool, it's not even fair. There is an episode of Nova all about them, just amazing the things they can do with their hypnotic pigmentation. They 'indoctrinate' their prey.. hmmm.
#69
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:45
MrFob
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OP, I guess it all depends on your interpretation of life. I for one don't agree with the one you quoted. Life (especially sapient life) cannot be reduced to DNA. Our brains are highly plastic and their capacity to think rationally and irrationally, to feel and form a unique individual out of their genetic disposition as well as environmental influences and experience cannot be reduced to that level.
A sapient being is more than the sum of it's parts. An individual is also formed through the interaction with others. Therefore, society is also more than the summation of the biological markers of its individuals. It grows and changes through interaction, empathy and rivalry, love and hate, rational thought and irrational feelings. You may call all of that an external memory if you want but I don't think the reapers preserve all of the nuances of this phenomenon.
According to the indications seem in ME1,2 and 3 the reapers do not function like a society of individuals does. This may be due to the catalyst's control but the fact that reapers are vulnerable to this form of control (that, in fact, they were created a means to keep control onver them in the first place) is reason enough to stand against the idea.
Even Synthesis (from what we can see in the EC epilogue) fundamentally changes the interaction within the galactic society. It may just be my interpretation but according to what I have seen, it seems that a part of a persons individuality is lost. (And in the end, if it isn't, than Synthesis doesn't really accomplish that much, does it?)
Therefore, I can't condone a force change of every individual within society (by whatever means), based on the argument that their worth can be boiled down to fragment of one single all-encompassing meta-entity. I don't believe that's what we are.
A sapient being is more than the sum of it's parts. An individual is also formed through the interaction with others. Therefore, society is also more than the summation of the biological markers of its individuals. It grows and changes through interaction, empathy and rivalry, love and hate, rational thought and irrational feelings. You may call all of that an external memory if you want but I don't think the reapers preserve all of the nuances of this phenomenon.
According to the indications seem in ME1,2 and 3 the reapers do not function like a society of individuals does. This may be due to the catalyst's control but the fact that reapers are vulnerable to this form of control (that, in fact, they were created a means to keep control onver them in the first place) is reason enough to stand against the idea.
Even Synthesis (from what we can see in the EC epilogue) fundamentally changes the interaction within the galactic society. It may just be my interpretation but according to what I have seen, it seems that a part of a persons individuality is lost. (And in the end, if it isn't, than Synthesis doesn't really accomplish that much, does it?)
Therefore, I can't condone a force change of every individual within society (by whatever means), based on the argument that their worth can be boiled down to fragment of one single all-encompassing meta-entity. I don't believe that's what we are.
Modifié par MrFob, 06 juin 2013 - 11:46 .
#70
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:45
Guest_StreetMagic_*
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Even if they are dead, it's kind of stupid to not use their collective knowledge. The Reapers are like a Encyclopedia Galactica computer, a treasure trove of knowledge trapped in a lobster shell. I'll take what I can get. Sounds pretty useful, whether you go Synthesis or Control. Destroy is for players who think like the Krogan. That's my theory. They're addicted to fighting and war.. couldn't have it any other way.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 06 juin 2013 - 11:46 .
#71
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:45
IceHawk-181
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The reality, mitigating as much of the pseudo-scientific carp as possible, is that individuality is not retained in the transformation.
This is what happens when an organic lifeform is converted into a Reaper:
That doesn't look like the painful liquefaction of Kelly Chambers into an organic paste that is then pumped into a Reaper larva....no, that looks like a harmless medical process that is in some ways a kinder existence than normal life...those screams? Those were cries of joy...
The Reapers reduce specimens into organic material that retains the basic genetic material but violently and painfully kills the individual.
Those creatures that are not converted into a Reaper through this lovely process are either mercifully killed or gifted with the joy of being turned into a twisted, mindless, husk so they can be thrown against militaries as cannon fodder and sent against civilian populations as the graceful expression of altrusitic murderous rage.
I often wonder how people's opinions of the Reapers would be altered if during our jaunt on earth we got to watch scores of children happily converted into Reaper material or thrown against the squad as husks...
Give me a friggin break.
This is what happens when an organic lifeform is converted into a Reaper:
That doesn't look like the painful liquefaction of Kelly Chambers into an organic paste that is then pumped into a Reaper larva....no, that looks like a harmless medical process that is in some ways a kinder existence than normal life...those screams? Those were cries of joy...
The Reapers reduce specimens into organic material that retains the basic genetic material but violently and painfully kills the individual.
Those creatures that are not converted into a Reaper through this lovely process are either mercifully killed or gifted with the joy of being turned into a twisted, mindless, husk so they can be thrown against militaries as cannon fodder and sent against civilian populations as the graceful expression of altrusitic murderous rage.
I often wonder how people's opinions of the Reapers would be altered if during our jaunt on earth we got to watch scores of children happily converted into Reaper material or thrown against the squad as husks...
Give me a friggin break.
#72
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:47
KiwiQuiche
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Jukaga wrote...
KiwiQuiche wrote...
Actually they are more like mollusks.
https://encrypted-tb...Elqi_ynInGeK_SA
Cuttlefish are so f*cking cool, it's not even fair. There is an episode of Nova all about them, just amazing the things they can do with their hypnotic pigmentation. They 'indoctrinate' their prey.. hmmm.
They are certainly adorable. I wouldn't mind being reincarnated as one.
#73
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:48
masster blaster
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StreetMagic wrote...
Even if they are dead, it's kind of stupid to not use their collective knowledge. The Reapers are like a Encyclopedia Galactica computer, a treasure trove of knowledge trapped in a lobster shell. I'll take what I can get. Sounds pretty useful, whether you go Synthesis or Control. Destroy is for players who think like the Krogan. That's my theory. They're addicted to fighting and war.. couldn't have it any other way.
For who's gain? Is the galaxy ready for it? imo no. Also I don't think the Reapers shopuld be used at all. Your no better than the catalyst in Control, and your no better in having them live. It's like a final in**** like Mordin said in ME2 when you find out the Protheans are the collectors. Imo they shouldn't be used.
#74
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:48
AresKeith
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StreetMagic wrote...
Even if they are dead, it's kind of stupid to not use their collective knowledge. The Reapers are like a Encyclopedia Galactica computer, a treasure trove of knowledge trapped in a lobster shell. I'll take what I can get. Sounds pretty useful, whether you go Synthesis or Control. Destroy is for players who think like the Krogan. That's my theory. They're addicted to fighting and war.. couldn't have it any other way.
Couldn't be more wrong
#75
Posté 06 juin 2013 - 11:49
Kel Riever
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Auld Wulf wrote...
This is exactly the problem, right here. I added the bold text, obviously, to stress my point.Ravensword wrote...
Seival, you are the worst spokesperson for the Synthesis group by virtue of having really creepy [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] and outlandish [from my limited, pop-culture based perspective] ideas.
The first instinct is to hate, rather than to understand. Wilfully ignorant. Wilfully stupid.
Off topic much? Arrogant, just like you claim others are. Arrogant and willfully stupid yourself.
Anyway, since you are posting uselessly, as usual, I'll bring this back on topic. The OP is stretching with massive headcannon, which is fine. But it is neither factual, necessarily intended, nor does it mean the story isn't a failure. With the amount of work the OP did, someone could write their own story from beginning to end. Which would be better than what was paid for in ME3. In other words, the OP is doing the work that BioWare should have.
